All-time Fantasy Draft - KM v Thisistheone

Who will win based on players in their prime, team tactics, balance & bench strength?

  • Total voters
    42
Thisistheone said:
In fairness to KM & myself we had a lot of comments right from the off. A lot of people gave their opinions so we responded. Quotes like "Busquets instead of Sammer or Bozsik is terrible, probably done to win votes but it's probably lost mine." (So in this case KM was spot on to change because he then ended up winning this persons vote.)
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Make a sub to get a vote? So early in the game? Mental IMO.

And Luis Enrique started because I anticipated KM wouldn't line up with wingers directly opposing my fullbacks therefore I could afford to play Enrique, who is so versatile & plays midfield often, he would be comfortable when pushing up.

When tactics are changed, you as a manager respond. I seen Nedved pushed wide left so that prompted me to then remove Luis Enrique
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You removed Luis Enrique after Nedveed had been switched to midfield. I see no reason why Luis Enrique couldn't deal with him out wide to begin with anyway. You don't deserve him! :mad: He is now in the showers cursing his luck that you drafted him before my last turn, he has great memories playing for Team Antohan.

This has been a very well contested match imo and both of us have done well.
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I think you picking Cruyff started a cock-sizing competition between both of you and now you are landed with sides which are still not the finished article, great players of the same nationalities in the same areas and both with relatively average (by this standards) players also in the same areas. Can't see much room for significant improvement and it will be a graveyard for some of the finest players in the draft. Pity.
 
Make a sub to get a vote? So early in the game? Mental IMO.
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When you see such a strong opinion voiced and then more of the same, you react to it. When you play tomorrow now, and fall behind by 8 votes instantly, you'll be tempted to make a change as well. And if NM makes tactical change, you'll be a tempted to respond.

You removed Luis Enrique after Nedveed had been switched to midfield. I see no reason why Luis Enrique couldn't deal with him out wide to begin with anyway. You don't deserve him! :mad: He is now in the showers cursing his luck that you drafted him before my last turn, he has great memories playing for Team Antohan.
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No, Nedved is currently in midfield, he was left wing after the 2nd change. I should know, I've been watching it all day. And you're contradicting yourself by saying I see no reason why Enrique couldn't deal with him and then also agree with posters who say it was mad to start with him. Which is it?

I think you picking Cruyff started a cock-sizing competition between both of you and now you are landed with sides which are still not the finished article, great players of the same nationalities in the same areas and both with relatively average (by this standards) players also in the same areas. Can't see much room for significant improvement and it will be a graveyard for some of the finest players in the draft. Pity
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Picking the best players will always start that off, like when you picked one of the best of all time in Beckenbauer. What was I suppose to do, sit back quietly and pick Carlos Gamarra while you lot get the best players? Not a chance.
 
Beckenbauer was a no brainer for Antohan, you should've gone for Breitner IMO burin fairness, picking Cruyff probably won you this match.
 
Fergus' son said:
Beckenbauer was a no brainer for Antohan, you should've gone for Breitner IMO burin fairness, picking Cruyff probably won you this match.
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Well thats the beauty of the draft. I second guess when picking Breitner. He was my 1st choice, I looked at the 2 who were to go after me (KM & Dan) and seen they didn't need him but Sammer caught me out with the East German West German rule so I changed tactics and went for Cruyff, hoping if I won this game I'd get Breitner anyway.
 
Thisistheone said:
Well thats the beauty of the draft. I second guess when picking Breitner. He was my 1st choice, I looked at the 2 who were to go after me (KM & Dan) and seen they didn't need him but Sammer caught me out with the East German West German rule so I changed tactics and went for Cruyff, hoping if I won this game I'd get Breitner anyway.
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I see, yeah that east German thing came out of nowhere for me too!
 
Thisistheone said:
When you see such a strong opinion voiced and then more of the same, you react to it. When you play tomorrow now, and fall behind by 8 votes instantly, you'll be tempted to make a change as well. And if NM makes tactical change, you'll be a tempted to respond.
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Been there before, tinkered tactics yes, but no subs. You can't sub a player out of contention based on such limited feedback (unless you wholeheartedly agree with it, which I imagine he did as his starting midfield was a joke). Improving the midfield was the right call, but not sure he needed to take Robben off so quickly.

No, Nedved is currently in midfield, he was left wing after the 2nd change. I should know, I've been watching it all day. And you're contradicting yourself by saying I see no reason why Enrique couldn't deal with him and then also agree with posters who say it was mad to start with him. Which is it?
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Where the feck did I say that? Look it up, no chance I did, none at all. I'm probably Luis Enrique's biggest fanboi in the entire caf, even more than FCBarca. Keane with goals.

He switched Nedved to midfield at 4:12, you subbed off Luis Enrique at 5PM, it's right there posted on the thread, no need to be around all day.

Picking the best players will always start that off, like when you picked one of the best of all time in Beckenbauer. What was I suppose to do, sit back quietly and pick Carlos Gamarra while you lot get the best players? Not a chance.
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I'm not saying it's your fault, Cruyff was very tempting! What I'm saying is KM responded to that on the same basis and you two ended up embroiled in a chase for stars over a finished side. In fairness, you've come out of it setup better than he did. He has tied himself up in knots quite badly though.
 
Fergus' son said:
I see, yeah that east German thing came out of nowhere for me too!
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Do you reckon I should have stated it when he was picked? There was never a good time to clarify it so I thought it was best to leave the manager to work it out and when/if he did... BOOM!
 
antohan said:
Do you reckon I should have stated it when he was picked? There was never a good time to clarify it so I thought it was best to leave the manager to work it out and when/if he did... BOOM!
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Doesn't matter either way really, surprised you didn't go for him though!

Which other Germans could that have worked with?
 
Ulf Kirsten, Thomas Doll, Andreas Thom. Can't think of anyone else right now.
 
Balu said:
Ulf Kirsten, Thomas Doll, Andreas Thom. Can't think of anyone else right now.
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Bloody hell, only Sammer was worth it then really right? Don't know any of those.

I pretty sure KM wasn't even sure of this little loophole when picking, must've been delighted when he found out!
 
Fergus' son said:
Bloody hell, only Sammer was worth it then really right? Don't know any of those.

I pretty sure KM wasn't even sure of this little loophole when picking, must've been delighted when he found out!
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Indeed he was. ;)

Thom and Doll were decent players, no place in a draft like this. Dorner was a reasonable option.

As for the match, I can see Maradona ripping Busquets to bits. But equally Messi and Ronaldo would make light work of Thisistheone's back four. It's a hard one to call, I'd like to see KM with a 4-1-3-2 with Breitner and Nedved flanking Sammer and Bozsik.
 
Yes of course, thought that was obvious. You could know Kirsten, though. He played for more than a decade for Leverkusen, has 100 caps for his nationalteams (49 for East, 51 for West germany), was 3 times topscorer in the Bundesliga and played in that CL final in 2002 against Real Madrid. But of course, not good enough for any draft game, let alone an all time draft.
 
Gio said:
Indeed he was. ;)

Thom and Doll were decent players, no place in a draft like this. Dorner was a reasonable option.

As for the match, I can see Maradona ripping Busquets to bits. But equally Messi and Ronaldo would make light work of Thisistheone's back four. It's a hard one to call, I'd like to see KM with a 4-1-3-2 with Breitner and Nedved flanking Sammer and Bozsik.
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Yeah, that actually sounds great.
 
Balu said:
Yes of course, thought that was obvious. You could know Kirsten, though. He played for more than a decade for Leverkusen, has 100 caps for his nationalteams (49 for East, 51 for West germany), was 3 times topscorer in the Bundesliga and played in that CL final in 2002 against Real Madrid. But of course, not good enough for any draft game, let alone an all time draft.
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Ah yes, I remember.
 
@Anto, Posts have been edited then cos Nedved was definitely left wing in a 433 at some point.

My plan before the game was to play Irwin and Lahm if I thought he would have wingers. I then decided, after much thinking, that KM wouldn't go with wingers so put L.Enrique in. For me, Irwin or Lahm, a natural full back is better suited vs a winger directly. An opinion in which The Religion agreed on, (and I thought you agreed with TR but apologies I was mistaken.)

My real grumble was TR saying the whole match has been over shadowed by the poor manager's, which is absolute bollocks. As I've just spent my night explaining certain decisions hopefully now people can see that there is method behind our thinking and we're not a couple of amateurs plucking players names out of the air, hoping for the best.
 
Don't worry, TR's just bitter ever since he got pumped out of the 70s draft(?).
 
antohan said:
I think you picking Cruyff started a cock-sizing competition between both of you and now you are landed with sides which are still not the finished article, great players of the same nationalities in the same areas and both with relatively average (by this standards) players also in the same areas. Can't see much room for significant improvement and it will be a graveyard for some of the finest players in the draft. Pity.
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Not sure about that mate. If Thisistheone manages to fend off KM and win this match then he could add Scirea and Breitner, two great additions to his team. Centre mid would still be a tad weak, but that defence would look infinitely better.
 
Fergus' son said:
Doesn't matter either way really, surprised you didn't go for him though!

Which other Germans could that have worked with?
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Fergus' son said:
Bloody hell, only Sammer was worth it then really right? Don't know any of those.

I pretty sure KM wasn't even sure of this little loophole when picking, must've been delighted when he found out!
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I was very clear about it from the outset, wrote the rules with his specific case in mind. When I thought about the Eastern block it came to mind. Struck me that only Sammer was worth it and in a wa, for that very reason presented a nice hidden gem for someone to find.

Initially the idea was not to pick him (can you imagine the shitstorm? guy making the rules has written them so he gains an advantage?) but as the draft went by I got increasingly tempted. To his credit, Aldo agreed it was not a great idea and that if we picked him we should stick to him as German... so that was it for me.

What I did not know was that ultimately it would cost me Ronaldo. I'm quite positive he would have gone about things a different way otherwise.
 
Thisistheone said:
My plan before the game was to play Irwin and Lahm if I thought he would have wingers. I then decided, after much thinking, that KM wouldn't go with wingers so put L.Enrique in. For me, Irwin or Lahm, a natural full back is better suited vs a winger directly. An opinion in which The Religion agreed on, (and I thought you agreed with TR but apologies I was mistaken.)
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I agree against proper wingers that is the case, but don't consider Nedved a proper winger myself, more of a left midfielder or AM/inside-left at most. Luis Enrique could deal with that IMO.

I understood you played him not expecting wingers but Nedved was not worth ditching him, should have stuck up for him. Now he looks suspect when he is actually a formidable player, much more worthy of being on this draft than either of your fullbacks (albeit, not as one).

The very reason I wanted him was he can shore up almost any weakness or area lacking in manpower. AM/CM/DM, left/centre/right, that gives you options and a player who offers that must be cherished and portrayed for the cracking player he is, not suffer the ignominy of being shipped out early in the game.

This is nothing but constructive criticism, mind.

My real grumble was TR saying the whole match has been over shadowed by the poor manager's, which is absolute bollocks. As I've just spent my night explaining certain decisions hopefully now people can see that there is method behind our thinking and we're not a couple of amateurs plucking players names out of the air, hoping for the best.
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Well, initially he just said the squad/man management was a bit shambolic which is not far off if you reread the first couple of pages with a cool head. Re-read it in a couple of weeks and you will see his point, you are too involved now.
 
Theon said:
Not sure about that mate. If Thisistheone manages to fend off KM and win this match then he could add Scirea and Breitner, two great additions to his team. Centre mid would still be a tad weak, but that defence would look infinitely better.
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Scirea? Why? He needs to replace Blanc first and foremost, not Cannavaro. I would pick Ronaldo and stick Luis Enrique on the right before I got anywhere near Scirea.

Remember there's only one pick after the semi, will three be enough once you allow for nationalities hindering picks? Not for the side to be complete, but you never know... I expect some will be so tempted to add quality they may throw currently excellent sides out of kilter.
 
He does need to upgrade Blanc but the option isn't there. Cannavaro isn't good enough to win the draft, I'm not sure how he's viewed on the Caf but he's been vastly overrated during his career and not a patch on someone like Nesta.

Don't see the point in Ronaldo when he'll lose Garrincha, his attack his already lethal it's defence he needs to improve. Would you get Breitner?
 
Theon said:
He does need to upgrade Blanc but the option isn't there. Cannavaro isn't good enough to win the draft, I'm not sure how he's viewed on the Caf but he's been vastly overrated during his career and not a patch on someone like Nesta.

Don't see the point in Ronaldo when he'll lose Garrincha, his attack his already lethal it's defence he needs to improve. Would you get Breitner?
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Lots of swings and roundabouts that will only be clear if he is through and once he knows who comes up next.

Breitner is always on the cards for me and was all set to be an early pick of mine. Lovely player.
 
Breitner was my first choice last time but lost out on him so if I get to the semi he is definitely getting picked. My other replacement would be a centre back most likely. Too much of a Weah fan to drop him. Think he's just brilliant.

And anto, I've slept on it & you're right. All in the moment, just defending myself and my players. No worries but what is this meltdown Gio speaks of in the 70's draft? Sounds insane.
 
I've also slept on it and still think he's wrong. Think he's a smart arse by dropping comments like that inspite of having a meltdown of epic proportions by himself.
 
Thisistheone said:
Breitner was my first choice last time but lost out on him so if I get to the semi he is definitely getting picked. My other replacement would be a centre back most likely. Too much of a Weah fan to drop him. Think he's just brilliant.

And anto, I've slept on it & you're right. All in the moment, just defending myself and my players. No worries but what is this meltdown Gio speaks of in the 70's draft? Sounds insane.
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Well you do have the option of dropping Maradona and playing Messi up front with already having two other top names in the attacking third, but I don't think you would cross that line.
 
As a pair, Messi and Ronaldo are certainly the biggest nightmare for centerbacks with average speed.
 
Even the quickest of centerbacks will have trouble in dealing with them, specially Ronaldo. Nesta was pretty quick off the mark but he was beaten a fair number of times by the Brazilian. The only sure way of stopping a player like Ronaldo is completely cutting off his supply and make sure nothing reaches him in and around the penalty area, else you are bound to get punished. It's not just pace, but one hell of a powerful shot without any sort of backlift. The keeper rarely got any time to react when he took shots from outside the box.
 
Ronaldo is one of the best forwards but overall he's not the best player on this pitch. I'd put Maradona, Cruyff, Garrincha & Messi ahead of him.
 
Tough to say really. As a forward he has everything you can ask for, and it is not really fair to bring Messi and Maradona into the equation who have gone far beyond the rest. I think Garrincha and Ronaldo can be put on the same level as both were absolutely unstoppable with the ball, albeit in different roles and ways.
 
Of course. Different players and I love Ronaldo but from the various pieces I read and documentaries I watched on Garrincha it seems that our view in Europe is somewhat different to those in Brazil. They seem to rate Pele and Garrincha as fighting it out for number one player in Brazil and along with Maradona, of all time. And the rest are a level or two below.
 
Thisistheone said:
Breitner was my first choice last time but lost out on him so if I get to the semi he is definitely getting picked. My other replacement would be a centre back most likely. Too much of a Weah fan to drop him. Think he's just brilliant.

And anto, I've slept on it & you're right. All in the moment, just defending myself and my players. No worries but what is this meltdown Gio speaks of in the 70's draft? Sounds insane.
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KM said:
I've also slept on it and still think he's wrong. Think he's a smart arse by dropping comments like that inspite of having a meltdown of epic proportions by himself.
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I actually found it was a funny comment which suited the situation. It was never going to go down well with you two surely. But he wasn't singling either of you, which would have been out of order. I know how it feels when in the dugout though!

The start of the meltdown. He actually was right to some extent, everyone seemed to be voting for Dan's effort putting an all-Brazil side together rather than that side actually being better than his. Then he went out and both Dan and I ended up picking all the star players he had been banging on about and they instantly turned into world beaters in our team :lol:

He just spent a few weeks moaning it was all rigged and screwed up and no one knew nothing, etc. Quite funny at the time. Surprised it has shaped people's views of him in such a long-lasting way.

BTW, KM, watch out, he PMd me yesterday that he is ready to come out of retirement as soon as there's another draft. :nervous:
 
Yeah this will be my last draft. This takes too much time and I'm a disaster at these things!
 
Thisistheone said:
Of course. Different players and I love Ronaldo but from the various pieces I read and documentaries I watched on Garrincha it seems that our view in Europe is somewhat different to those in Brazil. They seem to rate Pele and Garrincha as fighting it out for number one player in Brazil and along with Maradona, of all time. And the rest are a level or two below.
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That's mostly bias. There's nothing not to love about Garrincha, everything about him is either something Brazilians love or identify with. And then there's the sadness of how it all ended up with him.

With a cold and calculating football mind he is nowhere near Pelé or Maradona. Wouldn't have him in the Top 10, most likely not even 20, but the heart tells you otherwise.
 
This tickled me from the 70's thread:

TR
Bloody ridiculous this, really is.

My team is going to be the worst in the group when I have the best centre halves in the draft, one of the best forwards in the world and a number 10 rivaled only by Zidane!
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MikeUpNorth

The manager's the weak link.
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Guess TR has also been through his fair share of stick in the past!
 
I seem to have caused quite stir in this thread by simply being honest, although perhaps Glenn Roeder and Peter Taylor were a little harsh. I still stand by the fact this contest has been spoilt by the managers getting too involved too early.

The 70's draft still boils my blood to this day. Mike the spastic up North was clearly a wum though.
 
That is nonsense mate. Rui Costa has proved his worth domestically and internationally. The other players you speak of (Rivaldo, Del Piero, Totti) haven't to the same degree.
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Blatants untruths can't have helped but I see the meltdown was already in full swing by then!

You definitely should've won that though, it was clearly the Ronaldo factor that decided it.
 
Fergus' son said:
Blatants untruths can't have helped but I see the meltdown was already in full swing by then!

You definitely should've won that though, it was clearly the Ronaldo factor that decided it.
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Dan was getting brownie points for fielding an all-Brazilian lineup as well, quite a feat I have to say. To some extent the argument was "that's almost exactly a side that won a World Cup"... except it lacked Rivaldo and Ronaldinho and instead had Juninho Paulista and Pernambucano IIRC :smirk:
 
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