ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

[Rood]

That depends how much success on the pitch costs them. It may be that finishing 4th every season makes them a bigger profit than chasing after big name buys/increasing the wage bill.

A successful club which is reguarly winning honours is always going to be more valuable than a team which finishes 4th every season.
Of course, the ideal scenario for them is to be successful without spending obscene amounts of money like what we see at City or Madrid. And personally I much prefer this type of 'organic' success versus the 'plastic' success that we see at Chelsea.

Again, not true. Making the most money out of ticket sales is actually what they want. If prices are increased significantly and the attendance reduced marginally, I'm sure they'd go for that. They certainly don't care about whether seats are full or not.

Yes that is correct, but selling out the stadium will generally be the best way of acheiving that.
Of course it is true that they dont actually care whether those seats are used or not as long as they are sold. However, we should remember that they also make money from fans buying food and merchandise so there is a monetary incentive to keep get as many people in the ground as possible as well.

Anyway we dont need to talk about the theory as in this case ticket price policy over the last couple of years has backed up my viewpoint.
Demand for tickets fell to the point where most of the excess demand has gone and therefore prices were frozen - I have been saying this would happen for a couple of years and there were those who argued against me saying that the Glazers would keep increasing prices regardless of demand.
Yet again I have been proven correct !

Again, it's a cost/benefit decision. If by spending £80m on, say, Kaka will increase merchandise and TV rights by, say, 5% it's not worth it for them.

Of course, when you look at specifics it is going to be a cost benefit decision but on a general level it is always going to be in the Glazers interests to make sure we have a strong squad which is in contention for top honours. Personally, I believe we currently have a very strong squad - I am aware that others do not agree.

All these factors are interlinked anyway - full stadium, success, strong squad etc - here we are discussing the specifics seperately, but on a general level I believe these aims are integral to the Glazer business plan.
As I said before, their motivations are very different to that of the fans and if you look at specifics then you will find differences as you have pointed out - but if you look at the big picture then there is clearly a lot of shared interests.

 

[ralphie88]

A successful club which is reguarly winning honours is always going to be more valuable than a team which finishes 4th every season

Of course. But the question is whether the additional value is in excess of what you have to spend to achieve that. If we can increase the value of the club by 5% by winning the CL for eahc of the next 5 seasons, it's still not worth it for the Glazers if they have to spend £100m in net terms in the transfer market during that period.

Of course, the ideal scenario for them is to be successful without spending obscene amounts of money like what we see at City or Madrid. And personally I much prefer this type of 'organic' success versus the 'plastic' success that we see at Chelsea.

Or the "plastic success" we had in the early 90s as a result of our wild spending? Personally I enjoyed that just as much as when we were winning stuff with our yoof team.

Of course it is true that they dont actually care whether those seats are used or not as long as they are sold. However, we should remember that they also make money from fans buying food and merchandise so there is a monetary incentive to keep get as many people in the ground as possible as well.

Non-ticket matchday income is a pittance, though Rood. Merchandising is of course a bigger deal, but (a) it's split with Nike, and (b) again, the amount they make on a matchday I bet is a tiny percentage of their overall income from that stream. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have increased the numbers of STs.

Anyway we dont need to talk about the theory as in this case ticket price policy over the last couple of years has backed up my viewpoint. Demand for tickets fell to the point where most of the excess demand has gone and therefore prices were frozen - I have been saying this would happen for a couple of years and there were those who argued against me saying that the Glazers would keep increasing prices regardless of demand. Yet again I have been proven correct !

Oh behave, and get your ego under control while you're at it.

We simply don't know why the Glazers froze ticket prices. Could be the recession, could be the drop in demand, could have been the rumours of a boycott, could have been the protests and adverse PR, could have been the new overseas TV money coming in. Could have been a combination of all of those factors.

Anyway, who said that the Glazers would keep increasing prices across the board when they stopped selling out?

As I said before, their motivations are very different to that of the fans and if you look at specifics then you will find differences as you have pointed out - but if you look at the big picture then there is clearly a lot of shared interests.

My interests as a fan are to be able to go and watch the matches with my mates, many of whom now can't afford tickets. They are to experience a good atmosphere in a full stadium of happy fans. They are to see my team continue to bid for the best players on the planet, not play second fiddle to the likes of Real and City. They are to see my team financially secure. They are to see the money I put into the club being invested in the club.

If the Glazers share any of those interests, they're going a funny way of showing it!

 

[TheMancRedDevil]

@Ralphie

But the question is whether the additional value is in excess of what you have to spend to achieve that. If we can increase the value of the club by 5% by winning the CL for eahc of the next 5 seasons, it's still not worth it for the Glazers if they have to spend £100m in net terms in the transfer market during that period.

Makes sense in some ways but doesn't that apply to ANY owners of ANY club? Why don't 95% of teams out there spend £100million net over a five year period?

The fact is that whatever our net spend has been over the last five years, it has been enough not only to increase the value of the club but also to maintain our status as one of the top clubs in Europe. Do you not think that the Glazers will try to continue to do this in the future? On what grounds?

Whatever money spent by the Glazers will have to be generated from within the framework of their business model. It is plainly obvious now that they won't be dipping into their own pockets to supplement the transfer budgets with external monies but, who would want to run like this anyway? It has been proven time and time again that it is not a recipe for long-term stability and success.

The "wild spending" of the early 90s came about due to funds coming into the club from the floatation on the stock exchange - there was nothing "plastic" about it - it was real money generated by the business plan of the time.

I was having a discussion with someone else about the cost of winning the PL versus the cost of finishing 3rd or 4th every season and the argument that the amount of extra investment required to win it is greater than the monetary returns and so finishing 3rd or 4th might be a more desirable scenario for the owners but I think it falls down on a couple of counts.

1) Attempting to spend "just enough" to finish 3rd or 4th would be a very dangerous game - what if you fall short and end up 5th? How much would THAT cost the club?

2) If clubs are required by the FFP regs to live within their means then could we not find a situation where ALL the top clubs are trying to maximise income and are so ALL trying to ensure 3rd or 4th place finishes? We can't ALL finish 3rd or 4th - someone has to win the League - even if it ends up being by default.

In short, surely the idea is to provide the manager with everything possible to ensure that we go into each season with a squad capable of winning trophies but if we fall short and finish 2nd or even 3rd - well, no big deal from a financial point of view.

Besides - it has proven time and time again that simply spending money doesn't guarantee success and, indeed, can create its own problems and become counter-productive when it goes to extreme levels.

On the subject of ticket prices, you say:-

We simply don't know why the Glazers froze ticket prices. Could be the recession, could be the drop in demand, could have been the rumours of a boycott, could have been the protests and adverse PR, could have been the new overseas TV money coming in. Could have been a combination of all of those factors.

That's supply and demand, Ralphie. There are a multitude of factors that go towards determining the price of the tickets and those things you mention are just some of them.

My interests as a fan are to be able to go and watch the matches with my mates, many of whom now can't afford tickets. They are to experience a good atmosphere in a full stadium of happy fans. They are to see my team continue to bid for the best players on the planet, not play second fiddle to the likes of Real and City. They are to see my team financially secure. They are to see the money I put into the club being invested in the club.

Being completely callous here but who's responsibility is it to ensure that you can afford to go and watch your favourite football team? Yours or the Glazers? We've discussed this issue to death and I can't see any fairer way (to ALL fans - not just you and your mates) of ensuring that as many people as possible can get their hands on STs. The level at which you and your mates could afford to go might still be too expensive for others - should the price be dropped further to allow them to afford tickets?

And then, despite wanting to put less money into the club, you still want us to be bidding for the "best players on the planet". Where will this money come from? From other sources of income that comes into the club? Why should the Glazers do that? Why should they forego their own share in order to subsidise the transfer budget?

Would YOU do that? I mean, really, really, really? If you were in charge, would you halve ticket prices and supplement the shortfall with £50million of your OWN money? I dunno.

It has already been demonstrated that it could be argued that something along these lines is already happening as the wage bill is currently approx £20million more than matchday income (i.e. it could be argued that every penny that goes into the club from the fans is used to fund the team and then some).

What you are doing is saying that all the other money that comes into the club (TV, prize, commercial etc) is also "fans money" and should be invested in the team because... well, because you say so.

Can you not see why a club owner might not share that view?

In an alternate reality where the fans own the club then maybe this would happen, granted but that's not the way things are at the moment.

As for second fiddle to the likes of Real Madrid and Manchester City, I think you will find that we have always played second fiddle to Real Madrid in terms of transfer spend (they and other top European sides have spent far more than us for as far back as I can remember) so nothing has really changed in the real world, you just seem to be looking at the past with the rose tinted specs a bit here when we regularly had the likes of Zidane, Figo, Maradona and Platini playing for us.

I also cannot see for the life of me how Real Madrid can spend so much money on players - they are certainly not operating on a level playing field in that respect.

City are also just a ridiculous case of a team operating on a completely uneven playing field and to put them up as some kind of comparison is grossly unfair - no one in the world (whoever their owner) can really compete with City in terms of transfer kitty at the moment.

 

[Rood]

Of course. But the question is whether the additional value is in excess of what you have to spend to achieve that. If we can increase the value of the club by 5% by winning the CL for eahc of the next 5 seasons, it's still not worth it for the Glazers if they have to spend £100m in net terms in the transfer market during that period.

Well I do agree that when you get into specifics that it will always be a cost/benefit decision for them as they are motivated by money. However, my general point is simply that it is in the Glazers interests to create a successful club because they are likely to make more money that way.

Or the "plastic success" we had in the early 90s as a result of our wild spending? Personally I enjoyed that just as much as when we were winning stuff with our yoof team.

Personally I wouldnt call our spending in the 90s 'wild' and it mostly certainly wasnt on the obscene level of what City or Madrid are doing nowadays - we did spend a relatively high amount of money in British terms but we never came close to the level of spending that was going on across Europe (most notably Italy at the time). So I think you are doing the club a disservice by refering to that early success as 'plastic'!

Oh behave, and get your ego under control while you're at it.

We simply don't know why the Glazers froze ticket prices. Could be the recession, could be the drop in demand, could have been the rumours of a boycott, could have been the protests and adverse PR, could have been the new overseas TV money coming in. Could have been a combination of all of those factors.

Anyway, who said that the Glazers would keep increasing prices across the board when they stopped selling out?

Ultimately I believe it is down to demand, which in turn is affected by a combination of the factors that you mention.

I specifically remember Brad arguing that they would keep putting up prices even if it meant empty seats - in your face Bradley

My interests as a fan are to be able to go and watch the matches with my mates, many of whom now can't afford tickets. They are to experience a good atmosphere in a full stadium of happy fans. They are to see my team continue to bid for the best players on the planet, not play second fiddle to the likes of Real and City. They are to see my team financially secure. They are to see the money I put into the club being invested in the club.

If the Glazers share any of those interests, they're going a funny way of showing it!

Well I did note that ticketing policy was the main area where the interests of our fans and the owners are not aligned. I am hopeful that the drop in ticket demand will result in the club taking more notice of what the matchgoer wants, but Im not holding my breath for radical change!
Apart from a couple of exceptions, I dont believe we have ever been in the market for the best players on the planet - it is just not Fergies way to buy 'Galacticos' and I wouldnt want it any other way.
As you know, I believe the club is financially secure and that for me is the number 1 priority above all others. After that, as long as I see enough investment in the team to make sure we can compete on all fronts then I am mostly satisfied.

 

[Shane B]

As you know, I believe the club is financially secure.

No we're not.

We're hugely in the red when we were always in the black.

The Glazers are using our cash to line their pockets.

feck Off with your reasonable debate.. we're being turned over, we're not fecking secure.. and they need to go.

 

[TheMancRedDevil]

No we're not.

We're hugely in the red when we were always in the black.

The Glazers are using our cash to line their pockets.

feck Off with your reasonable debate.. we're being turned over, we're not fecking secure.. and they need to go.

Naa... could be worse. We could have those jokers who own Liverpool.

Imagine being a 'Pool supporter right now? Not only have their owners fecked them over, they are in severe danger of finding themselves in mid-table mediocrity at a time when mid-table mediocrity needs to be avoided like the plague (just before the FFP regs come in).

Compared to many clubs I could mention, we're in pretty good shape right now.

 

[Julian Denny]

It will be interesting to see how the club handles a period of decline on the pitch. Not spending money on the team because of a tight budget - except for moderate expenditure on "ones for the future" - is already starting to have an effect. It seems we are no longer talked of as a major power in European football and if we continue our somewhat dismal away form in the EPL, before long we wll be cast as also rans domestically as well.

Arsenal have shown the way by improving their financial position over the last few years despite no trophies. United will have to do the same and maybe because of different dynamics - including greater expectations and financial obligations - we may find it more difficult.

It's a far from rosey picture unfortunately.

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

It will be interesting to see how the club handles a period of decline on the pitch. Not spending money on the team because of a tight budget - except for moderate expenditure on "ones for the future" - is already starting to have an effect. It seems we are no longer talked of as a major power in European football and if we continue our somewhat dismal away form in the EPL, before long we wll be cast as also rans domestically as well.

Arsenal have shown the way by improving their financial position over the last few years despite no trophies. United will have to do the same and maybe because of different dynamics - including greater expectations and financial obligations - we may find it more difficult.

It's a far from rosey picture unfortunately.

That's a pretty negative post for you? No longer seen as a major European power? Dismal away form? Also rans in the league?

Garbage.

 

[ciderman9000000]

feck Off with your reasonable debate.

I really respect this kind of attitude; if only more of us were such incomprehending knuckle-draggers as is Shane then all our problems would be over.

 

[anver]

That's a pretty negative post for you? No longer seen as a major European power? Dismal away form? Also rans in the league?

Garbage.

Of course we are no more seen as a major European power. Even the Valencia match today is tilted in favour of the home side. And we have shown what a dismal away form we have. Not yet also rans in the league, though.

But the fact remains that we have no money to spend on team rebuilding. Apart from Berba, we have not been able to buy any decent established player. We failed to even hold on to a versatile player like Tevez.

The Tevez fiasco is now in the open. What I heard is that despite Tevez's repeated requests in January 2009, to give him a new contract by buying him off Kia, we did nothing. We did not have the money then. That alerted Sparky, who tapped Kia, and offered him the asking price and a huge wage
for Tevez. Naturally Tevez's head was turned towards City. By the time we got the Ronaldo money, it was too late.

Some of the young unknown players we have bought are, I fear, only for grooming, and training. Like buying horses and trained to race. They, too, will be sold if a good offer comes along. I hope I am wrong. The next few months will show where we stand, when the profit statements and balance sheet come out.

Again, I hope I am wrong. But the writing is on the wall.

 

[Julian Denny]

That's a pretty negative post for you? No longer seen as a major European power? Dismal away form? Also rans in the league?

Garbage.

Not so fast with your garbage jibe! Time will tell. You've probably not noticed through your rose tinted specs but we've already slipped badly in most pundits estimations. For me, it's clear we are not sufficiently competitive to challenge certainly Chelsea at home and quite a few clubs in Europe.

Of course I'm hoping Fergie will prove me wrong but at the moment it doesn't look like it.

 

[ciderman9000000]

Of course we are no more seen as a major European power. Even the Valencia match today is tilted in favour of the home side. And we have shown what a dismal away form we have. Not yet also rans in the league, though.

As Rich said, this is complete garbage. We had a good run in Europe last year, reached the final the year before, and won it the year before that; if you think we're not considered a major force then you're fecking delusional.

As for the league, yes our away form hasn't been great, but we're only six matches in ffs! If you want to start reading too much into the early season form-book then you could say too that we're unbeatable, we're going to win every single home game and we'll not score less than two goals in a match until the end of time.

When one considers the reasons for our three away draws you look even more of an idiot; what has the owners or our finances have to do with a few late-on defensive clangers or Rooney's current poor form? You're just talking shit.

But the fact remains that we have no money to spend on team rebuilding. Apart from Berba, we have not been able to buy any decent established player. We failed to even hold on to a versatile player like Tevez.

We've got 'established' players in every position on the pitch, we've got bags of age and experience and SAF, as per usual, is looking for the next star player rather than just going out and buying someone else's ready made. Notice too how you slipped in 'apart from Berba'? You can add Valencia to that. "Apart from when it rains it never rains."

The Tevez fiasco is now in the open. What I heard is that despite Tevez's repeated requests in January 2009, to give him a new contract by buying him off Kia, we did nothing. We did not have the money then. That alerted Sparky, who tapped Kia, and offered him the asking price and a huge wage
for Tevez. Naturally Tevez's head was turned towards City. By the time we got the Ronaldo money, it was too late.

What you heard? feck off, let's stick to what we know.

Some of the young unknown players we have bought are, I fear, only for grooming, and training. Like buying horses and trained to race. They, too, will be sold if a good offer comes along. I hope I am wrong. The next few months will show where we stand, when the profit statements and balance sheet come out.

Training horses to race sounds a pretty decent plan towards winning horse races to me. What the feck are you on about?

 

[anver]

As Rich said, this is complete garbage. We had a good run in Europe last year, reached the final the year before, and won it the year before that; if you think we're not considered a major force then you're fecking delusional.

As for the league, yes our away form hasn't been great, but we're only six matches in ffs! If you want to start reading too much into the early season form-book then you could say too that we're unbeatable, we're going to win every single home game and we'll not score less than two goals in a match until the end of time.

When one considers the reasons for our three away draws you look even more of an idiot; what has the owners or our finances have to do with a few late-on defensive clangers or Rooney's current poor form? You're just talking shit.



We've got 'established' players in every position on the pitch, we've got bags of age and experience and SAF, as per usual, is looking for the next star player rather than just going out and buying someone else's ready made. Notice too how you slipped in 'apart from Berba'? You can add Valencia to that. "Apart from when it rains it never rains."



What you heard? feck off, let's stick to what we know.



Training horses to race sounds a pretty decent plan towards winning horse races to me. What the feck are you on about?

As expected, a hysterical and abusive response from a juvenile.

I have said what I think, and if you disagree, its your right.

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

Not so fast with your garbage jibe! Time will tell. You've probably not noticed through your rose tinted specs but we've already slipped badly in most pundits estimations. For me, it's clear we are not sufficiently competitive to challenge certainly Chelsea at home and quite a few clubs in Europe.

Of course I'm hoping Fergie will prove me wrong but at the moment it doesn't look like it.

I'm sure that not being the best club side in the world means we aren't a European power anymore. We go to Valencia tonight without Valencia, giggs, scholes and Rooney and with Anderson, carrick and Ferdinand coming back from injury. That's why it's a far more dangerous game than usual. I doubt we'd have gone there three years ago expecting to win.

 

[ciderman9000000]

It gets on my nerves this shit. You'd think that with the success we've had over recent years and with the wealth of exciting young talent at the club playing amongst some of the most highly regarded senior masters of the game, challenging for the world's most prestigious trophies every year, and winning most years, that our fans would be fecking happy. Instead all we seem to want to do is whinge and moan about the owners and complain about how shit the squad is and how we're on the decline, we're broke and everybody's laughing at us as we stand, staring into the brink every season like a bunch of depressing spoilt brats. Well it wouldn't surprise me if opposition fans are laughing; laughing because though we've got everything they dream of, we still find reason to bloody moan about it. fecking humans, they get on my nerves, man.

 

[Julian Denny]

As expected, a hysterical and abusive response from a juvenile.

I have said what I think, and if you disagree, its your right.

I am afraid it's the trouble with a forum like this. Yes you do get some who are prepared to debate in a civilised and sensible manner but unfortunately there are also quite a few who think they need to be aggressive and abusive just because their views don't correspond with yours. I think they're best ignored.

 

[Stavros]

Not so fast with your garbage jibe! Time will tell. You've probably not noticed through your rose tinted specs but we've already slipped badly in most pundits estimations. For me, it's clear we are not sufficiently competitive to challenge certainly Chelsea at home and quite a few clubs in Europe.

Just becuase Chelsea's recent success overshadowed us, it does not necessarily mean that we are in the decline. None in the footballing world (apart from our own fans) has written us off from title race yet. As regards your Arsenal comment, when we play them most pundits would be gambling on us winning at OT and draw at Emirates. No way Arsenal is a better team than us. Decline would be better suited to describe the scousers than us.

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

Anver, Julian. Just so I understand, who are the current European powers if we aren't one?

 

[topper]

Not so fast with your garbage jibe! Time will tell. You've probably not noticed through your rose tinted specs but we've already slipped badly in most pundits estimations. For me, it's clear we are not sufficiently competitive to challenge certainly Chelsea at home and quite a few clubs in Europe.

Of course I'm hoping Fergie will prove me wrong but at the moment it doesn't look like it.

I expected a post like this from some young snot but not from you JD. We only lost the PL last by one point are only six games into the new season - lying second to Chelsea by 3 points. We are unbeaten and you're already complaining.

As for pundits opinions what do they know and more importantly which intelligent fan cares a toss what they think - how many times have pundits written Fergie and United off and been proved idiots.

FFS engage your well aged brain objectively

 

[Stavros]

But the fact remains that we have no money to spend on team rebuilding. Apart from Berba, we have not been able to buy any decent established player. We failed to even hold on to a versatile player like Tevez.

What fact? Both sides are arguing based on assumptions and our own calculations. Maybe Fergie is right, maybe we are bankrupt, but this is all speculation. There are no facts.

The Tevez fiasco is now in the open. What I heard is that despite Tevez's repeated requests in January 2009, to give him a new contract by buying him off Kia, we did nothing. We did not have the money then. That alerted Sparky, who tapped Kia, and offered him the asking price and a huge wage
for Tevez. Naturally Tevez's head was turned towards City. By the time we got the Ronaldo money, it was too late.

There is no way Tevez would have stayed to play second fiddle to Berba. Even if we had paid the money, he would have demanded a starting priority, which was not in Fergie's gameplan. Either way he would have left.

Some of the young unknown players we have bought are, I fear, only for grooming, and training. Like buying horses and trained to race. They, too, will be sold if a good offer comes along. I hope I am wrong. The next few months will show where we stand, when the profit statements and balance sheet come out.

Again, I hope I am wrong. But the writing is on the wall.

Arsenal has been doing this and are regarded a well run club. We do the same and writing is on the wall. Talk about double standards.

 

[ciderman9000000]

As expected, a hysterical and abusive response from a juvenile.

I have said what I think, and if you disagree, its your right.

Look, i'm sorry, but sometimes people can say things that just warrent being met with abuse, it's only natural.

Just as if you'd come on here and said "Hitler had the right idea about the Jews!" you'd be met with abuse, so too will you be met with abuse when you say something comparably imbecelic such as "Of course we are no more seen as a major European power!"

Or, if you'd like, think of it this way; if you spent a good portion of your lifetime building a machine that would open up a portal to another dimension which contained a whole world of abuse, and you were successful and managed to transport yourself there, you would not be surprised to find yourself being abused upon arrival at the world of abuse, right? Nor then should it surprise you that saying something as stupid and provocative as "Of course we are no more seen as a major European power!" would also be seen a big, shiny welcome-mat to internetal caf-abuse. It's just the natural way of things; if you say something idiotic, expect people to call you an idiot.

 

[Julian Denny]

I'm sure that not being the best club side in the world means we aren't a European power anymore. We go to Valencia tonight without Valencia, giggs, scholes and Rooney and with Anderson, carrick and Ferdinand coming back from injury. That's why it's a far more dangerous game than usual. I doubt we'd have gone there three years ago expecting to win.

I was listening to someone talking about the major clubs and we weren't mentioned. Yes of course we still are a power - taking the history into account - but I just wonder if indeed we still carry the same respect we did a couple of years back, from a football point of view that is.

The injury situation has made things worse. Our best player, so far, has been Scholes and now he's out. But that merely underlines the inadequacy of our squad - particularly the midfield which probably relies on Fletcher to be the only consistent performer over the entire season. Yes Hargreaves may return and stay fit, which would be a huge boost and Anderson may come to the fore and produce some consistency. Perhaps Carrick will recapture his best form and be consistent as well - perhaps not. On top of this we have the Rooney situation which could not be predicted.

Altoghether there are too many ifs and buts for my liking. Having said that, I've watched football and United long enough to know that we can be pleasantly surpised on occasions. What we bring to the game tonight is experience and you never know despite the fact that we haven't beaten Valencia home or away previously.

 

[ciderman9000000]

I was listening to someone talking about the major clubs and we weren't mentioned. Yes of course we still are a power - taking the history into account - but I just wonder if indeed we still carry the same respect we did a couple of years back, from a football point of view that is.

The injury situation has made things worse. Our best player, so far, has been Scholes and now he's out. But that merely underlines the inadequacy of our squad - particularly the midfield which probably relies on Fletcher to be the only consistent performer over the entire season. Yes Hargreaves may return and stay fit, which would be a huge boost and Anderson may come to the fore and produce some consistency. Perhaps Carrick will recapture his best form and be consistent as well - perhaps not. On top of this we have the Rooney situation which could not be predicted.

Altoghether there are too many ifs and buts for my liking. Having said that, I've watched football and United long enough to know that we can be pleasantly surpised on occasions. What we bring to the game tonight is experience and you never know despite the fact that we haven't beaten Valencia home or away previously.

Why does Scholes getting injured underline the inadequacy of our squad? Personally i'd suggest you wait and see how we cope with his injury before you start underlining any supposed inadequacies.

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

I was listening to someone talking about the major clubs and we weren't mentioned. Yes of course we still are a power - taking the history into account - but I just wonder if indeed we still carry the same respect we did a couple of years back, from a football point of view that is.

The injury situation has made things worse. Our best player, so far, has been Scholes and now he's out. But that merely underlines the inadequacy of our squad - particularly the midfield which probably relies on Fletcher to be the only consistent performer over the entire season. Yes Hargreaves may return and stay fit, which would be a huge boost and Anderson may come to the fore and produce some consistency. Perhaps Carrick will recapture his best form and be consistent as well - perhaps not. On top of this we have the Rooney situation which could not be predicted.

Altoghether there are too many ifs and buts for my liking. Having said that, I've watched football and United long enough to know that we can be pleasantly surpised on occasions. What we bring to the game tonight is experience and you never know despite the fact that we haven't beaten Valencia home or away previously.

Milan, no serie a title for years and no cl since we last won it. Real Madrid, out in the last 16 every year and la liga second raters. Bayern, mid table in the bundesliga. Arsenal, no title in 5 years. I'm assuming these sides aren't European powers anymore? So who's left?

 

[Julian Denny]

I expected a post like this from some young snot but not from you JD. We only lost the PL last by one point are only six games into the new season - lying second to Chelsea by 3 points. We are unbeaten and you're already complaining.

As for pundits opinions what do they know and more importantly which intelligent fan cares a toss what they think - how many times have pundits written Fergie and United off and been proved idiots.

FFS engage your well aged brain objectively

I try to, I try to. But quite frankly I am not happy about the way things are. I had hoped some of that cash in our bank account would have been outlayed on at least two top class players. Most certainly a midfielder and perhaps a right back. For me there's far too great a reliance on the old stagers - Scholes, Giggs and Van der Sar and too many questions over others - eg Carrick, Anderson, O'Shea, Neville, Owen, Gibson and of course Hargreaves. I don't buy the no value in the transfer market thing one bit. Clearly the policy is to buy young players with potential who don't demand high wages (cost containment) and who will, if they come good, have excellent re-sale values in the future. None of the three we bought are automatic starters - so what about this season ?

Fergie loves a challenge and, as you say, he loves proving the pundits wrong just as he has done many times in the past. I just feel he's up against it this time. Admittedly the unpredicted Rooney situation hasn't helped and neither has the Valencia injury. The one big plus is Berbatov and, who knows, perhaps he can provide the necessary inspiration.

 

[Julian Denny]

Milan, no serie a title for years and no cl since we last won it. Real Madrid, out in the last 16 every year and la liga second raters. Bayern, mid table in the bundesliga. Arsenal, no title in 5 years. I'm assuming these sides aren't European powers anymore? So who's left?

Yes indeed but I'm looking at what's happening now. We'll see.

 

[Julian Denny]

Why does Scholes getting injured underline the inadequacy of our squad? Personally i'd suggest you wait and see how we cope with his injury before you start underlining any supposed inadequacies.

I maintain our midfield was inadequate before Scholesy's injury. The fact that he was playing so well was a bonus but, like Giggs, he could not be relied on to perform at that level regularly throughout the season. For me there are too many questions over all our midfielders. Perhaps Fletcher is the only one we can rely on for consistent performance throughout the season. Anderson ? Carrick ? Gibson ?. However, if reports are true and Hargreaves is likely to make a successful comeback, that will be a huge boost.

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

Yes indeed but I'm looking at what's happening now. We'll see.

That is what's happening now. Are those sides European giants or not?

 

[Rood]

feck Off with your reasonable debate..

Well that's me convinced!

But the fact remains that we have no money to spend on team rebuilding...
Again, I hope I am wrong.

You are wrong - have you ever even looked at our financial statements to see how much money is available for transfers or you just prefer to spout unsubstantiated bollocks?

The crazy thing is that we have probably spent more money than Chelsea or Arsenal on players in the last 2 years yet some people seem to think we have no money and they have plenty - madness!

 

[anver]

Well that's me convinced!





You are wrong - have you ever even looked at our financial statements to see how much money is available for transfers or you just prefer to spout unsubstantiated bollocks?

The crazy thing is that we have probably spent more money than Chelsea or Arsenal on players in the last 2 years yet some people seem to think we have no money and they have plenty - madness!

We had midfield problems last year. At the start of the season, we had an inadequate squad, with Carrick, Anderson and Hargo out. They were not supposed to return until October. Then to get match fit they'd take probably another two weeks. Which means 8 matches into the Premiership, and a couple of CL matches, we would be playing on the fringe, hoping no one gets injured. Now the worst has happened. And Rooney is also out for three weeks.

As a manager par excellence, I am sure Fergie would have foreseen the hazards. But, somehow, he did not go in for reinforcements. No value for money? Tosh.

 

[Rood]

Im not interested in that conversation - that type of muppet conversation belongs in the transfer forum or in one of the threads about our squad strength.

This is the thread to discuss our finances - have you ever looked at our financial statements?
If you havent then I have no interest in discussing anything with you in this thread as you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Mitch Conor]

Im not interested in that conversation - that type of muppet conversation belongs in the transfer forum or in one of the threads about our squad strength.

This is the thread to discuss our finances - have you ever looked at our financial statements?
If you havent then I have no interest in discussing anything with you in this thread as you have no idea what you are talking about.

the financial statements say money is there - but it is speculation to say it is there for transfers (or not). For all we know that money could be sitting there waiting to be used to pay off some of the debt or operational costs given that United are, potentially, a loss making company when debt interest payments and everything else is taken into account (30million profit in a year we sold Ronaldo for 80million).

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

the financial statements say money is there - but it is speculation to say it is there for transfers (or not). For all we know that money could be sitting there waiting to be used to pay off some of the debt or operational costs given that United are, potentially, a loss making company when debt interest payments and everything else is taken into account (30million profit in a year we sold Ronaldo for 80million).

You've obviously missed the 100 pages in this thread where it's been established that we actually make a decent cash profit each year, ronaldo not included.

 

[Desert Eagle]

We had midfield problems last year. At the start of the season, we had an inadequate squad, with Carrick, Anderson and Hargo out. They were not supposed to return until October. Then to get match fit they'd take probably another two weeks. Which means 8 matches into the Premiership, and a couple of CL matches, we would be playing on the fringe, hoping no one gets injured. Now the worst has happened. And Rooney is also out for three weeks.

As a manager par excellence, I am sure Fergie would have foreseen the hazards. But, somehow, he did not go in for reinforcements. No value for money? Tosh.

We also have Gibson,Scholes and Fletcher not to mention Giggs and O'shea who can fill in. 8 options for 2 central midfield positions doesn't seem too bad.

 

[anver]

Im not interested in that conversation - that type of muppet conversation belongs in the transfer forum or in one of the threads about our squad strength.

This is the thread to discuss our finances - have you ever looked at our financial statements?
If you havent then I have no interest in discussing anything with you in this thread as you have no idea what you are talking about.

This is a Manchester United forum. We discuss team strength here. Transfer forum deals only with transfers.

If you imply there is money to spend, and get so indignant and hot under the collar, when someone asks why it is not being spent, when it should have been spent, I accept your claim that the money is available. Only time will tell how it gets spent. We'll see.

As for the finances, we made a profit last year, taking into account the Ronaldo sale. Hasn't this been discussed before? Do you want to go into that fiasco again?

 

[Julian Denny]

That is what's happening now. Are those sides European giants or not?

What I had in mind was a "power" purely in the football sense and, what's more, in terms of the future, not the past. Of course, in the broader sense, those teams are giants just as we are - no matter what happens. Then again, I'm not sure if Arsenal have yet earned, or are likely to earn in the forseeable future, a right to be included in such exalted company!

 

[anver]

We also have Gibson,Scholes and Fletcher not to mention Giggs and O'shea who can fill in. 8 options for 2 central midfield positions doesn't seem too bad.

Scholes is out for 10 days. Giggs is out for 2 weeks, and O'Shea and Gibson are not up to the mark. This is why I said we were playing on the fringe the past two months. And this is why we have been leaking goals. No proper midfield to protect a shaky backline.

 

[KM]

It gets on my nerves this shit. You'd think that with the success we've had over recent years and with the wealth of exciting young talent at the club playing amongst some of the most highly regarded senior masters of the game, challenging for the world's most prestigious trophies every year, and winning most years, that our fans would be fecking happy. Instead all we seem to want to do is whinge and moan about the owners and complain about how shit the squad is and how we're on the decline, we're broke and everybody's laughing at us as we stand, staring into the brink every season like a bunch of depressing spoilt brats. Well it wouldn't surprise me if opposition fans are laughing; laughing because though we've got everything they dream of, we still find reason to bloody moan about it. fecking humans, they get on my nerves, man.

Don't mind Anver, he is a bit of a knee-jerking idiot. His reaction after the Leeds defeat

SAF, I am afraid has lost the plot this season. Senility, or is it pressure not to spend? Either way, we are fecked up; the only saving grace is Chelsea's shit form, else, as someone pointed out earlier, we could have been 10 points worse.

Muppet of the Highest Order.

 

[ciderman9000000]

Scholes is out for 10 days. Giggs is out for 2 weeks, and O'Shea and Gibson are not up to the mark. This is why I said we were playing on the fringe the past two months. And this is why we have been leaking goals. No proper midfield to protect a shaky backline.

But Anderson and Carrick are back too, how many center-mids do you want?! This is why we have a squad.

 

[anver]

Don't mind Anver, he is a bit of a knee-jerking idiot. His reaction after the Leeds defeat


Muppet of the Highest Order.

B]And what did we win last season, apart from the CC, aka Mickey Mouse Cup?
[/B]