Take the pie out and put sock in it, you miserable git.
ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances
- Thread starter sammsky1
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Bloody Chelsea lovers.
$20 on Pokerstars do ya ?
$20???!!! Is that the extent of your confidence in what you're saying?
Bloody hell. If you're going to have a bet, at least make it interesting.
We have sticky threads on here. I only wish we could have sticky posts because your post will have been swallowed up and lost come next May and that would be a shame.
Spending doesn't get you success.
Spending well does though. Re: Chelsea and soon City.
The squad is pretty good with some major weaknesses in midfield. If SAF doesn't spend significantly at the end of this season, I think there can be little doubt that he hasn't much cash to play with.
Spending well does though. Re: Chelsea and soon City.
The squad is pretty good with some major weaknesses in midfield. If SAF doesn't spend significantly at the end of this season, I think there can be little doubt that he hasn't much cash to play with.
Perfectly put. We have a good squad but the gap between us and teams like Spurs and certainly City has been hugely reduced in the past two seasons. And in comparison with Barca and Madrid, we've drop quite a bit behind.
It's very frustrating as two seasons ago we were miles ahead.
Why do you always ruin any posts that try to make a decent point with a personal attack? Everything looks good then twatmode gets turned on again.
In fact, it was going well until you said Fletcher is first name on the team sheet. Because we're on the internet, I can label that as the epic fail it is.
I'm afraid there's nothing "perfectly put" about saying something like "with Rooney out of form, imagine if Berbatov hadn't stepped up". That's a completely brain-dead comment.
That's like when we sold Ronaldo and people saying "imagine if Rooney hadn't stepped up" last season.
That's why we have a squad of players - so that in the event of one losing form or being unavailable for any reason, we have other options.
You might as well say, "imagine if we hadn't been on the end of terrible refereeing decisions when we played Chelsea last season, we'd have won the League again."
I´m not an economic nor am I very "in the know" of how Manchester United is run: I just want you to tell me your views on two questions:
1: How can it be a good thing for Manchester United to spend millions of pounds just to pay rent costs?
2: Can you tell me how our ticket prices will benefit our club in the long-run. To me all it does is turning away the local ones that built our great club and attracting people worldwide (like me
) to spend a fortune once a year. It may be profitable just now but when things turn sour at Old Trafford (we wont be dominating forever) it will hit back. The club has turned on their working-class fans. This is the same fans that made manchester united the best supported club in England during the 70:s and 80:s when trophies weren´t coming our way on a regular basis. I´m not having a go and english is obviousley not my first language so I might not make sense esp the second question but please enlighten me if you can. Cheers
So in central midfield we have Scholes, Fletcher, Carrick, Anderson, Gibson and potentially Hargreaves. Players that Sir Alex obviously likes and/or sees potential in. We also have Giggs, Park and Valencia who can provide cover there when needed, and guys like Cleverley who will be banging on the door soon. That's a nice round 10 players for 2-3 places.
Yet we apparently should have brought in some international superstar for a massive fee? Where do they fit in? Do we tell Scholes to retire early because we're bored of him now? Do we give up on Carrick, Anderson or Fletcher? Players who have served us well? Or do we tell the international superstar that he'll only get games when other players are off form or injured, and take the risk that he'll strop about not being loved enough, wreck the dressing room atmosphere, and play like a retarded antelope?
The Glazers can be blamed for lots of things - mainly their dealings with the fans - but strength in depth in midfield is not really a problem.
Yet we apparently should have brought in some international superstar for a massive fee? Where do they fit in? Do we tell Scholes to retire early because we're bored of him now? Do we give up on Carrick, Anderson or Fletcher? Players who have served us well? Or do we tell the international superstar that he'll only get games when other players are off form or injured, and take the risk that he'll strop about not being loved enough, wreck the dressing room atmosphere, and play like a retarded antelope?
The Glazers can be blamed for lots of things - mainly their dealings with the fans - but strength in depth in midfield is not really a problem.
You're absolutely correct. I think people tend to overlook the dynamics of the squad and the knock-on effects it can have when you bring in a player because you don't have to concern yourself with that kind of thing when you're playing FIFA 11 on the Xbox.
No one has said that it's a "good" thing. The thrust of the argument that some of us hold on here is that it is not wholly a "bad" thing though.
At the time the Glazers took over, we heard all kinds of horror stories about how they would have to sell Manchester United's assets (including players) in order to pay them off and that this would lead to us going downhill on the field and in financial ruin off it.
What has become obvious to those of us who have looked beyond the horror stories is that the debt interest is actually quite manageable and needn't necessarily mean a deterioration.
We're no more happy about it than anyone else but we can see how it can work and it is not all doom & gloom for the future of Manchester United. In fact, our financial situation is such that we could well find ourselves in one of the strongest positions in the world when UEFA's Financial Fairplay Rules start to kick in in a couple of years time.
2: Can you tell me how our ticket prices will benefit our club in the long-run. To me all it does is turning away the local ones that built our great club and attracting people worldwide (like me
I´m not having a go and english is obviousley not my first language so I might not make sense esp the second question but please enlighten me if you can. Cheers
United are not the only team to have increased their ticket prices in recent years. What United charge for tickets may well be expensive to some people but we are nowhere near the most expensive in the Premier League. Given that we are one of the biggest and best clubs in the world with a squad to match, it could even be argued that we offer the best value for money in the Premier League.
If we do not charge roughly in line with what our rivals are charging for tickets then we are handing them an advantage. It benefits us to charge what we are charging for tickets because it brings in the revenues required to remain competitive.
I take on board what you're saying about the the 70s and 80s but I'm afraid football in general has just moved on since then. Players weren't being paid six figure weekly salaries in those days and average players weren't being bought and sold for tens of millions.
I'm not saying the current situation is better or worse than it was in the 70s or 80s, it is just what it is and we fans have largely got exactly what we asked really.
erm... do you watch United at all?
Erm, yes and Van Der Sar and Vidic would be the first two names on my team sheet, followed by Evra and Scholes.
OK cheers for the answere. I can never ever defend what they are doing to the club, paying rents while pushing the hardcore out, but I respect your point of view.
Nani atm for me since Valencia and Giggsy is injured. The other parts of the team has decent enough cover
So the ref's are the reason we won nothing but a miserable CC last season, do you realise how pathetic a comment that is? The words of a fool perhaps?
I was talking about the central midfield, you gommo; would you have VDS play there? Look at our teamsheets for the past two years, Fletcher is first choice central midfielder.
On his performances so far this term not for much longer unless he improves
No, as you well know, i'm not blaming the refs, i'm just highlighting how close we came to being crowned champions. One goal in any of our drawn games and we'd have won the league, and yet you describe our squad as very weak. You're a fool if you believe that, clear as day, you're a spoilt, fickle brat with no respect for the manager and the team he's built for us, you undermine their achievements with phrases like "a miserable Carling Cup" and ignore how close we pushed Chelsea and how unlucky we were in the Champions League in favour of slagging off the squad because it suits your anti-Glazer agenda to do so. That's pathetic, Crerand, your pathetic whinging, moaning, your constant complaining disgraces the club, its manager and its players; your warped perceptions of the club have caused you to write us off as title contenders just seven games into the season, that's what i'd call pathetic. You're a fool, mate, you're thick as pigshit and you have a very short memory, there's no doubt about it.
The point, Crerand, is that we were a midge's dick away from winning our fourth consecutive Premier League title in five years of Glazer ownership when we're being told all the time that the Glazers are bad for the club.
Past evidence shows exactly the opposite.
You can talk about the future because that can be shaped in any way you want it to be and no one can disprove something that has yet to happen.
It doesn't make for a particularly strong argument but I suppose if you keep saying the same things year after year (or in your case day after day), you're likely to get it right sooner or later as the world shifts into alignment with your position.
Past evidence shows exactly the opposite.
You can talk about the future because that can be shaped in any way you want it to be and no one can disprove something that has yet to happen.
It doesn't make for a particularly strong argument but I suppose if you keep saying the same things year after year (or in your case day after day), you're likely to get it right sooner or later as the world shifts into alignment with your position.
Why all the abuse Cider? Get your point across and leave it at that. CL has always strucked me as a good lad so no need to be a bully. I disagree with you on Glazer but I still respect your view. Lets leave the abuse for rivals
Tone down the personal insults folks....
TBF that is down to having the best manager in the world. I really can´t understand how the Glazers were the reason for us winning the league 07-09.
Oh bloody hell. Is Crerand paying you to say these things? That's straight from the Crerand book of Warped Logic.
The point is, for the millionth time, they have not, as we were led to believe they would, removed the platform required to continue to be successful.
They did not come along and sack Fergie and replace him with a cheaper manager. They did not come along and offload all the players and replace them with cheaper ones.
They have, as SAF has told us, always supported him when he has asked for funds. They have approved improved contracts for our best players in order to keep hold of them to the point where our wage bill has increased by over 50% during the last five years.
We are told that the debts will take priority over the squad but this kind of thing proves the exact opposite.
We have been told that they will sell our assets (such as Carrington and Old Trafford) but the reality is that the green light has been given to an £11.5million facelift for Carrington which would suggest that the reality is the exact opposite to the scaremongering.
You can't have it both ways, I'm afraid. When things are going well, you can't say, "That's all down to the manager, not the owners" and then say it's all down to the owners when we finish second rather than first.
Dont worry I have recorded the bet in this thread - it will not be forgotten!
https://www.redcafe.net/f8/big-caf-bets-thread-260849/index5.html#post8716980
That is a good point actually - there were a lot of people up in arms about the potential of Carrington being sold after bullshit stories appeared in the media about it. But as you say the exact opposite is happening with significant investment to improve facilities for the players.
Although i suppose the usual transfer muppets will now say we should have spent it on Ozil/Sneider/the current flavour of the month instead
I´m not saying that am I? I just don´t understand how you can give credit to the owners for us winning the league 07-09. They have put us in a debt that most people would find outragous but again: I´m not an economic and I´m not behind the scenes at Old Trafford so frankly I might be at deep water here but I honestly can´t understand how some people think the Glazers are good for Manchester United.
Don't apologise friend you are totally right what you are saying. The only thing the Glazers are good at is spin and we all know who the spinmasters are
Why all the abuse Cider? Get your point across and leave it at that. CL has always strucked me as a good lad so no need to be a bully. I disagree with you on Glazer but I still respect your view. Lets leave the abuse for rivals
I respect Crerand's right to hold an opinion, but once he's given it to me i'm under no obligation to respect that opinion. If he purposely twists my point and calls it pathetic as he did here...
Crerand Legend said:
...then he's liable to rouse my anger and be met with abuse; simply human nature dictating the natural reaction to certain provocations in humans.
Last season we were desperately unlucky not to win more than we did; we suffered the worst defensive crisis in memory mid-season and then lost the world's most in-form striker at a crucial point six games from the end; and yet the quality and strength of our squad meant that we still only finished one point behind a very strong Chelsea team. To describe our squad as weak then is ridiculous. The loss of Ronaldo made us weaker, as it would any team, it put is into a state of transition in terms of what strengths the team plays to, but with the addition of Valencia we coped with that rather well, and we certainly didn't appear weak; we pushed Chelsea to the final weekend of the season, weak teams don't do that. Crerand has a very short memory.
What Crerand is saying is just bullshit, he's (predictably) blaming the owners for some poor form in key players for us at this, the start of the new campaign. Rooney, Evra, Carrick, Fletcher, Park and Evans are all good players who are part of a strong squad, they do not need replacing; they're key players for us, and it's unfortunate that they've started the season poorly, but that's just something that football teams have to cope with; when so many key players are experiencing problems with form then it's inevitable that a club's results will suffer, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the club's owners.
As i said earlier in the thread, as soon as Rooney and Evra get back into the groove from their WC hang-over we'll be fluid again and be bowling teams over home and away; will Crerand be praising the owners when the results start coming in? I very much doubt it. But if the owners are to blame when the team plays badly, why are they not deserving of credit when the team plays well? Something just doesn't add up in Crerand's equation.
Our draws away from home this season have come from a few silly defensive errors and a lack of form in certain key players meaning that we've been unable to kill teams off as we normally would do; the owners have feck all to do with it. feck all.
I'm pretty sure that I said at the outset that no one is saying that they are "good" - just that they are not half as "bad" as we have been led to believe they would be.
I have just tried to explain why they deserve at least some credit for our recent successes. I believe it is grossly unfair to deny them any credit when things go well but hold them up for blame for every little thing that goes "wrong" (like drawing 0-0 away to Sunderland, for example!)
No, they don't pick the team, no they don't actually play themselves but they do pay the wages of the people who do.
They deal with the financial side of things and leave the football to those who know best and don't interfere. That is a "good owner", in my book.
Yes, they have brought the debt but they have also increased revenues to cater for the debt but I would rather the debt wasn't there any day of the week but as it is there, we have to ask what effect it will have on the club.
At the moment, it is impossible to say for a fact that it has had any negative impact on the club in the past because we have continued to be as successful as ever.
What none of us know for certain is what the future holds (and in that regard, we're no different to any other club in the world, if we're being honest).
I just like to believe that my own view of the future is based a little more on the facts at hand rather than a bitter and twisted hatred of a group of businessmen and their controversial method of fund-raising.
Fair enough
I love how people forget Chelsea two or three seasons ago had one recognised defender to choose from through the whole of December and January and it was a monumental achievement when we won the league. Yet when we get a defensive crisis suddenly thats an excuse for not winning the league.
What we went through last season every other team has suffered just the same. If you cant ride out those bad times then you dont deserve to win the league plain and simple.
What they seem to be missing is what we could be with more funds available to spend.
So Park, Evra, Rooney are having a bad time. Thats where buying decent squad players comes into it.
Where is our back up for Scholes, Giggs, Valencia or Fletcher if one or more get injured.
We should have players that can step into the fray when others are going through bad patches. The Phil Neville, Nicky Butt, John O Shea kind of players. The ones that may not be 100% good enough to get into the first team, but will provide you with a damn good back up if they are called upon.
We have a great first 11. IF they are all fit and ready to play at the same time. If one or more get injured, or hit a bad form then it shows in the rest of the team.
Finally, quit with the "world cup" hangover bullshit. There are countless players in the league who went to the world cup and they arent "suffering a hangover"
What we have a case of here, is simpletons who will look for any excuse to explain why our form is patchy. It was patchy for much of last season and the only reason we stayed in touch with CHelsea is because they too were equally inconsistent. If they'd played last season like they are this season the title would have been won by christmas. Some people conveniently forget that fact.
Last season we didnt show anything that could match what Chelsea proved they were capable of at the end of the season. They have followed on in that rich vein of form this season, and the fact we're dropping behind so early on is evidence we are not strong enough to keep up with them. Anyone who thinks we are is living in fecking cuckoo land.
our biggest worry this season isnt whether we are going to be the best team in England, its whether we are going to be the best team in Manchester...
What we went through last season every other team has suffered just the same. If you cant ride out those bad times then you dont deserve to win the league plain and simple.
What they seem to be missing is what we could be with more funds available to spend.
So Park, Evra, Rooney are having a bad time. Thats where buying decent squad players comes into it.
Where is our back up for Scholes, Giggs, Valencia or Fletcher if one or more get injured.
We should have players that can step into the fray when others are going through bad patches. The Phil Neville, Nicky Butt, John O Shea kind of players. The ones that may not be 100% good enough to get into the first team, but will provide you with a damn good back up if they are called upon.
We have a great first 11. IF they are all fit and ready to play at the same time. If one or more get injured, or hit a bad form then it shows in the rest of the team.
Finally, quit with the "world cup" hangover bullshit. There are countless players in the league who went to the world cup and they arent "suffering a hangover"
What we have a case of here, is simpletons who will look for any excuse to explain why our form is patchy. It was patchy for much of last season and the only reason we stayed in touch with CHelsea is because they too were equally inconsistent. If they'd played last season like they are this season the title would have been won by christmas. Some people conveniently forget that fact.
Last season we didnt show anything that could match what Chelsea proved they were capable of at the end of the season. They have followed on in that rich vein of form this season, and the fact we're dropping behind so early on is evidence we are not strong enough to keep up with them. Anyone who thinks we are is living in fecking cuckoo land.
our biggest worry this season isnt whether we are going to be the best team in England, its whether we are going to be the best team in Manchester...
I completely agree. I will never blame the Glazers when our team put on a poor show just as I will never give them credit for us winning any match. I will only blame them for putting our club in a debt that costs our club millions and millions year after year just in rents. I´d rather that money went to lowering the ticketprices so that it wouldnt cost a fortune for a man in Salford (just an excample) to take his two kids to the theatre of dreams. If they had bought our club without borrowing money I´d probably think of them as good owners
Oh common Fred it isn´t that bad. We are a better team than manchester City so I have no worries about them. It might be hard to beat Chelsea to the title but I´m confident we can do it.
Injuries can dictate the outcome of a season; big news.
We didn't deserve to win the league, Chelsea did, that doesn't mean we are a weak side.
City?
Buy who? Who are these 'decent squad players' we sould have bought?
Nani, Carrick, O'Shea, Park, Gibson, Bebe, Obertan.
Yeah, if only we had a John O'Shea kind of player
Obviously, as it would any team.
I'm sure someone could count the players in the league that went to the world cup, and yes, some of them too are out of form. Torres anyone?
Chelsea started last season just as well as they have this, and their squad has got weaker over the summer, not stronger.
Writing off United? Yeah, like nobody's made that mistake before
Ooh scary.
Quality, you're even making words up now.
Scholes >>>> Fletcher.
Carrick has been ahead of the pecking order for most of his time here too.
This gets better and better...
cider says Fletch is the first on the teamsheet and you gave four players that you put before him but neither of you has mentioned Rooney yet so I'm going to stick him in too so now we're up to six players who could all arguably be the first on the team-sheet and now you come in with Carrick - that's seven names out of eleven that could be "first on the team-sheet".
Shit squad we've got, isn't it?
I don't get it. Fletcher's been one of the team's most outstanding and consistent performers for three seasons now; are you underestimating his value because it suits your argument, or are you really just blind to his contribution towards our trophy haul over the last few years?
Apparently he's having trouble selecting a first choice central midfield from the embarrassment of riches we have available. An understandable problem.
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