ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

Status
Not open for further replies.
In a weak attempt to change the subject to something more current. What do people think of the proposed £11.5million investment at Carrington? Are the Glazers "doing it up" prior to selling it, or what?

I might have missed it while I was away but I don't think it's been mentioned on here.
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
In a weak attempt to change the subject to something more current. What do people think of the proposed £11.5million investment at Carrington? Are the Glazers "doing it up" prior to selling it, or what?

I might have missed it while I was away but I don't think it's been mentioned on here.
Click to expand...

Think there was a thread called 'Carrington Getting a Facelift' or something on it. It's obviously lies though, a P.R. stunt from the Glazer camp; they're only here to line their pockets, remember?
 
Crerand Legend said:
Good effort TMRD, still trying to avoid the issue all the same. Pink Floyd hard to beat
Click to expand...

No. I'm not avoiding the issue. We've been through it all before and I've not even been here as long as the people you had the same discussion with before me.

You say something, we write 20,000 posts explaining why we think you're wrong, you completely ignore them and then say the same thing the week later and then when people can't be bothered typing it all out again, you say that they are avoiding the question.

You "win" by attrition but I'm ok with that. I'm happy to let you have your say and I have mine. Others can decide for themselves which they think is the more plausible.
 
What's the issue, Crerand? You said that because we didn't play well yesterday then that proves that the Glazers must be to blame; why not instead blame Fletcher, Scholes and Anderson for not being able to organise themselves into a coherent midfield unit? Blame Rooney, Evra and Park for not being good enough to compete? These are top-class, European Cup and Premier League winning players all of them; blame them for underperforming, or blame SAF if you have to, but don't blame the owners for not predicting the poor form of a few of our football players; should the owners have looked at Rooney, Fletcher, Scholes, Evra, Park and Anderson last season and thought to themselves, "They're not going to be very good against Sunderland next season, we'd better buy some replacements."? Who is really to blame for our result yesterday, Crerand?
 
ciderman9000000 said:
What's the issue, Crerand? You said that because we didn't play well yesterday then that proves that the Glazers must be to blame; why not instead blame Fletcher, Scholes and Anderson for not being able to organise themselves into a coherent midfield unit? Blame Rooney, Evra and Park for not being good enough to compete? These are top-class, European Cup and Premier League winning players all of them; blame them for underperforming, or blame SAF if you have to, but don't blame the owners for not predicting the poor form of a few of our football players; should the owners have looked at Rooney, Fletcher, Scholes, Evra, Park and Anderson last season and thought to themselves, "They're not going to be very good against Sunderland next season, we'd better buy some replacements."? Who is really to blame for our result yesterday, Crerand?
Click to expand...

thats effing easy - the Glazers of course - we're not paying Scholes, Anderson and Fletcher enough - easy peezy
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
No. I'm not avoiding the issue. We've been through it all before and I've not even been here as long as the people you had the same discussion with before me.

You say something, we write 20,000 posts explaining why we think you're wrong, you completely ignore them and then say the same thing the week later and then when people can't be bothered typing it all out again, you say that they are avoiding the question.

You "win" by attrition but I'm ok with that. I'm happy to let you have your say and I have mine. Others can decide for themselves which they think is the more plausible.
Click to expand...

These accounts you are looking forward to, where would they be had we spent the Ronaldo money or not sold him? The most important thing at MUFC is the Glazer debt not the playing staff, they rely on SAF to keep the majority of the loyal fans quiet
 
topper said:
thats effing easy - the Glazers of course - we're not paying Scholes, Anderson and Fletcher enough - easy peezy
Click to expand...

I think the fact that Crerand (and a few others, i'm sure) seek to blame our poor performance against Sunderland on the owners rather than the players themselves only serves to highlight this ridiculous tendency amongst Glazer-haters to blame absolutely everything, no matter how trivial, obscure or unconnected, on the owners of the club. If Crerand's hypothesis were to be believed then one would have to be of the opinion that pre-Glazer United just didn't have poor performances, suffer injuries or see good players lacking in form; if it's all the fault of the owners then surely before the owners took over these problems were not in existence - or at least, if these problems were indeed apparent before the Glazers, then the owners of the time must have been the ones to blame too; perhaps the PLC were to blame for our dry-spell circa 2002-2005? Crerand must believe so, for why else would the team have underperformed if not for the various shortcomings of the club's owners? I'd say then that by Crerand's own admittance the Glazers simply cannot be considered any worse than any of United's previous owners based on the evidence of the Sunderland game, or in fact any worse than any owner of any particular football club anywhere, because poor performances are not only expected now and then from teams, whoever the are and however tallented they may be, but they're an inevitable facet of all team sports. Therefore all sports club owners everywhere must be to blame for this and they're all shit.

Crerand Legend said:
I think yesterdays performance answered what the Glazers have done for the quality of playing staff at Manchester United.
Click to expand...

The quality of the squad is high, Crerand, you're blaming the Glazers for the team's form. You're an idiot.
 
So you never considered the basic logic that Crerrard was suggesting of "we should have better players in the squad"? For Crerrand, it's not about the way the side played, it's about the failure to reinvest the money from Ronaldo and the purported fee we were obviously prepared to pay for Tevez into the squad to bring in players of a similar calibre.

But that doesn't suit you, does it? You'd rather make Crerrand look obsessed with the Glazers when he raises the excellent point that we're still heavily reliant on Giggs and Scholes.
 
Crerand Legend said:
These accounts you are looking forward to, where would they be had we spent the Ronaldo money or not sold him?
Click to expand...

We only know where they were as a result of the sale. We cannot actually say for certain where they would be without his sale because he was sold and it is not a simple case of taking £80million away from the bottom line because certain "financial housekeeping" measures were undertaken as a result of the money coming in.

Crerand Legend said:
The most important thing at MUFC is the Glazer debt not the playing staff, they rely on SAF to keep the majority of the loyal fans quiet
Click to expand...

The players are paid upwards of £100million/year. The debt repayments are far less than that. I conclude from this evidence that the players are given priority over the debt.

If spending money was all it's about Crerand, how do you reconcile the fact that City, who have spent hundreds of millions in the last couple of years (a sum we could never have competed with under any ownership, past or present), actually LOST against Sunderland the other week?
 
UnitedRoadRed said:
So you never considered the basic logic that Crerrard was suggesting of "we should have better players in the squad"? For Crerrand, it's not about the way the side played, it's about the failure to reinvest the money from Ronaldo and the purported fee we were obviously prepared to pay for Tevez into the squad to bring in players of a similar calibre.

But that doesn't suit you, does it? You'd rather make Crerrand look obsessed with the Glazers when he raises the excellent point that we're still heavily reliant on Giggs and Scholes.
Click to expand...

We invested in Valencia immediately after the sale of Ronaldo. Is it the owners fault that that investment is out for the season? Should the owners have invested in two world-class right wingers just in case? Well we didn't have two before the sale of Ronaldo, so why expect two now? We've invested in Hernandez to ease the burden that by the end of last season was obviously too much for Rooney. Should the owners have invested in yet more strikers? There's the positions of Tevez and Ronaldo covered. You say next that we shouldn't be reliant on Giggs and Scholes, but are they not still two of the best players in the game, and have they not proven year upon year that they can be relied upon? Do we not have Fletcher, Anderson, Carrick, Gibson and perhaps soon also Hargreaves to provide support? Just three of those players cost the owners a total of £50m; how many more central midfielders would you recommend the club invests in? No, the accusation that the Glazers are to blame for the team's poor form is ridiculous, only the players themselves are to blame, just as the players have been to blame in the past when we've played badly; the squad is of high quality, but they're occasionally performing below par; this is not the fault of the owners.
 
MDFC Manager said:
He is correct that we are worse off without them. No one can deny that. But they werent sold (Tevez wasnt even sold) for financial reasons as he is trying to suggest for maybe the 1000th time in this thread.
Click to expand...

Bingo!


ciderman9000000 said:
When are the accounts being released? That should give us some new information to work on.
Click to expand...

End of the month or earlier if we are lucky!
 
ciderman9000000 said:
We invested in Valencia immediately after the sale of Ronaldo. Is it the owners fault that that investment is out for the season? Should the owners have invested in two world-class right wingers just in case? Well we didn't have two before the sale of Ronaldo, so why expect two now? We've invested in Hernandez to ease the burden that by the end of last season was obviously too much for Rooney. Should the owners have invested in yet more strikers? There's the positions of Tevez and Ronaldo covered. You say next that we shouldn't be reliant on Giggs and Scholes, but are they not still two of the best players in the game, and have they not proven year upon year that they can be relied upon? Do we not have Fletcher, Anderson, Carrick, Gibson and perhaps soon also Hargreaves to provide support? Just three of those players cost the owners a total of £50m; how many more central midfielders would you recommend the club invests in? No, the accusation that the Glazers are to blame for the team's poor form is ridiculous, only the players themselves are to blame, just as the players have been to blame in the past when we've played badly; the squad is of high quality, but they're occasionally performing below par; this is not the fault of the owners.
Click to expand...

The burden on Rooney? Rooney was playing with an injury!

Sorry, but your point about world class right-wingers is nonsense. We had one before Ronaldo was sold; now we've got none. Just three of those players cost £50m. The other two were free. What's your point?

We've got four players who can play at right back in Rafael, Brown, Neville and O'Shea, none of whom at the moment can call the place theirs. It's not like centre mid where you need to consider the pairing and the formation to any great degree barring the other team's probably left-winger, but there's a logic like we've got at left-back that suggests one consistent player and an understudy works better. There's value in the market. We've not spent on the type of player that you'd expect us to do so. I think Hernandez is a great buy, but is Smalling simply coming in at the expense of Evans?
 
UnitedRoadRed said:
So you never considered the basic logic that Crerrard was suggesting of "we should have better players in the squad"? For Crerrand, it's not about the way the side played, it's about the failure to reinvest the money from Ronaldo and the purported fee we were obviously prepared to pay for Tevez into the squad to bring in players of a similar calibre.

But that doesn't suit you, does it? You'd rather make Crerrand look obsessed with the Glazers when he raises the excellent point that we're still heavily reliant on Giggs and Scholes.
Click to expand...

The problem is, if I mentioned the Glazers in the main threads about the team, I would be told in no uncertain terms to take it away.

The same applies here. We're not really talking about the players here. We're talking about the finances.

You might say it's all related and I would agree but take that up with the mods!

As has been said a few times on here, just because you sell a player for £80million (cos, like, that happens all the time in football, doesn't it?) it doesn't mean you have to go out the next week or even the next season and spend that money if you don't think you need to.

Fergie didn't think he needed to last season and only spent around £20million and was very nearly proved correct. You simply cannot say that spending the other £60million would have made all the difference. The combined £60million signings of Berbatov and Veron should tell you that sometimes, spending big doesn't have the instant impact you believe it will have and sometimes it proves to be a complete waste of money.

Based on last season's evidence and his belief that Chelsea were generally going to be weaker this season (they have hardly strengthened over the summer and have let some good players go) he has clearly decided that major investment is not necessary this season and that he has enough to compete and has brought in a couple of rookies and a new striker to make sure we're not over-reliant on Rooney again.

We have been shown £100million in the bank and we have a £75million RCF. There's more than enough there to buy any player we want to buy.

We're being told that we're not spending the £100million because it will almost all be taken away to pay off the debts. As I cannot prove anything either way, I have no choice but to go along with the notion that this is the likeliest scenario but I'd still say that no one else can prove anything one way or another.

What I find is that when people have taken the stance that the Glazers are a malignant force then they allow this to cloud their judgement over everything else.

So when we sell a player, it is because of the debt. When we fail to sign a player, it is because of the debt. When we have a bad day, it is because of the debt.

Of course, when we win a Champions League or a Premier League then that has been won despite the debt. When Fergie says he has not been affected in any way by the Glazers, he's lying and it is up to the rest of us to prove that he isn't. When David Gill shows £100million in the account, he is being disingenuous and it is up to the rest of us to prove that he isn't.

Crerand calls for proof that he's wrong but I'd suggest that the onus is on him to prove that he's right and one drawn football game proves feck all, I'm afraid.
 
UnitedRoadRed said:
The burden on Rooney? Rooney was playing with an injury!

Sorry, but your point about world class right-wingers is nonsense. We had one before Ronaldo was sold; now we've got none. Just three of those players cost £50m. The other two were free. What's your point?

We've got four players who can play at right back in Rafael, Brown, Neville and O'Shea, none of whom at the moment can call the place theirs. It's not like centre mid where you need to consider the pairing and the formation to any great degree barring the other team's probably left-winger, but there's a logic like we've got at left-back that suggests one consistent player and an understudy works better. There's value in the market. We've not spent on the type of player that you'd expect us to do so. I think Hernandez is a great buy, but is Smalling simply coming in at the expense of Evans?
Click to expand...

Have a word with SAF then; perhaps the £9.8m for Smalling would have been better spent on an RB?

Valencia is a world class winger; i can think of only a few wingers in the world who cost more than Valencia did to buy; Ronaldo, Di Maria, Nani, Beckham, Milner; he's in a very select group value-wise, and is a fantastic little player with age on his side. The money was well spent.

The point about the three midfielders for £50m is that we have invested in the position and that we cannot just give up on those investments just because we failed to win the league last year. SAF obviously has faith in Anderson, and he speaks very highly of Gibson. We all know the value of an in form Carrick, and Fletcher is first name on the teamsheet.

SAF has said that if he want a player then he just has to ask and the funds will be made available for him. It seems clear to me then that SAF is happy with his squad. All we need is Rooney and Evra to find form and we'll be bowling teams over week-in-week-out; stop your fecking constant bloody moaning!
 
ciderman9000000 said:
I think the fact that Crerand (and a few others, i'm sure) seek to blame our poor performance against Sunderland on the owners rather than the players themselves only serves to highlight this ridiculous tendency amongst Glazer-haters to blame absolutely everything, no matter how trivial, obscure or unconnected, on the owners of the club. If Crerands hypothesis were to be believed then one would have to be of the opinion that pre-Glazer United just didn't have poor performances, suffer injuries or see good players lacking in form; if it's all the fault of the owners then surely before the owners took over these problems were not in existence - or at least, if these problems were indeed apparent before the Glazers, then the owners of the time must have been the ones to blame too; perhaps the PLC were to blame for our dry-spell circa 2002-2005? Crerand must believe so, for why else would the team have underperformed if not for the various shortcomings of the club's owners? I'd say then that by Crerands own admittance the Glazers simply cannot be considered any worse than any of United's previous owners based on the evidence of the Sunderland game, or in fact any worse than any owner of any particular football club anywhere, because poor performances are not only expected now and then from teams, whoever the are and however talented they may be, but they're an inevitable facet of all team sports. Therefore all sports club owners everywhere must be to blame for this and they're all shit.



The quality of the squad is high, Crerand, you're blaming the Glazers for the team's form. You're an idiot.
Click to expand...

Typical cider you disagree with his minority position and you are an idiot, reminds me of the bullies in P7. Failure to retain quality or at least reinvest the proceeds has been to the detriment of our playing staff, fact.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
Have a word with SAF then; perhaps the £9.8m for Smalling would have been better spent on an RB?

Valencia is a world class winger; i can think of only a few wingers in the world who cost more than Valencia did to buy; Ronaldo, Di Maria, Nani, Beckham, Milner; he's in a very select group value-wise, and is a fantastic little player with age on his side. The money was well spent.

The point about the three midfielders for £50m is that we have invested in the position and that we cannot just give up on those investments just because we failed to win the league last year. SAF obviously has faith in Anderson, and he speaks very highly of Gibson. We all know the value of an in form Carrick, and Fletcher is first name on the team sheet.

SAF has said that if he want a player then he just has to ask and the funds will be made available for him. It seems clear to me then that SAF is happy with his squad. All we need is Rooney and Evra to find form and we'll be bowling teams over week-in-week-out; stop your fecking constant bloody moaning!
Click to expand...

Our net spend on transfers despite being one of the biggest earners around is over the Glazer era pitiful, that says it all
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
And look... Crerands cleared off. I swear he's just on a wind-up! :lol:
Click to expand...

Not that far away dont worry a little bit of work to attend to, preparing for a meeting with my accountants in the morning. Thankfully my accountants know their jobs and are good at their jobs one is a Leyton Orient fan the other a Everton supporter. They laugh when I tell them that some think that the Glazers are good for Manchester United in fact they both rejoice at the fact that the Glazers have the potential to destroy us
 
Crerand Legend said:
Our net spend on transfers despite being one of the biggest earners around is over the Glazer era pitiful, that says it all
Click to expand...

It says nothing. In the game of football net-spend plays no part in the calculation of league tables; the sale of Ronaldo to a bunch of state-funded, galactico-collecting morons skewed our net-spend figures considerably, the club is under no obligation to disregard sensibility and skew them back the other way again, we can be in a position to collect points from matches regardless of net-spend; spending and building a team sensibly is more important than meeting the net-spend demands of a few disillusioned muppets.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
It says nothing. In the game of football net-spend plays no part in the calculation of league tables; the sale of Ronaldo to a bunch of state-funded, galactico-collecting morons skewed our net-spend figures considerably, the club is under no obligation to disregard sensibility and skew them back the other way again, we can be in a position to collect points from matches regardless of net-spend; spending and building a team sensibly is more important than meeting the net-spend demands of a few disillusioned muppets.
Click to expand...

Net spend will cost us the premiership this term no matter what way you wrap it up, our squad is weak and the world and its mother know that. The debts of our Florida leeches are priority
 
Crerand Legend said:
Net spend will cost us the premiership this term no matter what way you wrap it up, our squad is weak and the world and its mother know that. The debts of our Florida leeches are priority
Click to expand...

One goal would have won us the league last season, one save or defensive block in any of our drawn games, one refereeing decision gone our way and we'd have been champions; is this the weak squad of which you speak?

You're a fool.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
It says nothing. In the game of football net-spend plays no part in the calculation of league tables; the sale of Ronaldo to a bunch of state-funded, galactico-collecting morons skewed our net-spend figures considerably, the club is under no obligation to disregard sensibility and skew them back the other way again, we can be in a position to collect points from matches regardless of net-spend; spending and building a team sensibly is more important than meeting the net-spend demands of a few disillusioned muppets.
Click to expand...

You seem to be the only one on here who understands, regardless of who is running our club I would rather we spent our money wisely and didn't just throw it away just because we can. Who gives a shit how much you spend, you don't win a trophy for spending the most money.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
You seem to be the only one on here who understands, regardless of who is running our club I would rather we spent our money wisely and didn't just throw it away just because we can. Who gives a shit how much you spend, you don't win a trophy for spending the most money.
Click to expand...

And in the modern game, you dont win trophies by spending the least either.

You say you would rather the money was spent wisely.

Bebe ?

7 million for a player who even SAF admits he's never seen play.

19 million for a defender from a club that had one of the worst away records in the premiership last season.

Does that really sound like spending wisely to you ?

Our team is looking lightweight. Whichever way you want to paint over it.

Ciderman goes on about one goal costing us the PL title last season. I would argue that it was alot of lucky breaks we got that kept us in contention. Chelsea looked 10 times more dangerous than us after christmas, and its no coincidence that our stuttering came at the same time as Rooneys dip in form.

Whatever way you want to paint over it, the Glazers have restricted the transfers we could and should have made. The debts have hampered Uniteds ability to compete.

Fergie goes on about no value in the market. Thats so true. There is no value in the market when you cant afford what everyone else can afford. There just arent the players available of the standard we need, at a price we can afford.

Anyone who seriously believes we are capable of keeping up with Chelsea this season is deluded. We are going to struggle to finish top 3 this season, mark my words. We look jaded, we look imbalanced, we look inexperienced.

And thats all down to the fact our players are either too old, or too inexperienced to compete. If we lose Scholes or Giggs for any length of time we are royally fecked, and if you are telling me that relying on players of that age is wise, then I seriously give up.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
You seem to be the only one on here who understands, regardless of who is running our club I would rather we spent our money wisely and didn't just throw it away just because we can. Who gives a shit how much you spend, you don't win a trophy for spending the most money.
Click to expand...

Dont worry, many of us agree with that - we arent all transfer muppets !
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
You seem to be the only one on here who understands, regardless of who is running our club I would rather we spent our money wisely and didn't just throw it away just because we can. Who gives a shit how much you spend, you don't win a trophy for spending the most money.
Click to expand...

I'm not the only one on here who understands, and i think SAF would be in agreement too, in fact, i know he would, he has told us himself.

Our poor results away from home this season can be put down to Rooney's lack of form and a few silly defensive errors, that's all. Our squad is not weak, net-spend would not have stopped Rooney from playing badly, protected Valencia's leg, got Evra's mind on the game, hurried Rio back to fitness or shown Johnny Evans where to stand; debt is the least of our worries at the moment, we should be worrying instead about when our key players are going to start the season.
 
Crerand Legend said:
Net spend will cost us the premiership this term no matter what way you wrap it up, our squad is weak and the world and its mother know that.
Click to expand...

fredthered said:
Anyone who seriously believes we are capable of keeping up with Chelsea this season is deluded. We are going to struggle to finish top 3 this season, mark my words. We look jaded, we look imbalanced, we look inexperienced.
Click to expand...

:lol::lol::lol:

How many times have we heard this same old crap about United before?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.