Alexis Sanchez

We are just a horrible run club.

Well, I don't think so. I think lots of elements of our club are really well run.

I just really think the wages we dole out should be being given to players that are the best in the league.

Wage structure is important to squad balance and players' attitudes. You can't pay Pogba twice what fecking Sanchez earns, it's ridiculous.

I also feel our ability to pay astronomical wages should be being used to weaken our rivals.
 
We overpay cause we've lost the plot, its that simple. I highly doubt those players would have rejected lessor salaries from us. Clubs like us for some odd reason pay way more than market value.

It isn't that we've lost the plot. It's that Fergie had a somewhat socialist view point where he did not believe that the most highly paid member of the squad should be remunerated several times more than another player who also helped us win trophies. You will be aware of problems that this caused in the past with our most highly paid players who felt they weren't getting a market rate (Keane, Ferdinand) and likewise you see the awful transfer fee's we get from our squad players due to their massive salaries (Brown, Evans, O'Shea, Park and inevitably several players in our current squad).

To totally rework this ideology could take a decade or more, as every squad player coming in is going to want the equivalent to a similar player in the squad. If Young is coming in he's always going to demand at least parity with Nani. If Fellaini is coming in he's likely to demand parity with Young. If Shaw is coming in he's going to demand parity with Fellaini. If Schneiderlin is coming in he's likely to demand parity with Shaw. You end up with a situation where you have a mini financial ecosystem where players aren't looking at their market value or what they'd be on at other clubs, they are looking at a similar player in our squad (who's overpaid) and demanding parity.

You say "I highly doubt those players would have rejected lesser salaries", but unfortunately this doesn't take into consideration the fact that our manager will be putting pressure on the board to get signings tied up. They will be putting pressure on the board to ensure signings have a pre-season with us and if you read the transfer forum on here you can see why an extra £20k a week isn't a huge deciding factor in our preparations for the upcoming season. Players' agents know this and will be happy to drag negotiations out for a couple of weeks, knowing we can more than afford another £20-40k a week and knowing they have the leverage of other players' salaries.

The only ones being renegotiated would be Sanchez and Ozil (Maybe Koscielny). Bellerin has recently signed a long term contract and the rest are despensible.

I was referring to Bayern who would have several players' knocking on the door demanding an uplift if Sanchez came in on £200k per week. However even at Arsenal you're likely to get several players demanding an uplift. I'm not saying the likes of Cech, Koscielny, Ramsey, Walcott, Cazorla, Coquelin etc will all demand parity. But their agents will certainly use them in negotiations and I'm sure demand uplift in % terms - they've had a 40% increase in salary, my client wants a 40% on his £70k salary.

Again they might not get it, but there's a reason the majority of clubs have a strict structure. Spurs refuse to go higher than £100k a week as they know it'll set a precedent. Bayern & Arsenal likewise refuse to go above £150k, not because they can't easily afford an extra £3m for one player, but because very quickly it'll translate to a 25% increase in their wage bill.

Eventually they'll have to. The prices and wages are not in their control, it's the market that makes them. If they choose to resist it too much, it will affect their attractiveness among elite players knowing they are worth more.
And it's not like the wage increase will lead them down a path like Leeds, they can easily afford a larger wage bill with their revenue stream.

True I guess. A wide disparity among the wages of players would definitely affect the players in a lot of way you wouldn't want.

But I sense we are straying off topic, so back to it. Arsenal would do well to keep him and Ozil happy and pay what they ask. If they leave along with Arsene, they could have a worse time than we did with Moyes.

They'll eventually have to increase their wage structure, but they'll do it reluctantly and might even lose a couple of good players in the process. Likewise they may be calling the players' bluff - "There's only 6 clubs in the world that can pay more than we're offering, 3 of them don't need you and the other 3 we aren't selling to regardless of the offer. You either sign the current deal at £2m more per season or wait 2 years until your contract is up, losing out on the £4m pay rise in the process and risk a dip in form or a bad injury away from no club being in for you at anything near the current offer".
 
I was referring to Bayern who would have several players' knocking on the door demanding an uplift if Sanchez came in on £200k per week.
Our top earners already get more than £200k per week. Müller is on 15m Euro / year and Lewandowski is rumoured to sign a new contract with similar wages before the end of the year. That's about £240k / week if I'm not mistaken and if we sign a player like Sanchez, he'll most likely earn a similar amount than that. It won't cause any problems with our wage structure at all.
 
Sanchez is an excellent player but is a bit overrated right now. Personally, I think that there are at least 5 players better than him in the EPL: Costa and Hazard, KDB and Aguero, plus Coutinho.
 
Sanchez is an excellent player but is a bit overrated right now. Personally, I think that there are at least 5 players better than him in the EPL: Costa and Hazard, KDB and Aguero, plus Coutinho.

Coutinho is very inconsistent according to most the Liverpool fans I know. Very good on his day but does go missing a lot. I'd rate Sanchez higher or at least on par.
 
So how do you united fans looking to steal Sanchez from us feel of being outpriced by chinese clubs? Rumor has it they are willing to offer 4m/w which makes even your money look small.

Having a lot of money is such a good thing for football, right?

:lol: Bitter before we've even been linked with him.
 
I can't see Bayern paying what's needed if it's not a free transfer
 
It isn't that we've lost the plot. It's that Fergie had a somewhat socialist view point where he did not believe that the most highly paid member of the squad should be remunerated several times more than another player who also helped us win trophies. You will be aware of problems that this caused in the past with our most highly paid players who felt they weren't getting a market rate (Keane, Ferdinand) and likewise you see the awful transfer fee's we get from our squad players due to their massive salaries (Brown, Evans, O'Shea, Park and inevitably several players in our current squad).

To totally rework this ideology could take a decade or more, as every squad player coming in is going to want the equivalent to a similar player in the squad. If Young is coming in he's always going to demand at least parity with Nani. If Fellaini is coming in he's likely to demand parity with Young. If Shaw is coming in he's going to demand parity with Fellaini. If Schneiderlin is coming in he's likely to demand parity with Shaw. You end up with a situation where you have a mini financial ecosystem where players aren't looking at their market value or what they'd be on at other clubs, they are looking at a similar player in our squad (who's overpaid) and demanding parity.

You say "I highly doubt those players would have rejected lesser salaries", but unfortunately this doesn't take into consideration the fact that our manager will be putting pressure on the board to get signings tied up. They will be putting pressure on the board to ensure signings have a pre-season with us and if you read the transfer forum on here you can see why an extra £20k a week isn't a huge deciding factor in our preparations for the upcoming season. Players' agents know this and will be happy to drag negotiations out for a couple of weeks, knowing we can more than afford another £20-40k a week and knowing they have the leverage of other players' salaries.



I was referring to Bayern who would have several players' knocking on the door demanding an uplift if Sanchez came in on £200k per week. However even at Arsenal you're likely to get several players demanding an uplift. I'm not saying the likes of Cech, Koscielny, Ramsey, Walcott, Cazorla, Coquelin etc will all demand parity. But their agents will certainly use them in negotiations and I'm sure demand uplift in % terms - they've had a 40% increase in salary, my client wants a 40% on his £70k salary.

Again they might not get it, but there's a reason the majority of clubs have a strict structure. Spurs refuse to go higher than £100k a week as they know it'll set a precedent. Bayern & Arsenal likewise refuse to go above £150k, not because they can't easily afford an extra £3m for one player, but because very quickly it'll translate to a 25% increase in their wage bill.



They'll eventually have to increase their wage structure, but they'll do it reluctantly and might even lose a couple of good players in the process. Likewise they may be calling the players' bluff - "There's only 6 clubs in the world that can pay more than we're offering, 3 of them don't need you and the other 3 we aren't selling to regardless of the offer. You either sign the current deal at £2m more per season or wait 2 years until your contract is up, losing out on the £4m pay rise in the process and risk a dip in form or a bad injury away from no club being in for you at anything near the current offer".
Its also easier to attract players if your winning things constantly and/or playing in Europe constantly. We have fallen away and thats why we have to pay over the odds for players. £290 grand a week for Pogba is obscene if true. Do you think if we had 'only' offered him £100 grand he would of come 'home' as he calls it.
 
I was referring to Bayern who would have several players' knocking on the door demanding an uplift if Sanchez came in on £200k per week. However even at Arsenal you're likely to get several players demanding an uplift. I'm not saying the likes of Cech, Koscielny, Ramsey, Walcott, Cazorla, Coquelin etc will all demand parity. But their agents will certainly use them in negotiations and I'm sure demand uplift in % terms - they've had a 40% increase in salary, my client wants a 40% on his £70k salary.

Again they might not get it, but there's a reason the majority of clubs have a strict structure. Spurs refuse to go higher than £100k a week as they know it'll set a precedent. Bayern & Arsenal likewise refuse to go above £150k, not because they can't easily afford an extra £3m for one player, but because very quickly it'll translate to a 25% increase in their wage bill.

I agree with your points in general but I think you underestimate the wages which Arsenal's second tier players already command and the increases that have already occurred in our wage bill, not because of superstars but because of new contracts for those second tier players. Our wage bill for 16-17 is only about £20m less than United's and it has gone up by over 20% over the last three years (a higher rate of growth than United, City, or Chelsea). Players like Walcott, Cech, Giroud, and Ramsey are all on >100K already. If anything, it is very unusual that there is so little separation between the top earners Ozil and Sanchez and players in that second tier bracket. Wenger has been known to believe in the same "socialist" notion you mentioned with respect to Fergie, but perhaps even more extremely. So I think he is hesitant to change the wage structure (in fact, too hesitant). But we could pay Ozil and Sanchez in the 200-250K range and we wouldn't have any more wage inequality than other clubs.
 
Our top earners already get more than £200k per week. Müller is on 15m Euro / year and Lewandowski is rumoured to sign a new contract with similar wages before the end of the year. That's about £240k / week if I'm not mistaken and if we sign a player like Sanchez, he'll most likely earn a similar amount than that. It won't cause any problems with our wage structure at all.

I wasn't aware Muller had signed such a lucrative deal? I was under the impression he was on a similar salary to Ribery, Lahm, Neuer, Robben etc which was around €150-160k? I'd be surprised if Bayern had a single player earning twice the salary of anyone else, although with the Man Utd interest was it a case of pay up or lose him?
 
I wasn't aware Muller had signed such a lucrative deal? I was under the impression he was on a similar salary to Ribery, Lahm, Neuer, Robben etc which was around €150-160k? I'd be surprised if Bayern had a single player earning twice the salary of anyone else, although with the Man Utd interest was it a case of pay up or lose him?
Müller signed another contract extension in 2015 (after he already got one in 2014) to make him the top earner.

Lahm, Ribery, Neuer are on around 12-13m a year for a few years now. Even Götze's contract was rumoured to be about 12m back in 2013 which is around 230k Euro/week. We're paying top wages for a long time now, which is also reflected in our total wages/total revenue ratio.
 
I wasn't aware Muller had signed such a lucrative deal? I was under the impression he was on a similar salary to Ribery, Lahm, Neuer, Robben etc which was around €150-160k? I'd be surprised if Bayern had a single player earning twice the salary of anyone else, although with the Man Utd interest was it a case of pay up or lose him?
Lahm, Ribery et al are rumored to earn €10 - €12m which is between £170k and £200k. Don't forget that the £ is weaker now, so it'd be easier for Bayern to match British clubs.
They are rich and probably willing to spend now. Don't forget that their revenue is on par with United's.
 
Sanchez is an excellent player but is a bit overrated right now. Personally, I think that there are at least 5 players better than him in the EPL: Costa and Hazard, KDB and Aguero, plus Coutinho.

Coutinho ahead of Sanchez is madness.
 
Well thats even more shocking!
Why? He's 23 and already one of the best in the world. If he's not worth that money now, he will be next year. We're talking about a guy who could become one of the 5-7 best CM of all time. A difference maker. And there's no risk of him asking for a raise until 2019 at the very least. Plus his image rights are worth a lot, probably more than what united are paying
 
Why? He's 23 and already one of the best in the world. If he's not worth that money now, he will be next year. We're talking about a guy who could become one of the 5-7 best CM of all time. A difference maker. And there's no risk of him asking for a raise until 2019 at the very least. Plus his image rights are worth a lot, probably more than what united are paying
well thats extreme. He may not even surpass the likes of Gerrard.
 
Coutinho ahead of Sanchez is madness.
Insanity really. Sanchez is as hard a worker as anyone on the pitch. He's really quick, can dribble past anyone, can handle himself physically, is surprisingly brilliant in the air despite being short, can shoot from range as well as finish from close, and is an excellent and creative passer. Not sure if there is any aspect that Coutinho has over Sanchez. Plus Sanchez is a winger who scores around 25 in all competitions plus probably gets around 15 assists in all competitions. This season it wouldn't surprise me to see Sanchez hit 30 (or get very close) in all comps. He's just a terrific footballer all around and easily top 3 in the league based on natural talent as well as his actual output on the pitch, alongside Hazard and Aguero probably. Last season he wasn't consistent and generally had a bit of a quiet season, but still scored 17 goals which is decent. His first season he was great, and this season he has been arguably the best player in the league along with Hazard.
 
well thats extreme. He may not even surpass the likes of Gerrard.
The only difference between him and peak gerrard is peak gerrard had the chance to be a hero in a CL final. Give him a couple years. Kid has the potential to reach the matthaus/xavi/pirlo/iniesta/rijkaard/falcao/ tardelli stratosphere
 
The only difference between him and peak gerrard is peak gerrard had the chance to be a hero in a CL final. Give him a couple years. Kid has the potential to reach the matthaus/xavi/pirlo/iniesta/rijkaard/falcao/ tardelli stratosphere
How about the ability to lift all those around you, drag the team, score important goals, score in big games, avg 17 goals per season for 6 consecutive seasons, be the main man in midfield.

It is nigh impossible for Pogba to reach the levels of those you have listed because he lacks a footballing brain. Its hard to just develop it. Ross Barkley is another one. Has the technique and physique but little understanding of his role in the team. If he takes Deschamps advice and puts the team 1st, theres a chance. He will need a better 1st touch and decision making though
 
No way are Arsenal giving him 300k p/w. Seems like a sly tactic to force a move away from Arsenal if they continue not to win shit.

If he did leave it'd be for Chelsea or Man City.

Unsurprisingly heavily linked with Chelsea now



 
It's insane that players these days don't see that as enough to make a proper living. The world needs some perspective.
I don't think it's so much that they don't see it as enough to make a proper living, I think it's more to do with the going rate and what their peers earn. If I was on 60k I'd be over the moon, if a couple years later I find that people doing the same job as me at a similar or lesser level earn 100k, I'd be looking for a bump in wages too.
 
Why? He's 23 and already one of the best in the world. If he's not worth that money now, he will be next year. We're talking about a guy who could become one of the 5-7 best CM of all time. A difference maker. And there's no risk of him asking for a raise until 2019 at the very least. Plus his image rights are worth a lot, probably more than what united are paying
He needs to improve quite a lot to become one of the best CM of all time.
 
How about the ability to lift all those around you, drag the team, score important goals, score in big games, avg 17 goals per season for 6 consecutive seasons, be the main man in midfield.
Yeah, might've gone overboard with that. Still he's already near as good as gerrard was at his best, and he's 23. Barring the goals and the longevity(which he can't have yet given this is his 5th season as a pro), he's already got all the rest down. The next step is to do all that consistently. Gerrard's goalscoring prowess was a combination of PL, Benitez, and being the team's penalty taker

It is nigh impossible for Pogba to reach the levels of those you have listed because he lacks a footballing brain. Its hard to just develop it. Ross Barkley is another one. Has the technique and physique but little understanding of his role in the team. If he takes Deschamps advice and puts the team 1st, theres a chance. He will need a better 1st touch and decision making though
This is just bs

@doodle Di Marzio

@wolvored of course. But the potential's there
 
Wages in England aren't reported after tax.
Reports from probably the only reliable journo around said €12M/year+1M add-ons, after tax PLUS €7M/year for i think 50% of the image rights. Last number wasn't specified if before or after tax. Convert that to £ and do the math. Comes out around £190k a week excluding add-ons and image rights
 
Yeah, might've gone overboard with that. Still he's already near as good as gerrard was at his best, and he's 23. Barring the goals and the longevity(which he can't have yet given this is his 5th season as a pro), he's already got all the rest down. The next step is to do all that consistently. Gerrard's goalscoring prowess was a combination of PL, Benitez, and being the team's penalty taker


This is just bs

@doodle Di Marzio

@wolvored of course. But the potential's there
I'm sorry, what?
 
Such extremes on the Caf. One guy already predicting him to be one of the top 5 CMs ever and the other says he doesn't have a footballing brain at all.
 
Yeah, might've gone overboard with that. Still he's already near as good as gerrard was at his best, and he's 23. Barring the goals and the longevity(which he can't have yet given this is his 5th season as a pro), he's already got all the rest down. The next step is to do all that consistently. Gerrard's goalscoring prowess was a combination of PL, Benitez, and being the team's penalty taker


This is just bs

@doodle Di Marzio

@wolvored of course. But the potential's there
The thing is....he is nowhere near as good as Gerrard was at his best. Technique and physique wise maybe, but as I mentioned, he doesn't understand his position/role in the team. the brain isn't there. it is still very much "talented youth" mind-set. Like the playground kid wanting to show off. l
 
Such extremes on the Caf. One guy already predicting him to be one of the top 5 CMs ever and the other says he doesn't have a footballing brain at all.
A good footballing brain is down to the understanding of the game and your role in it e.g. your position. He seems a bit raw to me still. Decisions making (doing the right things on the pitch virtually always), taking up great positions, doing the simple things instinctively, are a result of the good footballing brain in my definition. Guys like Kroos, Scholes, Modric, Xavi, De Bruyne, are examples of having the good footballing brain. That's more what I meant. Not that he does not have one, I just don't think he has a particularly great one.

EDIT: There was actually a thread about this back in 2009
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/footballing-brain-what-is-it.259110/

copied from the thread

Fundamentally the brain is designed to solve problems and make decisions.

So a good footballing brain could include

- working out how an opponents tactics is affecting the play and counteracting this by changing positions, role, or style

- when to pass and when to tackle

- reading the game

- seeing danger and communicating to others

- knowing when to up the tempo of the game and when to slow it down

- Being able to see the play unfolding up ahead, and having the vision to realise a pass could be made there

Paul seems to play purely on instinct and he did actually say this last week or whenever in an interview
 
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@Stacks If your point is that he needs to get better in that regard, I'd agree. He's just 23 after all and has years ahead of him. That's quite different to saying he doesn't have a footballing brain and unlikely to develop it either which is what I disagreed with.
 
I'm sorry, what?
He is. You're not seeing it now 'cause united's finishing as been rubbish so far. He's been one of the best midfielders in the league, and playing mostly from a deeper position in a 2 man midfield on a team who have yet to figure itself out