Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?

gasmanc said:
Excellent news :)
Has he grown into the best CM in the premier league, can't think of anyone as consistently good and that video compilation highlights his range of not just passing but tackling ability too.
Yes there are more dynamic and mobile midfielders but he's pivotal to everything united do. Slow and steady wins the race they say.
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There's no question for me that he's the best CM in the league at the moment. Anyone who names Touré isn't accounting for the sheer volume of awful games he has - sometimes it's like one on one off with him. And even when he has a good one, it's as part of a great City performance which has just as much to do with Fernandinho and Silva and Nasri etc. Whereas Carrick runs that midfield practically on his own throughout the season and puts in consistently excellent performances.

EDIT: Oh, and Carrick has been just as good this season as last. The 'off colour' stuff is just because people have got used to it, and don't notice it as much any more. It's one of the caf's more predictable phenomena.
 
Toure blows hot and cold. He can be absolutely phenomenal in some games (annoyingly, those games always seem to be against United) while in others, he looks like he can't be arsed.
 
Brightonian said:
There's no question for me that he's the best CM in the league at the moment. Anyone who names Touré isn't accounting for the sheer volume of awful games he has - sometimes it's like one on one off with him. And even when he has a good one, it's as part of a great City performance which has just as much to do with Fernandinho and Silva and Nasri etc. Whereas Carrick runs that midfield practically on his own throughout the season and puts in consistently excellent performances.
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Are you including that season in 'at the moment'?
 
Brightonian said:
I'm talking, I suppose, both in terms of right now, and over the past season-and-a-half/two seasons.
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Well I'd class 'at the moment' as this season so far and he definitely hasn't been the best.

If you're taking the last 1-2 years into account then he probably has.

EDIT: I meant 'last season', not 'that season'.
 
I do think we need to look at who we use Carrick against. He's never as effective when we play teams that press the midfield, and his effectiveness diminishes completely. He's never been quick either, and in those type of games he's exposed far to often.

I'm not sure I'm happy with a 2 year deal, at his age and the way the club has been run I fully expected a running contract. I wouldn't want to lose Carrick, as I think against a lot of teams he's very good, but when we know teams are going to press us quickly and high up, we need to use other players.
 
Cina said:
Well I'd class 'at the moment' as this season so far and he definitely hasn't been the best.

If you're taking the last 1-2 years into account then he probably has.

EDIT: I meant 'last season', not 'that season'.
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As I say, I personally don't think he's been any worse this season than last, I just think you (and, to be fair, a number of other people saying the same thing) have become accustomed to the new Carrick, and don't see all the good stuff he does any more. That video sums it up quite nicely for me. But I recognise it's an agree to disagree sort of issue.
 
Tribec said:
I do think we need to look at who we use Carrick against. He's never as effective when we play teams that press the midfield, and his effectiveness diminishes completely. He's never been quick either, and in those type of games he's exposed far to often.

I'm not sure I'm happy with a 2 year deal, at his age and the way the club has been run I fully expected a running contract. I wouldn't want to lose Carrick, as I think against a lot of teams he's very good, but when we know teams are going to press us quickly and high up, we need to use other players.
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Seriously? Which other players would you pick ahead of Carrick against anyone? He is disturbingly far ahead of our other CMS in terms of quality.
 
Cina said:
Great news.

Reckon he's past his best now though, due to overuse last year, but he can still do a very good job for us.
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Unfortunately I'd agree with this.
After last season our expectations of him might be a bit too high from now on. The best thing about the new contract is it gives us a couple of seasons to "bed" in one or two new central players.
 
Tribec said:
I do think we need to look at who we use Carrick against. He's never as effective when we play teams that press the midfield, and his effectiveness diminishes completely. He's never been quick either, and in those type of games he's exposed far to often.

I'm not sure I'm happy with a 2 year deal, at his age and the way the club has been run I fully expected a running contract. I wouldn't want to lose Carrick, as I think against a lot of teams he's very good, but when we know teams are going to press us quickly and high up, we need to use other players.
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Can't understand why you'd want to give him a shorter contract even if you want him to play in less games.
 
I don't see how a slow start can mean he's past it at 32. Also 2 years is great, at least he's not leaving us.
 
Brightonian said:
There's no question for me that he's the best CM in the league at the moment. Anyone who names Touré isn't accounting for the sheer volume of awful games he has - sometimes it's like one on one off with him. And even when he has a good one, it's as part of a great City performance which has just as much to do with Fernandinho and Silva and Nasri etc. Whereas Carrick runs that midfield practically on his own throughout the season and puts in consistently excellent performances.

EDIT: Oh, and Carrick has been just as good this season as last. The 'off colour' stuff is just because people have got used to it, and don't notice it as much any more. It's one of the caf's more predictable phenomena.
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He's been an absolute revelation since he got over his knee injury, he did have a patch where you thought enough is enough there was that slow turning paceless look of a man that fears to trust his body. Last 18 months 2 years have seen him grow into the player we bought only with a much more assured self belief. Ok so we may have seen his best but his ability to read the game and having spent 90% of his career totally un-reliant on pace says he is well deserving of another 2 years. He can control a game without to much effort and its one midfield headache less now that we don't need to be looking at replacing our best CM.
 
gasmanc said:
He's been an absolute revelation since he got over his knee injury, he did have a patch where you thought enough is enough there was that slow turning paceless look of a man that fears to trust his body. Last 18 months 2 years have seen him grow into the player we bought only with a much more assured self belief. Ok so we may have seen his best but his ability to read the game and having spent 90% of his career totally un-reliant on pace says he is well deserving of another 2 years. He can control a game without to much effort and its one midfield headache less now that we don't need to be looking at replacing our best CM.
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Two years isn't that far away though, it won't be that long until we have to think about replacing him. Before then we'll probably have to properly replace the likes of Scholes, Giggs, Fletcher, Vidic, Ferdinand and Evra as well. Busy times ahead I think, so we've really gotta hope Carrick can keep going for a while yet.
 
sullydnl said:
Two years isn't that far away though, it won't be that long until we have to think about replacing him. Before then we'll probably have to properly replace the likes of Scholes, Giggs, Fletcher, Vidic, Ferdinand and Evra as well. Busy times ahead I think, so we've really gotta hope Carrick can keep going for a while yet.
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Agreed on all points, it's nice to have breathing space no matter how little but finding midfielders to play for united has been like finding rocking horse shit for a good few years.
I think the Scholes/Giggs combo will never be replaced but we have certainly found away to play without both, it is nice to have Giggs around when a ship needs steadying mind. Can Fellaini become as useful as Fletcher ? Then we also have the power and physicality of Smalling and Jones backed up by the calm positioning and distribution of Evans. The only concern I feel is Evra but if we're to believe the papers then Baines will arrive in January.
On all those scores I feel we will be fine but as ever that midfield problem continues to bug us, we would be in a right shitpile had Carrick decided not to sign an extension.
That Kroos feller looks like he could do a job :)
 
gasmanc said:
Agreed on all points, it's nice to have breathing space no matter how little but finding midfielders to play for united has been like finding rocking horse shit for a good few years.
I think the Scholes/Giggs combo will never be replaced but we have certainly found away to play without both, it is nice to have Giggs around when a ship needs steadying mind. Can Fellaini become as useful as Fletcher ? Then we also have the power and physicality of Smalling and Jones backed up by the calm positioning and distribution of Evans. The only concern I feel is Evra but if we're to believe the papers then Baines will arrive in January.
On all those scores I feel we will be fine but as ever that midfield problem continues to bug us, we would be in a right shitpile had Carrick decided not to sign an extension.
That Kroos feller looks like he could do a job :)
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Yeah, I'd be hopeful that a few of the players we already have at the club could step up and take over, especially in defence. Still, even ignoring their quality, that's a lot of leadership and experience leaving the team in a short space of time. How many of those players I mentioned were/could have been the team's captain over the last few years? Our team is certainly going to look very different in two years time, keeping the likes of Carrick around the squad for as long as we can could make a big difference.

Stop, if we had Kroos...
 
Fantastic news about the new deal. I don't think he's performed at the standard he set last season, but he's still been impressive this season and continues ro be taken for granted. I dread to fear what our midfield is like without him, just hope we can get by without him until he returns from injury.
 
sullydnl said:
Yeah, I'd be hopeful that a few of the players we already have at the club could step up and take over, especially in defence. Still, even ignoring their quality, that's a lot of leadership and experience leaving the team in a short space of time. How many of those players I mentioned were/could have been the team's captain over the last few years? Our team is certainly going to look very different in two years time, keeping the likes of Carrick around the squad for as long as we can could make a big difference.

Stop, if we had Kroos...
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I think we will keep Vidic for at the very least another year and my betting is on Rio to hang on for another, then we have our talismen taking up roles at the club keeping the continuity of winners around a while longer.
Or we solve all our worries and purchase some of Germany's midfielders :) Who's needs defenders.
 
Mel_F said:
Toure blows hot and cold. He can be absolutely phenomenal in some games (annoyingly, those games always seem to be against United) while in others, he looks like he can't be arsed.
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That is so true, and true of a few others at City and Chelsea.We have few if any of those.If our big players have a bad game it's usually down to poor form, both the team and personal, and never lack of effort or not being arsed.This is what gave us the the edge last season and I hope again this year!
 
Brightonian said:
As I say, I personally don't think he's been any worse this season than last, I just think you (and, to be fair, a number of other people saying the same thing) have become accustomed to the new Carrick, and don't see all the good stuff he does any more. That video sums it up quite nicely for me. But I recognise it's an agree to disagree sort of issue.
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Thanks for knowing what I think/see, it really makes things easier for me. I might PM you for some advice on what to think/see about other matters too if it's ok?

it's not a case of being accustomed to it at all, it's a case of him not being as good this season, which he hasn't been, although he's still been very good. Compilations are hardly a great way to judge that.
 
Calling him better than Toure is just silly, in my opinion. He's a similar level to Arteta I'd say, which is no criticism of Carrick by the way.
 
Rozay said:
Calling him better than Toure is just silly, in my opinion. He's a similar level to Arteta I'd say, which is no criticism of Carrick by the way.
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He's more consistant than Toure... but when Toure's *on* he's definitely the best/beast.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
He's more consistant than Toure... but when Toure's *on* he's definitely the best/beast.
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I think it's easy to be more consistent than someone when you are not as good as them. Barry is more consistent too, as is Milner. They are consistent at a level that is below Toure I think.
 
Rozay said:
I think it's easy to be more consistent than someone when you are not as good as them. Barry is more consistent too, as is Milner. They are consistent at a level that is below Toure I think.
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Consistently wank?

More seriously, surely the level at which you're operating at whilst being consistant is a factor? Carrick is obviously a level above Barry and Milner, which makes his consistant performances possibly more useful than Toure's incredibly performances every 3 or 4 games more valuable in some peoples eyes.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Consistently wank?

More seriously, surely the level at which you're operating at whilst being consistant is a factor? Carrick is obviously a level above Barry and Milner, which makes his consistant performances possibly more useful than Toure's incredibly performances every 3 or 4 games more valuable in some peoples eyes.
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Well that is true, and probably not the best examples. Although I don't think Milner or Barry are 'wank' in any case. I just meant the fact that Toure does not always operate at his 100% best doesn't mean Carrick is better. Their top levels are not even close, in my view, so we are not at the stage of splitting hairs between them.

And for what it's worth, Carrick, 'consistently', plays poorly for the first few months of every season anyway.
 
Rozay said:
And for what it's worth, Carrick, 'consistently', plays poorly for the first few months of every season anyway.
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There is a difference between below his optimum and poor. Terms like poor and world class are overused (often incorrectly) when it comes to someone like Carrick. His so called poor start has been over-exaggerated too.
 
ISSYNAZAR said:
There is a difference between below his optimum and poor. Terms like poor and world class are overused (often incorrectly) when it comes to someone like Carrick. His so called poor start has been over-exaggerated too.
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Well I agree with you, but typically the caf does not afford such logic to assessing Toure. He's great sometimes and otherwise poor, it seems. Any which way you slice it, I imagine outside of a United forum, you will manage to find many, or anyone, who agrees Carrick is better than Toure to be fair. He's a beast.

They would make a mighty fine partnership though, I'll say that much.
 
Rozay said:
Well I agree with you, but typically the caf does not afford such logic to assessing Toure. He's great sometimes and otherwise poor, it seems. Any which way you slice it, I imagine outside of a United forum, you will manage to find many, or anyone, who agrees Carrick is better than Toure to be fair. He's a beast.

They would make a mighty fine partnership though, I'll say that much.
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Yaya Touré is one of the most overrated midfielders in the league. His positional sense and work rate is not professional in any way. Carrick has been more consistent than Touré for the last two years. The problem with Touré is that when he plays in a midfield two, he leaves Fernandinho isolated. It has happened in every game they heave featured together this season... And Manchester City have suffered from this, hence they had Navas play very narrow against Bayern Munich.
 
MoneyMay said:
Yaya Touré is one of the most overrated midfielders in the league. His positional sense and work rate is not professional in any way. Carrick has been more consistent than Touré for the last two years. The problem with Touré is that when he plays in a midfield two, he leaves Fernandinho isolated. It has happened in every game they heave featured together this season... And Manchester City have suffered from this, hence they had Navas played very narrow against Bayern Munich.
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Agreed. What use is Toure when he'd rather be tucked up in bed?
 
On ability alone there is no question that Yaya Toure can be an outstanding player on his day. He's ever evolving and can be good at pretty much everything.

I don't think Toure is overrated. Those 10-15 outstanding performances amongst below par ones tend to be the 3,4 or 5-0 games which won them their title in effect.

Like Carrick he hasn't really had a decent partner but since the arrival of Fernandinho he almost looks too comfortable at times.

When it comes to winning a game alone, you'd have Toure. When it comes to winning a title and putting in a weekly solid performance rather than a match winning performance once a month, you'd take Carrick.
 
Carrick being either the best or 2nd best midfielder in the league is IMO more indicative of the level of midfielders in the league atm rather than how good he is.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Carrick being either the best or 2nd best midfielder in the league is IMO more indicative of the level of midfielders in the league atm rather than how good he is.
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And yet he regularly matches up to or tops some of Europe's best midfielders in the stats leagues. I know stats aren't everything, but there's a degree of grass-is-greener thinking in what you said. Yes, in general top continental teams are doing better for midfielders than top English teams at the moment. But there are plenty who get overrated on here by default because they play abroad. For example, plenty on here would tell you Alonso is better than Carrick, but for two seasons now that has patently not been true. Carrick would probably shine more playing next to better midfield partners in some of the top European sides, rather than trying to carry our midfield all by himself.
 
Brightonian said:
And yet he regularly matches up to or tops some of Europe's best midfielders in the stats leagues. I know stats aren't everything, but there's a degree of grass-is-greener thinking in what you said. Yes, in general top continental teams are doing better for midfielders than top English teams at the moment. But there are plenty who get overrated on here by default because they play abroad. For example, plenty on here would tell you Alonso is better than Carrick, but for two seasons now that has patently not been true. Carrick would probably shine more playing next to better midfield partners in some of the top European sides, rather than trying to carry our midfield all by himself.
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Should we only judge Carrick and Alonso over the two most recent seasons though? You're comparing Carrick at his peak to Alonso somewhat off it, hardly seems fair. Over their careers Alonso has certainly been the better player. Plus I wouldn't have said Alonso was ever at the very top level of midfielder either, quality though he is.

I'd tend to agree with the idea that the standard of midfielder in the PL is relatively low. A player like Busquets, for example, would be the best cm in the PL by some distance, yet is arguably only the 3rd/4th best midfielder in the Barca team.
 
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