Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?

Carrick is a great player, in my eyes our most important player by quite a margin - but some people overrate him a lot because he is a star in a pitch-black sky in our midfield.

Generally he is only compared to other who plays his role and in the top clubs there are only Pirlo/Gerrard and Alonso doing that. People don't really bring up the fact that Carrick had less key-passes per game for example than Chris Brunt, Dembele, Granero, Milner, Mark noble etc etc etc.

This is not the only part of his game that suffers, how much he helps the offense, scoring, assists, heading, how much he runs and the intensity it is at, speed, dribbling yada yada yada. Of course these aren't main skills a deep lying play-maker needs, so it is obvious he doesn't have them and they don't make him much worse at all.

The problem though is that there is no midfield-two in the world right now who has a deep lying play-maker and looks complete. In fact Real Madrid has abandoned it even if Alonso is 2 years younger than Carrick because there was never any partner that made it work. Alonso is the only central midfielder in Madrid that is top 3 in his position but they still choose to bench him.

We ironically play pretty much the same way as Liverpool does but with better players.
 
Stop using key passes to make a point - it doesn't augment an argument, unless used right.
 
MoneyMay said:
Stop using key passes to make a point - it doesn't augment an argument, unless used right.
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Agree that it was a bad stat to use but didn't want to seem overly negative but here is a list of the stats that shows the same point. Shots, assists, offensive headers, key passes, average position on the pitch will illustrate the same point.

Not a wild statement of course, just stating that creatively, offensively and defensively he isn't at a level to compete with the best in the world.

He shouldn't be because he doesn't have that role, just trying to portray the problem with the role he does have though.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Shots, assists, offensive headers, key passes, average position on the pitch will illustrate the same point.
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Mate, key passes, unless used right, is a glorified stat. It basically translates to "shot assist". You would need a diagram to show where the key passes came from, otherwise it doesn't really mean much. In addition to this, Carrick having 1 key pass compared to Cabaye's 23 key passes could be misleading in the sense that the key passes for the latter have all come from outside the box, whereas the key pass for the former was in the box and the team scored as a result - for example.
 
MoneyMay said:
Mate, key passes, unless used right, is a glorified stat. It basically translates to "shot assist". You would need a diagram to show where the key passes came from, otherwise it doesn't really mean much. In addition to this, Carrick having 1 key pass compared to Cabaye's 23 key passes could be misleading in the sense that the key passes for the latter have all come from outside the box, whereas the key pass for the former was in the box and the team scored as a result - for example.
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Edited my post above.
 
Good news.

We have done some great business since the window shut. Keeping Rooney, getting Januzaj sorted, now Carrick. Very important steps.
 
sullydnl said:
Should we only judge Carrick and Alonso over the two most recent seasons though? You're comparing Carrick at his peak to Alonso somewhat off it, hardly seems fair. Over their careers Alonso has certainly been the better player. Plus I wouldn't have said Alonso was ever at the very top level of midfielder either, quality though he is.
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No, of course not. But the specific conversation was about the current level of midfielders in the PL and elsewhere. Currently, Carrick is comfortably the better player, but you'll find a lot of people will still automatically assume the likes of Alonso are better based on the past and on the 'well, he plays in La Liga so he must be' attitude.

sullydnl said:
I'd tend to agree with the idea that the standard of midfielder in the PL is relatively low. A player like Busquets, for example, would be the best cm in the PL by some distance, yet is arguably only the 3rd/4th best midfielder in the Barca team.
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This is the bit I disagree with. I think he'd have a good chance of being the best, but I doubt he'd be the best by any great distance. It is harder to shine as a midfielder in the top PL teams, with fewer top midfielders around you, less emphasis on the midfield overall, and a style of football which makes space and time on the ball much harder to find. For one thing, look at the sort of physical contact which Busquets uses to win free-kicks in every single game. In the PL, that sort of jostling is something which you have to endure almost constantly when you're on the ball, and the referee isn't going to give a shit about it.

It's easy to look good when you always play alongside Xavi, Iniesta and Messi against a much worse team who are nonetheless trying to play good football against you. Try partnering him with Fellaini in midfield against the sort of dirty tactics Carrick gets from people like Nzonzi, Cabaye, Gardner etc and see if he looks 'the best in the PL by some distance.'
 
Annahnomoss said:
Agree that it was a bad stat to use but didn't want to seem overly negative but here is a list of the stats that shows the same point. Shots, assists, offensive headers, key passes, average position on the pitch will illustrate the same point.

Not a wild statement of course, just stating that creatively, offensively and defensively he isn't at a level to compete with the best in the world.

He shouldn't be because he doesn't have that role, just trying to portray the problem with the role he does have though.
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His average position acts against your argument... Carrick has made numerous passes that have led to goals - assists and key passes are not that great to use for him, unless used within good context. It was the same as Modric in his final season - he had four goals and four assists, which is pretty poor for a midfielder of his ilk when you look at it at face value. However, Tottenham's goals always started with him. Carrick and Modric are obviously different players, but you're wanting Carrick to be a player that he's not. He's got the quality to make excellent passes, but his job is usually to stay in a fixed position in midfield, while his partners do the running offensively (Cleverley, Anderson, Giggs, and Fellaini). The last time he was allowed to play as the more adventurous midfielder was with Scholes.

I also don't understand why you would portray a problem with his role, if you don't expect that of him?
 
Anyone who still questions how good this guy is and how important he is to our team only needs to look at how we've played since he's been out to surely be convinced about him now. People say our midfield has looked ordinary, even with him in it. Well we're awful, truly awful without him.
 
Hey guys, remember last season when we were all praying that Carrick wouldn't get injured? I give you: Manchester United with injured Carrick. It's turning out like how we dreamt it.
 
It really is scary how much we rely on him. Even with him we aren't anything amazing, but without him? In fact I'd like to see a comparison of the last 3 years of our record with and without Carrick.
 
And then you see a thread implying him as the one that holding back our midfield progress. You can only smirk and shaking your head, reading that.
 
Last year we really did get lucky.

Keeping him fit all season in the form he was in, was probably what won us the league (along with RVP).

Tonight and the recent games show, without him we have no positive passers who can take the game and control tempo.

Last year we should have addressed this weakness before the new season came, but we have failed and now we are suffering because of it.

I really do hope he can return fit and ready for the christmas run, as we desperately need him.
 
We spent the entirety of last season saying we would be fecked if Carrick got injured.

We are seeing first hand now.
 
Any idea when he'll be back? We're absolutely fecked without him, no one to take the ball off the CBs.
 
akash02 said:
We spent the entirety of last season saying we would be fecked if Carrick got injured.

We are seeing first hand now.
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It's been a lot of fans main concern for 3 years and it's not been fixed. fecking criminal really. At least go 3 in the middle until he's back
 
Typical the time he's out is the period where the games are most stacked!

Earlier in the season it might have been 2-3games over one of those dam international breaks.
 
We've missed him big time this season IMO, and I can only really echo the more positive posts above. Plays 90 minutes in an area of the pitch that takes some real guts to perform in, and generally does a great job of it. Always presents himself as an option in attack and does the basics really well. Decent range of passing, keeps things ticking over and as people have pointed out previously, his ability to read the game has improved no end over the past couple of years IMO. He's at that stage in his career now where he can control the pace and tempo of a game.

Cleverly has taken some stick this season for his performances, but I think he would look twice the player when partnered with Carrick in the centre of the park. He's the glue that holds this team together for me.
 
We do miss him but it's not like we were tearing it up and controlling games before he got injured.
 
Yes we need him back as soon as possible. But there is still a large chunk of the season remaining, I don't want to see him rushed back. If the team can get on a little run, hopefully we can ease him back at a more suitable rate.
 

This is a stat from the end of last season, and shows exactly why his absence is such a massive loss to us this season.
 
although Moyes was saying he's hoping for a Christmas miracle to see Carrick (and VP) back, hopefully that means he's not too far from at least being in the mixer.

Back for Tottenham would be good.
 
We don't need him until the Spurs' game so I think the focus all along has been to get him fit for that one..
 
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