behave Cider
Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?
- Thread starter Carl
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By any definition of 'world-class' which isn't literally the best player in the world in their position then of course he is. He is, at very worst, the second best central midfielder in one of the best leagues in the world (and he's been better than Yaya this season).
This.
If offered a straight swap Martinez I would take on potential/age. Alonso I wouldn't actually bother to take on the adjustment risk, marginally better really. Busquets is the standout, head and shoulders above the rest.
A rare terrible post from you Cider, I'm kinda speechless tbh when I read that the likes of Silva, Mascherano, Pepe and even Javi Martinez are all better than Carrick.Khedira is an entirely different player so I have no idea how you can think he'd be better than him there
I don't think you could pick out any pass from Rooney this season that rivals the quality of his assist to Hernández v Chelsea or the importance of his assist to Hernández v Newcastle. He's not consistently playing those passes week in, week out but then no-one is. If he's doing that once a month then he's still doing it more often than anyone besides Pirlo and possibly Schweinsteiger. What he is doing week in, week out is stuff like this:
And then he's backing it up with a kind of swagger he's never shown before.
Martinez was my absolute dream signing prior to last summer, he would have been the perfect long-term replacement for Carrick. In addition the transfer saga would likely have literally killed a number of muppets, so it was a blow in more than one sense to see him sign for Bayern.
Besides Busquets, Schweinsteiger, and Yaya (to a lesser extent), there are no better players that can do what Carrick does as well. And I'd wager to say that based on the past two seasons' form, Carrick is on par with the best in the world. Even Alonso hasn't been able to hit the heights that Carrick has over the past several years. Cider you are really underestimating Carrick here. He has been nothing short of phenomenal this season.
The list was based from a purely defensive point of view due to the fact that I obviously don't rate Carrick's influence in the attacking phase as highly as most on here seem to. In terms of breaking up opposition play I believe that all those players can do it better job than Carrick from a CM position (whether they're traditionally CB's or not, they're all very strong DM's also); and imo that's by far the most important aspect of Carrick's game for United.
Everyone seems to disagree though so I concede that I'm probably wrong; it's difficult to disagree with a lot of the arguments to the contrary.
Don't agree with that, don't think he's World Class, despite how good he has been this season.
First of all, we can't judge a player based on one season. He has been brilliant, no doubt, but surely he'd have to maintain this level for more than one season for it to be considered his natural level? It's unfair to judge other players on their form over a few seasons while judging Carrick only at his peak.
Second, even if he was the best midfielder in the league that wouldn't automatically make him world class. By that logic there should be a fair few world class right backs in the league, but I don't see that many. You should judge players based on their actual quality rather than how many other players there are in a league/team that are better than them.
Watching him for Bayern this season you can really see his limitations as a midfielder. Great at the defensive stuff but really isn't a very good passer of the ball. He was a big reason Bayern lost that second leg to Arsenal IMO.
He is yong and lernin though..
If you could break down his best qualities and their importance to our team, I would rank (based on this season):
1. Retain possession and keep our play ticking over
2. Creative contribution to our attacks
3. Defensive contributions such as interceptions
He's been far more vital to out attacks this season as we have been playing through the center a lot more, given how out of form our wingers have been.
If we are talking purely defensive contributions, which I'm assuming you think discounts the ability to retain possession, making yourself available for a pass from our defenders etc and is more about tough tackling and a tremendous engine, then Busquets isn't all that great either.
I didn't mean to just join the bandwagon of disagreements tbh. For one or two players (Mascherano and Martinez) I could understand you favoring their defensive abilities over Carrick's because we would have seen them play in that DM position for a decent number matches.
It's for the likes of Pepe and Thiago Silva that I'm most surprised, well for Thiago Silva more than anything else
He was just as good last season though; arguably better. I had him as our player of the year last season.
Apart from the ones mentioend... This is one my favourite Carrick passes of the season
There was also one (of many) against Swansea that was particularly amazing... and his raking bendy pass that led to Kagawa's second against Norwich.
There was also one (of many) against Swansea that was particularly amazing... and his raking bendy pass that led to Kagawa's second against Norwich.
Carrick deserves to be the Man United player of the season
Yeah, agree with that, don't think I would swap Carrick with Alonso, too much of a risk for only a slight improvement IMO.
First person I've heard say he was better last season, though I have heard a few people say he was about as good. I don't agree though, I think he has been significantly better this season. SAF seems to agree with me, for what it's worth.
"I think he's been magnificent," Sir Alex said of Carrick on the club's official website. "It's his best-ever season at the club and he's commanding that position. He's doing absolutely brilliantly."
That was back in January, so unless you think his form has declined...
Good call. I can see him winning the players' vote, certainly.
It would be a travesty if anyone else won it. Van Persie had a brilliant first half to the season, Vidic has been very good after a rocky start, Evans improved on last season again, Rafael had great games - but the one player who's been consistently excellent for United this season is Carrick.
Whilst I reckon he fully deserves a bit of personal recognition with awards, I can see RVP taking a clean sweep at the United awards...and again RVP along with Bale and Suarez in the big ones.
He should be winning the Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year award if our fans are true to their words this season, but then again the power of popularity over performance may prevail. Many of us thought he'd be up there winning something last season too, but at the end of the day I'm sure he's more than happy to have medals around his neck even if he isn't winning personal awards!
He should be winning the Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year award if our fans are true to their words this season, but then again the power of popularity over performance may prevail. Many of us thought he'd be up there winning something last season too, but at the end of the day I'm sure he's more than happy to have medals around his neck even if he isn't winning personal awards!
That catchy song really helps him getting recognition. Every game, you could hear the fans mostly sing his name, more so than any other player's name in the league (by other club fans). And deservedly so.
I don't think you could pick out any pass from Rooney this season that rivals the quality of his assist to Hernández v Chelsea or the importance of his assist to Hernández v Newcastle. He's not consistently playing those passes week in, week out but then no-one is. If he's doing that once a month then he's still doing it more often than anyone besides Pirlo and possibly Schweinsteiger. What he is doing week in, week out is stuff like this:
And then he's backing it up with a kind of swagger he's never shown before.
Quality.. One to RVP in Europe vs Cluj(?)
Importance.. Back heel assist to RVP to make it 4-3 vs Reading
Schweinsteiger is cm(box to box), as are Toure and Vidal(he is probably most offensive Juve's midfielder out of 3, so you can't say he is better than Carrick in his position). Mascherano in his liverpool days wasn't better than Carrick is today, but even if he was, he isn't at the moment better option than him. Martinez is tough one, he is good player, and will become even better without a doubt, but I don't think he is at the moment better than Carrick.
As for Busquets and Alonso, they are excellent, so I won't argue with that(even though I wouldn't swap Carrick for Alonso).
As for that prediction about his importance, you simply cannot predict that.
He is our best player in almost every game, and that's not because we have no other options(we have players like Vidic, Ferdinand, van Persie, Rooney after all), but it's because he is that bloody good.
Sorry, but that list is really laughable, I won't even bother to say why because it's obvious.
Also factor in that the majority of them are playing with partners of equal of similar footing. Carrick over the past few years has had lots of partners but he's not had many who were able to really take their full half of the midfield burden or even cover for him in a off day.
This post would have been a whole lot better if you'd just said "the Alonsos of this world".
Cider, don't be discouraged. I completely understand your notions in that original post.
Personally, I pretty much agree that all of those players would offer something different given the like for like role of Carrick. A couple there are good defensive minded ground duel winners, a couple are tight with control and passing and a couple of them are hard snapping shins midfielders (well CB's who sometimes play in midfield). The only one there for me that is really like for like for me is Alonso. Alonso doesn't have the stellar defensive side but he makes up for it like Carrick with good positioning and an excellent range of passing.
I'll still maintain that for a defensive midfielder in the Premier League that Carrick's inability to shepherd play and critically win ball is the only thing that would be improved if you stuck one of those like for like players there. Alonso despite his lack of defensive mobility is much much better with the ball at feet and is not afraid to cynically foul a player or stick a boot in even if he's not a chance to win the ball.
So all in all I didn't think it was a bad post to be honest. I personally even think that Carrick still hasn't looked as comfortable this season as when he played with Fletcher (in the big games, despite his superb form and being one of our best players this year). When Fletch was there doing all the closing and ball winning giving Carrick the ability to sit off and sit off comfortably and turn defense into attack. It was Carricks bread and butter. Play being moved around him to sit in the spaces positioned well to intercept. When he's the one that needs to be moving the play and closing players it totally stunts his ability to make intercepts.
This is where I think you've made excellent points. Another player like this to do the shin snapping and run and gun work in midfield would be ideal now that Fletcher is sidelined. It's the one ingredient I think that has unbalanced us at times this season and maybe made us a bit leaky at the back.
My main complaint of Carrick was always that he didn't have the balls to control our play and midfield, especially when Scholes was absent. He always had the ability it was more of his mentality that was the isssue. This season he has stepped it up and is suddenly controlling things in midfield, on his own. He's been absolutely brilliant and I wouldn't swap him for any of those players cider listed (not even busquets and alonso).
Would most of you who think he's a fantastic player want a hard man in beside him if we're playing a 4-2-3-1?
Not for me, at least not if Vidic is in form.
With De Gea in goal, Evra still a very decent LB, Rafael emerging as a very decent left back, Vidic in full riot, and your pick of either Rio or Evans, there's really no need for a hard man to bestride Carrick.
I was offensive, creative players. If we're going 4231 I'd want a more creative player to reload the cannon one Carrick has cleaned things up. That was supposed to be Cleverley but after a bright start this season he's drifted off. It could have been Ando but he can't be bothered to take care of himself and fulfill his potential. Many posts on the caf have been dedicated to a central midfielder. Whatever the answer is I don't think we need a hard man unless the idea is to push Carrick up. We shall see. I was really impressed with Barkley today but he's very young -- but also very good.
But you do realize that is a whole bunch of 'If this an that and this and that' when playing 38 games a season there is no guaranteed bank on that... Not trying to have a go.
Wouldn't the better option be getting him free of extensive closing/challenging/marking by making his role the second part of a deeper combination of midfielders which allows him to play in the space and use his skills of interception?
When we had Hargreaves and Fletcher the balance in his game was a lot better. Some defense and some attack. Now we've seen his game really flourish in attack this season while for me his defensive side has been a bit lax. I think it's the perfect time to get a hard man in beside him and keep that run of form going. Of course when we want to shut games out and have to have someone breaking up play there is the extra player there to either directly replace him or keep him tight while we defend.
Part of the counter attacking problem we've faced this year has been the looseness of his closing and tackling in that defensive box to circle area.
edit: When we had Harg and Fletch we also had Ronaldo which was an instant look up and hit it diagonal iWin pass.
Wouldn't the better option be getting him free of extensive closing/challenging/marking by making his role the second part of a deeper combination of midfielders which allows him to play in the space and use his skills of interception?
When we had Hargreaves and Fletcher the balance in his game was a lot better. Some defense and some attack. Now we've seen his game really flourish in attack this season while for me his defensive side has been a bit lax. I think it's the perfect time to get a hard man in beside him and keep that run of form going. Of course when we want to shut games out and have to have someone breaking up play there is the extra player there to either directly replace him or keep him tight while we defend.
Part of the counter attacking problem we've faced this year has been the looseness of his closing and tackling in that defensive box to circle area.
edit: When we had Harg and Fletch we also had Ronaldo which was an instant look up and hit it diagonal iWin pass.
Not so much a hard man but a ball winner who can play a bit would be ideal. A M'Villa type would suit although he seems to have gone off the boil lately.
Does no one remember SAF coming out with this in preseason?
SAF is never going to get the "hard man" you and others are after because he thinks they have no place in the modern game. The fact that he's deployed Jones in the midfield in some of our toughest games sort of contradicts what he says but I reckon SAF thinks there is no point buying someone to do that for 4-5 games when he can just use Jones there on these 'one-off' occasions.
It's not that SAF doesn't recognise we need a CM he clearly states he does its just not the type that everyone seems to think we need. He wants a Scholes who we all know is naturally offensive.
This is pretty much it.
The crunching tackles of Keano type of player wouldn't last very long in today's English prem for a couple of reasons. First, the red cards would be flying all over the place. And second, you get yourself hurt too often.
Look at Carrick. Does he EVER get hurt? Nope. Does he ever get sent off? I don't recall it ever happening. Yet somehow he cleans things up nicely.
And when we do need an extra pair of titanium cojones, to deal with Ronaldo or whoever, we can call upon Phil Jones.
I'm still buzzing over what I've seen today in Ross Barkley. Fergie, sign the boy!
I would love for another Carrick type midfielder.
Don't need to be a specific 'hard man', but more of a skilful player who can also hold his own. The type like Fergie said: Modric, Yaya, (younger) Gerrard, and Wilshere. I thought Dembele could be the answer, but surprisingly Fergie has never shown any interest on him.
I don't know why people think Carrick-Fletcher partnership was a success. I think that's one of the most uninspiring era for our midfield when those two was in charge.
I don't know why people think Carrick-Fletcher partnership was a success. I think that's one of the most uninspiring era for our midfield when those two was in charge.
I agree with you onm both counts, a dynamic but skillfull player would have been ideal and I still think Dembele would have been a brilliant signing.
I'd prefer someone at once combative and creative. Someone in the Wilshere mode. Players like that have plenty of fight and like a crunching tackle, which would indeed complement Carrick. But Carrick is definitely still at his best when there's not too much onus on him to run forwards with the ball - he needs a partner whose instinct is to play ahead of him, not hang behind.
Just imagine a midfield partnership of Wilshere and Carrick... our 'midfield problems' would vanish in a puff of smoke.
EDIT: On an unrelated note, someone should definitely make a proper goals, assists and key passes compilation for Carrick this season. Those GIFs above really get the juices flowing but they barely scratch the surface of a catalogue of amazing passes this year.
Just imagine a midfield partnership of Wilshere and Carrick... our 'midfield problems' would vanish in a puff of smoke.
EDIT: On an unrelated note, someone should definitely make a proper goals, assists and key passes compilation for Carrick this season. Those GIFs above really get the juices flowing but they barely scratch the surface of a catalogue of amazing passes this year.
Well, except that Wilshere is always injured....