I'm confused. Where's Micah?
Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?
- Thread starter Carl
- Start date
Some of you are talking about Carrick like he is important just because we have no other options.
How many players in the world would actually play over him in our first XI even if we have them?
Sure there's lot of them who would partner him in midfield, but I don't see two, maybe three(even that's a questionable) kicking him out of our first XI.
We are talking about our best, and most consistent player by miles in last two seasons.
How many players in the world would actually play over him in our first XI even if we have them?
Sure there's lot of them who would partner him in midfield, but I don't see two, maybe three(even that's a questionable) kicking him out of our first XI.
We are talking about our best, and most consistent player by miles in last two seasons.
I can think of a significant number of players who'd be better at Carrick's role than Michael Carrick is:
Sergio Busquets
Xabi Alonso
Thiago Silva
Javier Macherano
Ferreira Pepe
Javi Martinez
Sami Khedira
Arturo Vidal
I'm not trying to stag off Carrick, he's a great player and that, but he's not a better player than Wayne Rooney; not unless you distort the meaning of the word 'better' to 'only one who can play his role in whichever particular squad he happens to be a member of at any given moment'.
Sergio Busquets
Xabi Alonso
Thiago Silva
Javier Macherano
Ferreira Pepe
Javi Martinez
Sami Khedira
Arturo Vidal
I'm not trying to stag off Carrick, he's a great player and that, but he's not a better player than Wayne Rooney; not unless you distort the meaning of the word 'better' to 'only one who can play his role in whichever particular squad he happens to be a member of at any given moment'.
I hardly ever watch Serie A - so can't comment on Vidal - but Mascherano and Khedira are both better at playing Carrick's role? feck right off.
Silva, Martinez and Pepe aren't even proper central midfielders. They'ye great at running round tackling people but if you think that's all that Carrick brings to the team then you're not paying enough attention.
Busquets and Alonso I'll give you.
There's plenty of them really, he's a good player but not amongst the very best midfielders in the world. Busquets, Schweinsteiger, Toure, Alonso, Macherano (in his liverpool days), Martinez (arguably just as good, albeit different type of midfielder) and Vidal are all individually better players and would probably be better options there. That's not taking into account if we took a different type of midfield partnership, like having Modric or Gundogan in there next to someone. He's a very important member to our team and a very good player, but he's not one of the best midfielders in the world, and he wouldn't be this important to us if we had better options.
Better still, give them to SAF, who knows what Cider would use them for.
That list is laughable to be fair. Silva, Pepe and Mascherano better than Carrick at what he does? They're center backs(granted Mascherano's best position is up for debate). Khedira is more of a box to box midfielder, and isn't better than Carrick in the role than Carrick plays. Alonso and Busquets, fair enough.
If you think that's all Silva, Martinez and Pepe bring to the CM position then it is you who isn't paying enough attention.
Mascherano and Khedira would both get into our first XI ahead of Carrick imo and Arturo Vidal is perhaps the best defensive minded CM in the world (probably pipped there by Busquets though).
Definitely the wrong thread now though.
I'll grant you the post needs rewording:
They're all players who imo would get into our first XI at CM in place of Carrick and improve the team; not necessarily better than he in his specific role.
You really think Thiago Silva and Pepe who have basically only ever played as a center back would be better than Carrick in our current team? Mascherano and Khedira are both worse as well, though they'd do a decent job. The others are fair enough, though still debatable.
I don't know why I'm arguing about this though, just because Carrick is our most important player doesn't mean Rooney isn't better than him.
I don't know why I'm arguing about this though, just because Carrick is our most important player doesn't mean Rooney isn't better than him.
If you think that's all Silva, Martinez and Pepe bring to the CM position then it is you who isn't paying enough attention.
Mascherano and Khedira would both get into our first XI ahead of Carrick imo and Arturo Vidal is perhaps the best defensive minded CM in the world (probably pipped there by Busquets though).
Definitely the wrong thread now though.
I agree with you for the most part, apart from Pepe and Silva as I've never actually seen thiago silva play there and Pepe usually plays there just to be a dirty cnut and kick the opposition, and break up play. You forgot about Schweinsteiger and Toure as well though, who would easily get into our starting 11 over Carrick.
Still, I disagree. Carrick keeps our team ticking more than anyone. Now, if you put Khedira alongside Carrick, that would work. But Pepe and Silva have pretty much played centre back all their careers, so I dont see how you think they'd be better than Carrick in CM regardless of the role they play. I think you're underrating Carrick a lot.
Exactly, how many top level clubs only have ONE decent central midfielder who they can rely on every single week. He's been playing the position on his own for too long.
I'd love to see all these players mentioned play the way he's had to for the last few years...practically alone (well occasionally next to someone without legs or overweight, or someone who has just embarked on his first full season as a United player).
Just because they're predominantly center backs doesn't mean they're not also great defensive mids. The modern day Michael Carrick plays more or less as a CB in front of our back four for United imo; he uses positioning and interception rather than tough tackling, but the outcome is the same. He isn't the great passer of the ball he used to be (probably due to tactics rather than his having lost his touch) and the vast majority of our attacking influence is delegated elsewhere. As dependable and talented as he may be, I don't think he'd be getting into our first XI if SAF had the option of those players listed above.
Perhaps so. Central midfield has always been my blind spot from a tactical analysis point of view.
I think Martinez could be better than Carrick at some point in the near future but he's definitely not there yet. He played centre back v us but he's not like Thiago Silva or Pepe, he's a natural centre mid that just got moved back to play there for one season. Vidal could play Carrick's role but not better than him, not in this season's form. Carrick's one of just eight players from the top five leagues in Europe that makes 70+ passes a game. He might not be as good as Schweinsteiger, Toure or Pirlo but he's in that bracket on this season alone. Khedira, Mascherano, Pepe and Thiago Silva just aren't capable of that and Vidal and Martinez still defer to their midfield partners. Carrick's the dominant midfielder in a top European team but for some reason he's still not rated as such by his own fans.
Anyone who thinks Carrick is a jumped up CB in midfield hasn't seen Carrick play.
In detail then, how would you describe his play?
I'm moving this to the Carrick thread btw. Reply there.
In detail then, how would you describe his play?
He's a central midfielder who uses his superb positional sense to intercept and break-up opposition attacks before they reach our defence. He is then also relied upon to be a constant out ball for everyone on the pitch, as he uses his excellent passing ability (which I'd say is better then ever by the way) to keep possession ticking over, either by playing a number of simple short passes in a short period of time, before playing balls into the feet of our forwards, or finding our wingers - which is generally where we launch the majority of our attacks from.
There are few players around who are able to do the defensive work that Carrick does who can then also use the ball as well as he does. There are even fewer still who can do this consitantly and almost every week whilst playing in a midfield 2 - often when you're midfield partner is going on a walk about.
There are few players around who are able to do the defensive work that Carrick does who can then also use the ball as well as he does. There are even fewer still who can do this consitantly and almost every week whilst playing in a midfield 2 - often when you're midfield partner is going on a walk about.
I'd say he plays very similar to Alonso and Busquets(I dont watch a huge amount of Serie A so can't really compare to anyone there). He plays deep and is a very good passer and makes interceptions, but rarely makes a crunching slide tackle. He doesn't join into the attack as much as his midfield partner will, but sits back more and is used as an out ball and is pretty much always available for a pass from anyone on the pitch. I can't see Pepe, Mascherano, Khedira or Silva doing this.
Agreed. Ciderman having a shocker this time.
I think you seriously underrate his passing abilities more than anything, to suggest the likes of Mascherano, Thiago Silva and Pepe could do a better job than him in his position.
This season in particular he's become a much more creative force in the side now that he isn't sitting behind Scholes, playing some sublime stuff and being at the centre of most of our play to one extent or another. This is without having a stable partner to play with as well.
Agree with that - Carrick is definitely a rare breed. We're lucky to have him, although it's perhaps been a bit short-sighted to set up so as to be so reliant on him. Replacing a player like that is going to be very difficult in the system we currently employ. I haven't seen much of Martinez this year but it's for that reason above that I remember hammering on to no end during the summer that he was someone we absolutely should not be letting get away.
As for that list, Alonso, Martinez (based on what I've seen before this year) and Carrick are comparable in terms of quality and what they offer in that that role. Busquets is a step above and the best in the business. The others are either different types of players, not as good or just players seemingly picked at random.
Busquets and Alonso yes, Martinez potentially yes. The others certainly not. You'de have to be out of your mind to play Mascherano, Pepe or Silva ahead of Micheal Carrick, completely bonkers.
Brwned pretty much nailed it. The idea that we'd be better off swapping Carrick for Thiago Silva, Pepe, or Mascherano with the aim of playing them in center mid is crazy.
Definitely Gareth Barry or Scott Parker though...
Hummels, Chiellini, Wanyama. Basically anyone that can run a little and plays defensively.
I agree with BD94 for the most part, but not so much AN.
Carrick's passing game is toned down a lot from his earlier career; he more often than not plays the simple sideways pass these days whilst the team relies upon other players to initiate attacking play. He's always an outlet, no doubt about that, but only because he's very rarely trying to put himself into a dangerous position from the opposition's PoV; he's an outlet in this sense in the same way Rio and Vidic are ever available to receive a pass (albeit with a little more forward intent). Carrick's major influence for me comes from his defensive play; his positioning and ability to intercept and interrupt opposition attacks is what makes him so important to the current United side; but that's not something I believe cannot be replicated by a more traditional defensive midfielder utilising the tough tackle as well as the interception.
Carrick's passing game is toned down a lot from his earlier career; he more often than not plays the simple sideways pass these days whilst the team relies upon other players to initiate attacking play. He's always an outlet, no doubt about that, but only because he's very rarely trying to put himself into a dangerous position from the opposition's PoV; he's an outlet in this sense in the same way Rio and Vidic are ever available to receive a pass (albeit with a little more forward intent). Carrick's major influence for me comes from his defensive play; his positioning and ability to intercept and interrupt opposition attacks is what makes him so important to the current United side; but that's not something I believe cannot be replicated by a more traditional defensive midfielder utilising the tough tackle as well as the interception.
Some great passes there, but they're few and far between from Carrick. You could pick out more or less the same selection of Wayne Rooney from Sunday's game against Stoke alone.
Maybe two years ago but he's been pinging excellent passes into the forwards in every single game this year. He's always been capable of those passes and you'd get a few gems a season but that Newcastle game summed him up this season. It's as if he's finally realised he can be a game-changer. Even after van Persie's missed a chance from his great pass he keeps looking for the killer ball and plays in another peach of a ball to Hernández in the dying seconds for the winner. He's been a consistently dominant force in the team this year primarily through that kind of passing and if we'd have played Vidal or Martinez in there instead of him there's no chance we would've won this league title. The wingers have been so poor that Carrick's had to step up his creative game; Vidal's not a good enough passer to do so and Martinez isn't ready for that midfield general role.
I don't even think Busquets would be better than Carrick for us. Simply doesn't possess that passing range to hurt teams from deep like Carrick can and he'd find himself isolated in midfield 10x as often. Busquets is still probably the better midfielder overall because because he'd similarly outshine Carrick in the Barcelona team. He's already edged out Toure and he's shown himself to be levels above Song so I have no doubt he'd keep Carrick out of the side, but it doesn't change the fact that Carrick's one of the few midfielders perfectly suited to our needs. There's very few midfielders that have his passing range and he complements that with an exemplary defensive game.
Have to respectfully disagree Cider. Carricks passing this season has been far more expressive then it has been for a very long time. I have nothing really to back that up other then my own memory of seeing him play, but he has got 4 assists this season in the League, and whilst I've not done the research, I'd venture a guess that that is far more then he's ever had for us... we've also seen all the .gifs/videos of loads of simply absurd passes he's made this season. (It'll make for one hell of a YouTube highlights package come the end of the season)
He's also always available for the pass because he's generally quite good at making space for himself, and he's technique/close control is good enough that he doesn't need a lot of space to operate in. We often find it difficult when opposition players restrict Carrick's space because we don't know where else to pass it too... and similarly we generally boss the games where Carrick is given the freedom of the pitch.
He's also always available for the pass because he's generally quite good at making space for himself, and he's technique/close control is good enough that he doesn't need a lot of space to operate in. We often find it difficult when opposition players restrict Carrick's space because we don't know where else to pass it too... and similarly we generally boss the games where Carrick is given the freedom of the pitch.
If anything since Scholes has been out of the team his passing has gotten a lot more adventerous. He used to be a bit guilty of not using his passing range and just giving it to Scholes but not this season. He's built up a brilliant partnership with RVP inparticularly, and his zipped passes into his feet have been one of the key features of his game.
I've always said he's a hybrid between a defensive midfielder and a playmaker, he doesn't quite offer you the passing of a Pirlo or Scholes but he's not too far off, he doesn't quite offer you the solidarity of a Mascherano but again he's not far off. He fits perfectly into our midfield as he can do a bit of both. I would only really swap him for Busquets and Alonso in that list, Martinez will overtake him too but not yet.
I'd agree with most of this; to be honest I haven't noticed any particular partnership with RvP having developed. Perhaps I'm judging Carrick to much from his previous style alongside Scholes than that of recent months.
Biscuits is the only player of Carrick's type who is better than him, Alonso has become overrated in recent years and people are weirdly blind to his limitations. There's maybe five other holding midfielders (of differing types) who you'd say are better than Carrick, but no more than that.
He's been the standout player in a team which is cruising to the title, he should win the FWA, but then they recently gave it to a player who was the standout player for a team which came last, so, I guess they have a different way of looking at things.
Alonso overrated?
I had this discussion a few pages back, I got laughed at for suggesting Carrick was at least close to world class in his position for this exact argument.