Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?

Someone should do a video of all his touches against Newcastle. He was ripping Newcastle apart with his lobbed balls over the top of their defence.
 
Inspectah deck said:
Do you still think Xabi Alonso is "miles" better?
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I think he said Alonso "smiles" better. What is true, while Xabi is a spanish Ewan Mcgregor, Carrick's grin is almost a constipated one.

But as a player Carrick is plain brilliant. Yesterday was a master class of second half.
 
Easily our most important midfielder this season, thank god as we don't really have anyone else with his experience that can play 90 minutes every game in central midfield.
 
KingEric7 said:
Scholes must still be absolutely incredible in training or something, causing Carrick to be in a state of awe whilst being on the same pitch as him. I dunno, but the difference in mentality and approach is pretty considerable when he's the most experienced one in our midfield. His passing at the moment is a bit more like how it was in 07/08, in my opinion. Not that it was ever bad or anything close to being poor, but my memory tells me he was more consistent in how adventurous he was. I remember thinking back then he'd score a shite load of goals if he just passed it into the net.
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Agree with this. Think it's also because Scholes is more 'creative' by definition and hence there is this terrible habit within the team of just passing the ball to him. It doesn't seem to be a condition that only Carrick suffers from - whoever plays with Scholes just seems to defer any sort of responsibility to him.
 
He is ticking over nicely our Carrick, isn't he? Played some excellent stuff over the last few weeks and deserves all the plaudits he gets.
 
I've criticised him plenty but only because I know he's capable of this sort of form. All it's needed is a shift in mentality.

The ball to Hernandez at the end, last season he would have just fed that out to Valencia so it's great to see.
 
MrMojo said:
I've criticised him plenty but only because I know he's capable of this sort of form. All it's needed is a shift in mentality.

The ball to Hernandez at the end, last season he would have just fed that out to Valencia so it's great to see.
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Ayee, I've always said that. Irritates the feck out of me times.
 
A Cleverley/Carrick combo in the middle with Gerrard supporting could have been amazing.

Carrick is and has always been international quality. What is wrong with all the English managers?

To see Milner, Barry, Parker etc get caps ahead of Carrick is a huge shame sums up what's wrong with English football at the moment.
 
RedDevilCanuck said:
A Cleverley/Carrick combo in the middle with Gerrard supporting could have been amazing.

Carrick is and has always been international quality. What is wrong with all the English managers?

To see Milner, Barry, Parker etc get caps ahead of Carrick is a huge shame sums up what's wrong with English football at the moment.
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Tbf though, even as one of Carrick's biggest defenders he has to take some of the blame for that. As much what was needed for united over the years there's no doubting that he's had the talent to do more consistently as in the last 2 games with his passing. He's not always been helped with his midfield partners but he's always been able to give more and take more responsibility than he typically does.

That said England have really missed a trick with him, even not giving the full range he has he still should have been part of the team more often.
 
MrMojo said:
I've criticised him plenty but only because I know he's capable of this sort of form. All it's needed is a shift in mentality.

The ball to Hernandez at the end, last season he would have just fed that out to Valencia so it's great to see.
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Well I suppose he knew how that would turn out, so decided to cross it himself. You are right though, he should have more confidence in his ability, as we all know he is capable.
 
RedDevilCanuck said:
A Cleverley/Carrick combo in the middle with Gerrard supporting could have been amazing.

Carrick is and has always been international quality. What is wrong with all the English managers?

To see Milner, Barry, Parker etc get caps ahead of Carrick is a huge shame sums up what's wrong with English football at the moment.
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That's a bit too black and white, over the last two years his form has been a bit meh, hence Barry getting the starting spot.

Previous to that you could understand managers trying to make Gerrard/Lampard work, even if we did try for too long.
 
Summit said:
Well I suppose he knew how that would turn out, so decided to cross it himself. You are right though, he should have more confidence in his ability, as we all know he is capable.
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Exactly, the ball to Hernandez looked good but for his ability I reckon it was relatively easy. The key was deciding to make that pass in the first place, which has been his problem.

Makes me laugh now when you consider the posters who defended him previously by claiming it wasn't his job to do this or that it was impossible to be a midfielder who can both create and defend.
 
It's much easier to play that pass into Hernandez when you can actually allow yourself not to sit 10 yards deeper than the halfway line in fear of your midfield partner getting overrun the moment we lose posession.

Give Carrick someone who can run alongside him and he springs to life. It's unfair to ask him to be the guy who plays the through balls when he has to knock those through balls 60 yards. The moment Scholes was replaced by Cleverley he sprung into life and started popping up in and around the penalty area even. He's got the technique and the vision to play in our forwards but we need to get him into the sort of areas from which he can cause damage.

Brilliant piece of play for van Persie's goal as well. Great awareness.
 
His ball to both Hernandez and RVP were nothing short of class. People keep on talking about finding a replacement for Scholes. What about this man?

He's so important to us, and I hope that he'll be able to continue on for a very long time.
 
marjen said:
It's much easier to play that pass into Hernandez when you can actually allow yourself not to sit 10 yards deeper than the halfway line in fear of your midfield partner getting overrun the moment we lose posession.

Give Carrick someone who can run alongside him and he springs to life. It's unfair to ask him to be the guy who plays the through balls when he has to knock those through balls 60 yards. The moment Scholes was replaced by Cleverley he sprung into life and started popping up in and around the penalty area even. He's got the technique and the vision to play in our forwards but we need to get him into the sort of areas from which he can cause damage.

Brilliant piece of play for van Persie's goal as well. Great awareness.
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A myth.

Throughout his time with us Carrick had played predominantly next to a post 30 Scholes. If your rule is true, how has Carrick ever performed well?
 
MrMojo said:
A myth.

Throughout his time with us Carrick had played predominantly next to a post 30 Scholes. If your rule is true, how has Carrick ever performed well?
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He has performed well, albeit always deferring to Scholes when paired with him. One of the main criticisms of Carrick is his lack of authority and drive, and while this is certaintly not Scholes fault, it's no coincidence that he takes more responsibility whenever he's not playing next to him.

But it's no myth that not having the Scholes of this season (I.E. with no legs, a different proposition entirely even to last years Schols) next to him allows him more freedom.

And it's very fecking obviously no myth that it's far easier to play through balls when your 30 yards away from the goal as opposed to 60 yards.

So what exactly are you arguing?
 
marjen said:
He has performed well, albeit always deferring to Scholes when paired with him. One of the main criticisms of Carrick is his lack of authority and drive, and while this is certaintly not Scholes fault, it's no coincidence that he takes more responsibility whenever he's not playing next to him.

But it's no myth that not having the Scholes of this season (I.E. with no legs, a different proposition entirely even to last years Schols) next to him allows him more freedom.

And it's very fecking obviously no myth that it's far easier to play through balls when your 30 yards away from the goal as opposed to 60 yards.

So what exactly are you arguing?
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My argument is that when Carrick plays poorly it isn't down to Scholes and his lack of running. That's the myth you're continuing here.

Scholes couldn't run last season, but the general consensus is that Carrick performed well. So that alone blows the theory.

All that stops Carrick from playing well is his own shell that he sometimes slips into and his own lack of speed.

Carrick's spent most of his career with us next to a Scholes who can't run.
 
MrMojo said:
My argument is that when Carrick plays poorly it isn't down to Scholes and his lack of running. That's the myth you're continuing here.

Scholes couldn't run last season, but the general consensus is that Carrick performed well. So that alone blows the theory.

All that stops Carrick from playing well is his own shell that he sometimes slips into and his own lack of speed.

Carrick's spent most of his career with us next to a Scholes who can't run.
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I think Scholes' legs has gradually gone these last couple of years, and it's getting worse. It's not like Scholes wasn't mobile at 32.

Last season he managed to perform well enough, probably due to him being fresh. It was sort of like an indian summer I think. But this season he's just shot.

And I've never seen Carrick as authorative as on occasion these last couple of weeks. He's been driving us on at times. It's great to watch.

And lastly; I'm not saying whenever Carrick's playing shit it's because Scholes is playing next to him (although I do think Carrick goes into his shell a bit when playing with Scholes). I'm saying Carrick's offensive contribution will always be better when he's got someone with legs next to him in a midfield two, as it allows him the freedom to go forward a lot more.

Just look at his contribution in terms of goals and assists. It's higher whenever he's been paired with partners who can run. And it's quite obvious why.
 
marjen said:
I think Scholes' legs has gradually gone these last couple of years, and it's getting worse. It's not like Scholes wasn't mobile at 32.

Last season he managed to perform well enough, probably due to him being fresh. It was sort of like an indian summer I think. But this season he's just shot.

And I've never seen Carrick as authorative as on occasion these last couple of weeks. He's been driving us on at times. It's great to watch.

And lastly; I'm not saying whenever Carrick's playing shit it's because Scholes is playing next to him (although I do think Carrick goes into his shell a bit when playing with Scholes). I'm saying Carrick's offensive contribution will always be better when he's got someone with legs next to him in a midfield two, as it allows him the freedom to go forward a lot more.

Just look at his contribution in terms of goals and assists. It's higher whenever he's been paired with partners who can run. And it's quite obvious why.
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The point here is that Carrick performed well last season next to Scholes, so it seems like excuse making this season to put his poor early form down his ginger pal, which is what you did.

I agree Carrick this season has become more adventurous and driven, but I can't help but feel that's because we've found ourselves in so many desperate situations. So at the weekend we can put his second half performance down to Cleverley coming on or we can ask was it because we desperately needed a goal again. I'm leaning to the latter. His ball to Hernandez had nothing to do with who his midfield partner was, but rather our situation.
 
MrMojo said:
The point here is that Carrick performed well last season next to Scholes, so it seems like excuse making this season to put his poor early form down his ginger pal, which is what you did.

I agree Carrick this season has become more adventurous and driven, but I can't help but feel that's because we've found ourselves in so many desperate situations. So at the weekend we can put his second half performance down to Cleverley coming on or we can ask was it because we desperately needed a goal again. I'm leaning to the latter. His ball to Hernandez had nothing to do with who his midfield partner was, but rather our situation.
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No, I've stated myself that Carrick's been largely poor this season up until the last month or so.

I don't make excuses for him, he's an experienced player who's won what's there to win in club football, but I think it's clear as day that our midfield can allow itself to play much higher up the pitch whenever Scholes isn't playing as part of a midfield two these days. As a result, Carrick's closer to the area and finds it easier to contribute offensively. It's not only one game, look at the games vs Reading and Swansea. Or hell, look at the periods he was partnered with Fletcher a couple of seasons ago.

I've not commented on what impact this has on his defensive contribution, as
a) I don't think he's been at his best this season and
b) I'm not really sure

However, I can't really believe you're trying to argue that Scholes (in his current state) isn't more difficult to partner than say Cleverley. I think that's blindingly obvious just by looking at our performances this season.

Carrick's best matches this season in my opinion:
Arsenal at home
Chelsea away (at least the first half and the last 20 minutes)
City away
Reading away
Swansea away
Sunderland at home
Newcastle at home

Now call me stupid but I can't remember Scholes playing with Carrick in a midfield two in any of those matches.
 
Scholes's effect depends on the context of the game. If teams sit back, than Scholes looks great and Carrick can do his job well as well as taking a few more risks going forward. If teams press us, then scholes comes under pressure and Carrick has to do more work than he can really do and it makes him look ineffecual and because of how deep he has to play he can't play many cutting balls.

That's pretty much true of all of Carricks midfield partners atm and in recent years. Against certain teams they can shine, Ando for example works well in open games and ineffectual in tight games. If you're midfield partner is having a bad day it inevitably puts pressure on you as well. During Carrick's time here he's rarely had a partner in their physical peak with good midfield experience and so in the middle performances from all have tended to fluctuate depending on the type of game and the combo tried.
 
To summarize my thoughts:

Carrick's not got much of a spine as a player. He'll shirk responsibility and resort to playing the easy passes and keep things ticking over by nature.

I think Fergie's wanting a bit more drive and auhtority from him. Last season he did an interview where he said it was time for Carrick to be the main man. And I do think he's trying to assert himself more this season than I've ever seen.

Unfortunately Scholesy's demise has coincided with this. Last season it worked quite well for a period when Scholes was asked to play once a week and Carrick was asked to sit and play the ball to him and in general cover the defense(although Carrick's best period was in november and december before Scholes returned) but now I think Scholes is too far off the physical level you need for Carrick to make up for it. Carrick basically has to do the defensive work of two, plus he don't get space because whenever teams put pressure on us Scholes doesn't have the movement or drive needed to allow us to play us out. This has never been Carrick's strong suit either, he'll need a mobile partner when we're pressed by teams.

And in general, Scholes playing means our play is 10-15 yards deeper. It's easily visible even to the naked eye, but it's blatantly obvious if you tro to notice it. Watch the difference in how high we pressed Swansea from the start compared to Newcastle. Obviously as a midfielder, the further away from goal you are the less likely you are to contribute offensively.
 
marjen said:
.I don't make excuses for him.
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You do though Marjen as shown below

marjen said:
It's much easier to play that pass into Hernandez when you can actually allow yourself not to sit 10 yards deeper than the halfway line in fear of your midfield partner getting overrun the moment we lose posession.

Give Carrick someone who can run alongside him and he springs to life.
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Difficult to debate when you keep claiming not to do something and then immediately follow it up by doing exactly that.

I take the point on Cleverley being maybe easier to play with, you'd think that with his increased running if nothing else. But then Cleverley plays further up the field than Scholes, therefore surely increasing Carrick's defensive duties.

I remember Carrick next to Fletcher in a two, I though it was crap, no pace, urgency or adventure. Ultimately his form, his choice of pass, his drive and tenacity is down to him.
 
Carrick and Fletcher as a partnership always seems to get underrated, Carrick could have done more in that but that had potential and was a big part of how solid our team was. A fully fit Fletcher with a Carrick in the form he has been in generally for the last 2 years or so would be great.
 
MrMojo said:
You do though Marjen as shown below



Difficult to debate when you keep claiming not to do something and then immediately follow it up by doing exactly that.

I take the point on Cleverley being maybe easier to play with, you'd think that with his increased running if nothing else. But then Cleverley plays further up the field than Scholes, therefore surely increasing Carrick's defensive duties.

I remember Carrick next to Fletcher in a two, I though it was crap, no pace, urgency or adventure. Ultimately his form, his choice of pass, his drive and tenacity is down to him.
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But Cleverley does cover when Carrick goes forward. If nothing else, the knowledge that if we lose the ball then Cleverley will sprint full pelt back to help out allows his partner to venture forward at times.

And the fact that Cleverley moves further upfield than Scholes is a good thing as far as Carrick is concerned when we've got the ball, it means he'll have an option other than the wide ball out to Valencia. It moves teams around. It's no coincidence that Carrick's suddenly started to play balls into the feet of the strikers like it's the easiest thing in the world. More movement means more space.

We've chased games all season - why do Carrick suddenly come up with assists now, when partnered with Cleverley? Why do he suddenly burst into the box now? He did against Sunderland when we lead 2-0. We did not chase that game.

And yes, of course it's up to him. As I said his character as a player isn't top notch. If it were he would be a top midfielder, amongst the best in his position.

I just think that Cleverley (or anyone who's a bit mobile) alongside him brings the best out of him in a way that Scholes never does. Or at least won't do anymore.
 
MrMojo said:
That's a bit too black and white, over the last two years his form has been a bit meh, hence Barry getting the starting spot.

Previous to that you could understand managers trying to make Gerrard/Lampard work, even if we did try for too long.
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He was England's best midfielder last season without anyone even close following, same as Rio was England's best CB.

You couldn't ask better form from those two, but it's the England's mentality that kept them out of England's team. There are stories he said he doesn't want to go to Euro if he is going to be on the bench most of the time, and he is right, he would be idiot to go there and sit on the bench in favour of the likes of Parker and Gerrard.

Saying that, I'm glad both him and Rio didn't go on Euro, they got their deserved summer break to recharge batteries and to play another good season for us.
 
marjen said:
But Cleverley does cover when Carrick goes forward. If nothing else, the knowledge that if we lose the ball then Cleverley will sprint full pelt back to help out allows his partner to venture forward at times.

And the fact that Cleverley moves further upfield than Scholes is a good thing as far as Carrick is concerned when we've got the ball, it means he'll have an option other than the wide ball out to Valencia. It moves teams around. It's no coincidence that Carrick's suddenly started to play balls into the feet of the strikers like it's the easiest thing in the world. More movement means more space.

We've chased games all season - why do Carrick suddenly come up with assists now, when partnered with Cleverley? Why do he suddenly burst into the box now? He did against Sunderland when we lead 2-0. We did not chase that game.

And yes, of course it's up to him. As I said his character as a player isn't top notch. If it were he would be a top midfielder, amongst the best in his position.

I just think that Cleverley (or anyone who's a bit mobile) alongside him brings the best out of him in a way that Scholes never does. Or at least won't do anymore.
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He used to do that all the time, with Scholes next to him.

That's the point here, he's played well and he's played poorly with various partners. There's no real trend to indicate his form correlates with his partner. He had the ultimate workhorse in Fletcher next to him at one point and whilst it was a solid midfield, Carrick was completely average in the attacking sense.

We'll see, if or when we get back to winning games relatively easy it'll be interesting, will Carrick go back to being safety first or will he continue in his current form. Like I say, I think the predicaments we keep finding ourselves in are driving him to push on more rather than his playing partner.
 
Looked absolutely knackered by the end today.

He's gonna need a rest at some point, but with no cover for him in the middle, you have to wonder when he's gonna get one.
 
He is simply the most important player in our team right now because:

1. We don't have any other midfielder who could offer protection to our defence like he does.

2. He is the only midfielder who seems to have the capability to actually last 90 mins of a game. The style of Kagawa, Anderson and Cleverley means they'll simply be knackered by 60-70 mins. Scholes obviously can't do it at his age neither can Giggs.

I can't see him missing a game at all.
 
Tooni said:
He is simply the most important player in our team right now because:

1. We don't have any other midfielder who could offer protection to our defence like he does.

2. He is the only midfielder who seems to have the capability to actually last 90 mins of a game. The style of Kagawa, Anderson and Cleverley means they'll simply be knackered by 60-70 mins. Scholes obviously can't do it at his age neither can Giggs.

I can't see him missing a game at all.
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I really, really hate this. After 100 years of midfielders lasting 90mins we apparently have now developed a new style of play meaning young players are knackered after 70mins.

Shows how short of options we are but changing the system to three midfielders should allow Carrick a day off.
 
If Carrick doesn't get a break soon he will get injured, and then we'll be fecked.

Really expected him to sit this one out.

Tooni said:
Scholes obviously can't do it at his age neither can Giggs.
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Giggs was stil going strong two hours into the Chelsea league cup match. Obviously using him like that's not ideal, but he doesn't generally tire much more than our other players.
 
Carrick seemed to sit more today and Cleverley was the more adventurous of the two. Probably to conserve energy after his exploits in the last game where he pretty much did it all by himself. If the player next to him can take control then it won't be a problem. He really looked tired, but Sir Alex said some of the players used far too much energy to win the last game. We will labour at times in games i reckon.
 
Think he'll miss the FA Cup tie against West Ham with Fletcher taking his place. Hopefully he can hold it together against Wigan, at least to give us a platform to finish the game with a win.
 
I worry about his mileage. He is no spring chicken but for the last few seasons he has played almost every single match. Surely fletcher will get a run out against Wigan.
 
DevilRed said:
I worry about his mileage. He is no spring chicken but for the last few seasons he has played almost every single match. Surely fletcher will get a run out against Wigan.
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You're taking it a bit too far. He wasn't even a regular for a while at the start of last season. but for the past 12 months, he's been almost ever present.
 
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