Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?

No he wouldn't do as well because he isn't as good.

Most of our players wouldn't look 'out of place' in any team. That's a given since we've been one of the two most successful clubs in football over the last two decades.
 
While Carrick once again completed a high percentage of passes (not as high as Scholes) vs Blackburn, his three "mistakes" almost cost us three goals. His "tackle" against Sunderland could have cost us too.

A steady performer but were it not for Scholes' return he/we would not be challenging for the title. Good, but not sorry to say, not good enough!
 
Grunge said:
While Carrick once again completed a high percentage of passes (not as high as Scholes) vs Blackburn, his three "mistakes" almost cost us three goals. His "tackle" against Sunderland could have cost us too.

A steady performer but were it not for Scholes' return he/we would not be challenging for the title. Good, but not sorry to say, not good enough!
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Carrick's return to form came prior to scholes' return. I've been one of his critics but you can't deny that he has improved immensely. He's even making darting runs into box which he never did!!
 
Grunge said:
While Carrick once again completed a high percentage of passes (not as high as Scholes) vs Blackburn, his three "mistakes" almost cost us three goals. His "tackle" against Sunderland could have cost us too.

A steady performer but were it not for Scholes' return he/we would not be challenging for the title. Good, but not sorry to say, not good enough!
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I think you mean Fulham? :confused: But in the main I agree. I'm not one of those supporters who seems to relish in the prospect of Carrick failing but when you compare him to the likes of Busquets as some have in this thread there simply is no contest. Carrick could not get into the Spanish U21 starting XI nevermind the senior side. I still don't feel as if Carrick has ever reached the heights he could've when he signed for Man Utd. There have been moments...but he's been good, very good at times, rather than great. I respect what he does and he serves an important function in the team but the idea that he's the only player out there capable of doing so or is best in the class at it is mistaken.
 
I thought it would have taken this season for all the last doubters to admit that Carrick is a very good player and one of the most important players at United."Not to sorry to say, not good enough" :wenger:
 
I really don't understand this thing with the spanish players. They are excellent no doubt but they're not on some completely different level to all our players. For example carrick and alonso are similar ages and when they were both in England I don't think either was really any better than the other. I definitely don't remember thinking I wish we had alonso over carrick. I remember thinking I wish we got him as well but not instead. Now I think alonso is ahead of carrick but I don't think it's a massive difference. No doubt alonso is more consistent which I'd something that carrick has struggled with, but both at their best then there's not much in it for me. For me carrick could come in for alonso for Spain and you wouldn't really notice any real difference. Also you have to remember that having xavi and iniesta alongside you will immensely help any midfielder because they're always available for a pass and both can completely dictate a game. To succeed with them you obviously need talent but they make the job a lot easier.
 
Grunge said:
While Carrick once again completed a high percentage of passes (not as high as Scholes) vs Blackburn, his three "mistakes" almost cost us three goals. His "tackle" against Sunderland could have cost us too.

A steady performer but were it not for Scholes' return he/we would not be challenging for the title. Good, but not sorry to say, not good enough!
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Unmitigated nonsense.
 
Grunge said:
While Carrick once again completed a high percentage of passes (not as high as Scholes) vs Blackburn, his three "mistakes" almost cost us three goals. His "tackle" against Sunderland could have cost us too.

A steady performer but were it not for Scholes' return he/we would not be challenging for the title. Good, but not sorry to say, not good enough!
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totally disagree

carrick hasn't had a period of bad form all season

he's been consistently a 7 or 8 all year (with a few 9's as well)

in fact this season has been every bit as good as his first one for United
 
Without taking anything away from him I wish he would do more with the ball at feet like he did against QPR when he skinned Barton.

I do think our game would improve a lot of he was less of a 'pass go-to' type midfielder. He has the composure and the physical ability.
 
ghaliboy said:
Without taking anything away from him I wish he would do more with the ball at feet like he did against QPR when he skinned Barton.

I do think our game would improve a lot of he was less of a 'pass go-to' type midfielder. He has the composure and the physical ability.
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Problem is that he's rarely had opportunity. Some of it is his own fault in the sense that he hasn't always stepped up enough, but in for most his time here he's either been partnered by young midfielders learning the ropes like ando, or he's having to do the leg work of a scholes which means he can't push on as much because he has to be the defensive player. The only time he's had a midfield partner who could cover for him is with fletcher and unfortunately when fletcher was at his best carrick was still in his shell a bit. It's a shame as I still think those two, especially with carrick as he has been this season, where he has pushed on more, could be a really effective combo.
 
Ash_G said:
I really don't understand this thing with the spanish players. They are excellent no doubt but they're not on some completely different level to all our players. For example carrick and alonso are similar ages and when they were both in England I don't think either was really any better than the other. I definitely don't remember thinking I wish we had alonso over carrick. I remember thinking I wish we got him as well but not instead. Now I think alonso is ahead of carrick but I don't think it's a massive difference. No doubt alonso is more consistent which I'd something that carrick has struggled with, but both at their best then there's not much in it for me. For me carrick could come in for alonso for Spain and you wouldn't really notice any real difference. Also you have to remember that having xavi and iniesta alongside you will immensely help any midfielder because they're always available for a pass and both can completely dictate a game. To succeed with them you obviously need talent but they make the job a lot easier.
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I'd have to disagree with that there. Looking at the Spanish players, I'd have to say that the majority of them are a level above what we have in the Premier League. Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas and Alonso are all above what we have here in my opinion. I'm not counting Busquets because he's more of a defensive midfielder.

Alonso was a very underrated player at Liverpool in my opinion. The fact they wanted Barry to play ahead of him really shows how much they underrated him to be honest. His true impact there was only felt when he left the club. While people spent most of the 2007-2009 period praising Gerrard and Torres to the heavens, they almost completely forgot about the man who provided Gerrard to provide for Torres, the man who dictated the play for them. That was Alonso.

Anyway, to answer your question, I think there's one noticeable difference between their players and a player like Carrick. There are games when it won't look like their is too much of a difference, but we see it when teams play a high pressure game against us. Carrick is suddenly nullified in the middle and can't play his usual game, because of the lack of time he gets on the ball.

What's the difference with the Spaniards? They thrive under high pressure. Instead of losing the ball a lot and struggling, they use it to full effect by exploiting the spaces at the back that are left by high pressure opposition. That's why teams don't dare play a high pressure game against Barca, while those who do often find themselves being ripped apart.
 
cheesy said:
I'd have to disagree with that there. Looking at the Spanish players, I'd have to say that the majority of them are a level above what we have in the Premier League. Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas and Alonso are all above what we have here in my opinion. I'm not counting Busquets because he's more of a defensive midfielder.

Alonso was a very underrated player at Liverpool in my opinion. The fact they wanted Barry to play ahead of him really shows how much they underrated him to be honest. His true impact there was only felt when he left the club. While people spent most of the 2007-2009 period praising Gerrard and Torres to the heavens, they almost completely forgot about the man who provided Gerrard to provide for Torres, the man who dictated the play for them. That was Alonso.

Anyway, to answer your question, I think there's one noticeable difference between their players and a player like Carrick. There are games when it won't look like their is too much of a difference, but we see it when teams play a high pressure game against us. Carrick is suddenly nullified in the middle and can't play his usual game, because of the lack of time he gets on the ball.

What's the difference with the Spaniards? They thrive under high pressure. Instead of losing the ball a lot and struggling, they use it to full effect by exploiting the spaces at the back that are left by high pressure opposition. That's why teams don't dare play a high pressure game against Barca, while those who do often find themselves being ripped apart.
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Good post, and I mostly agree. Except the Busquets part, he's much more than just a DM, probably one of the most complete midfielders around. Outstanding player.
 
Bape said:
Good post, and I mostly agree. Except the Busquets part, he's much more than just a DM, probably one of the most complete midfielders around. Outstanding player.
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I would say that he's more of a defensive midfielder, however what makes him so good at that is the fact that he offers a lot more than what the standard holding midfielder does.

A lot of them are simply there to break up the play and act like battering rams. Busquets isn't as one dimensional as that though and can offer a lot more. He is good on the ball and is a very composed passer of it. He's the perfect example of a more modern defensive midfielder that will probably start to come into football more and more as teams go for the technical passing game.
 
cheesy said:
I'd have to disagree with that there. Looking at the Spanish players, I'd have to say that the majority of them are a level above what we have in the Premier League. Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas and Alonso are all above what we have here in my opinion. I'm not counting Busquets because he's more of a defensive midfielder.

Alonso was a very underrated player at Liverpool in my opinion. The fact they wanted Barry to play ahead of him really shows how much they underrated him to be honest. His true impact there was only felt when he left the club. While people spent most of the 2007-2009 period praising Gerrard and Torres to the heavens, they almost completely forgot about the man who provided Gerrard to provide for Torres, the man who dictated the play for them. That was Alonso.

Anyway, to answer your question, I think there's one noticeable difference between their players and a player like Carrick. There are games when it won't look like their is too much of a difference, but we see it when teams play a high pressure game against us. Carrick is suddenly nullified in the middle and can't play his usual game, because of the lack of time he gets on the ball.

What's the difference with the Spaniards? They thrive under high pressure. Instead of losing the ball a lot and struggling, they use it to full effect by exploiting the spaces at the back that are left by high pressure opposition. That's why teams don't dare play a high pressure game against Barca, while those who do often find themselves being ripped apart.
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Those are fair points but if you consider fabregas for a second no doubt he was a top player but he and his arsenal team were fairly easily nullified in a number of games by the likes of carrick and fletcher. Put him in the barca or Spanish team and he becomes a lot more untouchable. If you swapped busquets and carrick and busquets was here and carrick in the barca teams I think people would say carrick is better. That's what I'm saying, between busquets carrick and alonso I don't think there's much significant difference. Alonso is the best out all three for me but I don't think he's that much better and I think when you're as good as those three are, partnering any of them with xavi and iniesta will make that midfield strong and will make whoever that deep midfielder is look quality because es surrounded by two of the best midfielders in history. It doesn't take anything from busquets or alonso as they still do a very important job but I don't think either is considerably better than carrick and as I said I think he could comfortably slot in.
 
I was looking through the gif thread and thought I'd post this one, Carrick doing his impression of Giggs's famous FA Cup goal against Arsenal.

carrickz026z.gif
 
Ash_G said:
Those are fair points but if you consider fabregas for a second no doubt he was a top player but he and his arsenal team were fairly easily nullified in a number of games by the likes of carrick and fletcher. Put him in the barca or Spanish team and he becomes a lot more untouchable. If you swapped busquets and carrick and busquets was here and carrick in the barca teams I think people would say carrick is better. That's what I'm saying, between busquets carrick and alonso I don't think there's much significant difference. Alonso is the best out all three for me but I don't think he's that much better and I think when you're as good as those three are, partnering any of them with xavi and iniesta will make that midfield strong and will make whoever that deep midfielder is look quality because es surrounded by two of the best midfielders in history. It doesn't take anything from busquets or alonso as they still do a very important job but I don't think either is considerably better than carrick and as I said I think he could comfortably slot in.
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The thing with Fabregas in the Arsenal midfield was that he sometimes found himself surrounded by some average players. It wasn't always the case, but it sometimes was. It should also be noted that he's still at a relatively young age. He has been playing with better players at Barca, but he's also been naturally getting better himself as well.

I don't agree that things would remain the same at Barca if you swapped Busquets with Carrick. I firmly believe that the job Busquets does at Barcelona is underrated. He's more crucial to their team than some think. When you put another holding midfielder in there instead of him, you can see a massive difference. He's a modern day defensive midfielder, and he's quite unique in a way. Most of them are just there to break up the play and put in challenges, but he's not as one dimensional as that. He's very good on the ball as well, which is why he suits Barcelona's team and he's the perfect holding midfielder for them. Carrick could probably do a decent job at replacing him, but I reckon you'd soon see some differences.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Not good enough? fecking hell. He's been carrying us most of the season!
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This is where I feel there's a little bit of exaggerration about him. He's been one of our best players this season and has no doubt had a great season, but he hasn't been carrying us at all. He's been playing very well in a lot of games, but Scholes has been every bit as good as him since his comeback and we managed to cope without him at the start of the season. He's been a key player for us, but to carry a team contending for the title, you have to be having the sort of season Ronaldo did in 2007/2008 in your respective position. That can't be said for Carrick.
 
cheesy said:
The thing with Fabregas in the Arsenal midfield was that he sometimes found himself surrounded by some average players. It wasn't always the case, but it sometimes was. It should also be noted that he's still at a relatively young age. He has been playing with better players at Barca, but he's also been naturally getting better himself as well.

I don't agree that things would remain the same at Barca if you swapped Busquets with Carrick. I firmly believe that the job Busquets does at Barcelona is underrated. He's more crucial to their team than some think. When you put another holding midfielder in there instead of him, you can see a massive difference. He's a modern day defensive midfielder, and he's quite unique in a way. Most of them are just there to break up the play and put in challenges, but he's not as one dimensional as that. He's very good on the ball as well, which is why he suits Barcelona's team and he's the perfect holding midfielder for them. Carrick could probably do a decent job at replacing him, but I reckon you'd soon see some differences.
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I'm not saying anyone could slot in but specifically out of alonso carrick and busquets all of them ate defensive midfielders, excellent readers of the game and all comfortable on the ball. We've seen carrick slot in the back and we've seen busquets. All 3 are comfortable on the ball. Ball to feet I would say busquets is better but passing wise I think carrick is better, that said there may be games where busquets has produced more passing wise, I don't watch loads of barca but I'm just going on what I've judged so far. As I said I don't think we could swap carrick and busquets and we would be stronger or barca weaker. I don't think the difference would be significant at all. I expect busquets to become a better player as unfortunately whilst carrick has always been decent he's spent a lot of time playin within himself. But in terms of ability or on top form I think the difference between himself alonso and busquets is not significant at all.
 
Ash_G said:
Problem is that he's rarely had opportunity. Some of it is his own fault in the sense that he hasn't always stepped up enough, but in for most his time here he's either been partnered by young midfielders learning the ropes like ando, or he's having to do the leg work of a scholes which means he can't push on as much because he has to be the defensive player. The only time he's had a midfield partner who could cover for him is with fletcher and unfortunately when fletcher was at his best carrick was still in his shell a bit. It's a shame as I still think those two, especially with carrick as he has been this season, where he has pushed on more, could be a really effective combo.
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I think 08/09 they were often very effective together. People imo underrate and seem to forget that season.

Ash_G said:
I'm not saying anyone could slot in but specifically out of alonso carrick and busquets all of them ate defensive midfielders, excellent readers of the game and all comfortable on the ball. We've seen carrick slot in the back and we've seen busquets. All 3 are comfortable on the ball. Ball to feet I would say busquets is better but passing wise I think carrick is better, that said there may be games where busquets has produced more passing wise, I don't watch loads of barca but I'm just going on what I've judged so far. As I said I don't think we could swap carrick and busquets and we would be stronger or barca weaker. I don't think the difference would be significant at all. I expect busquets to become a better player as unfortunately whilst carrick has always been decent he's spent a lot of time playin within himself. But in terms of ability or on top form I think the difference between himself alonso and busquets is not significant at all.
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Agreed.
 
Fiskey said:
I think 08/09 they were often very effective together. People imo underrate and seem to forget that season.



Agreed.
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Definitely, I was always a fan of him and Fletch. Even when they weren't spectacular they were as solid as you could want. With a bit more time I think they could have been, and may still be great. It's a shame that things have gone the way they have this season in terms of injuries. If we could have had a midfield of Valencia, Fletcher, Carrick and Nani, Rooney and Welbeck up top for most the season, and a bit more luck at the back with injuries I think the perception of our team would be very different. That there for me is an extremely complimentary and balances team. Hopefully next season they'll get to show that.
 
We mostly play with 2 strikers and 2 attacking wingers. Carrick is vital to protecting the back 4.

Not many players out there could do what Carrick does in the English league at such a high level, for so many years, in so many big games.

Players like Lampard and Gerrard get the headlines but Carrick's positional discipline is excellent.

But having positionally discipline isn't sexy as scoring goals or last ditch tackles or running around the pitch frantically.
 
He really should be more greedy when he gets the ball outside the box because he has a fantastic right foot.
 
Good performance from him today. He was outshone by Scholes, however he still played well nevertheless.
 
He should be more expansive with his passing, considering how good a passer he is. Scholes was significantly more direct today and it just speeds our whole play up. Carrick has the ability to do the same so no reason why he shouldn't.
 
he's been simply fantastic thee past 12 games. Rio, Evans Rooney and he have been the foundations upon which this run has been based upon.

2nd, only just, to Rooney as our POTY this season.
 
Excellent game today from him, too bad that shot didn't go in.
 
sammsky1 said:
he's been simply fantastic thee past 12 games. Rio, Evans Rooney and he have been the foundations upon which this run has been based upon.

2nd, only just, to Rooney as our POTY this season.
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He's been excellent since his first game of the season, it's just taken longer for some to see it and the media to cotton on. Some people still think he offers nothing too.
 
RonaldoVII said:
He's been excellent since his first game of the season, it's just taken longer for some to see it and the media to cotton on. Some people still think he offers nothing too.
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That last part is very true. I know lots of people who still don't rate him and their reasoning is very bizarre as well. Some say he doesn't do anything, while I've got a friend who 'just doesn't like him'.
 
He's been fantastic this season (well, the latter half of it), one of our most important players.

He's not getting the credit he should be getting though, he's seriously underrated.
 
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