Afghanistan

Imran Khan link -> https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/...-womens-clothes-sexual-violence-b1869777.html

He also said feminism degrades the role of the mother etc.

I'm in no way saying that Imran Khan is the only bigoted person in the world. I've heard worse from Indian, American politicians and judges. Wearing hijab/covering clothes isn't the only problematic thing forced on the Afghan women. I have a big problem with lynching associated with cow slaughter in India. I will forcefully contest it in this forum or any other forum. I won't say 'well BJP has the majority and it's their laws'. And then subtly question the motivation of the posters on the thread on why their sudden interest on Afghan women.

I'm even more surprised and disappointed that a poster, a moderator on this forum, who has been engaging till date has posted what Sultan has posted in this thread. Maybe I'm reading a small portion of his posts and making a big deal out of it, but say if this was posted by Nikhil, I'm sure there would be loud reactions. This will be my last post on this thread. This makes me sad.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Imran Khan link -> https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/...-womens-clothes-sexual-violence-b1869777.html

He also said feminism degrades the role of the mother etc.

I'm in no way saying that Imran Khan is the only bigoted person in the world. I've heard worse from Indian, American politicians and judges. Wearing hijab/covering clothes isn't the only problematic thing forced on the Afghan women. I have a big problem with lynching associated with cow slaughter in India. I will forcefully contest it in this forum or any other forum. I won't say 'well BJP has the majority and it's their laws'. And then subtly question the motivation of the posters on the thread on why their sudden interest on Afghan women.

I'm even more surprised and disappointed that a poster, a moderator on this forum, who has been engaging till date has posted what Sultan has posted in this thread. Maybe I'm reading a small portion of his posts and making a big deal out of it, but say if this was posted by Nikhil, I'm sure there would be loud reactions. This will be my last post on this thread. This makes me sad.
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I've not read the article. Watching the game.

Sorry but you really don't know if the Afghan women are being forced to wear the veil. That's a massive generalisation. What other horrible things are forced on the women which the Taliban has imposed in a few weeks?

I work with these women who won't even allow me to take out a mobile phone from my pocket just in case I take a picture. I hope your sympathy is genuine because I hardly saw you in this thread worrying about their plight over the last 20 years. All of a sudden the Taliban takes charge and here you are sympathetic to their plight.

PS: Because we have differences of opinions you equate me to that bigot and a racist Nikhil? Have I once been rude, called you by any demeaning name or criticised you personally? If you have a problem with my posts and me being a moderator I suggest you ask other mods and Niall to check out my opinions.
 
@fishfingers15

You've really taken out what Imran Khan has said completely out of context to prove a point. He's basically saying in primitive societies where men are not exposed to women wearing few clothes are bound to have urges because they are not robots. He did not condone any violence against women for the way they dressed. He even told the interviewer that it would matter less where men are used to women (Western nations/US) being scantily dressed.
 
Sultan said:
@fishfingers15

You've really taken out what Imran Khan has said completely out of context to prove a point. He's basically saying in primitive societies where men are not exposed to women wearing few clothes are bound to have urges because they are not robots. He did not condone any violence against women for the way they dressed. He even told the interviewer that it would matter less where men are used to women (Western nations/US) being scantily dressed.
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What's the point of mentioning "men are not robots" if not for trying to defend their actions just a tiny little bit?
 
VorZakone said:
What's the point of mentioning "men are not robots" if not for trying to defend their actions just a tiny little bit?
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What actions?

At no point did he condone or even hint at any violence on women. He was referring to his country Pakistan where men are not used to scantily clad women when he said: "men are not robots". Hand on heart how many men would lower their glaze or not give a second glance when a nice scantily dressed lady walks past?

Anyway, that was my understanding. If people want to make an issue out of his every word then I concede.
 
Probably, it's time to take a break from the CE. Does nobody see a problem with Sultan's stance in these final few pages? I'm frankly offended and amazed in equal measure.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Probably, it's time to take a break from the CE. Does nobody see a problem with Sultan's stance in these final few pages? I'm frankly offended and amazed in equal measure.
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i think about 10 people (including me) have seen a problem with it and replied.
 
Zlatattack said:
Pakistan has a VERY strange relationship with transgenders. Pakistan recognises a third gender formally, Pakistani people on the whole are very tolerant of transgenders, but only because they think they'll be cursed by God for being mean to them. It's based in superstition. Transgenders drove to our family home after my wedding and demanded gifts to give their blessings. I considered this extortion but was told to STFU and my parents gave them clothes, cash and perfume. They then had some tea and went on their way. craziest thing i've ever seen, waking up to see a bunch of transgender people singing in the courtyard of our family home.

At the same time, they don't get educational or economic opportunities, are then forced into entertainment and the sex industry and are often sexually exploited by scumbags. The state has passed an act to try and do some positive discrimination to get them jobs etc. A lot of them are tax collectors now (also because of the fear of the curse) and we've even got a couple of transgender media personalities.
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@Sultan I appreciate you don't want to get involved in the long discussion that we started on the last page, so we can move past it. I'd be really keen to hear your views here. Given @Zlatattack has a more direct experience with transgender treatment in Pakistan, do you think it's fair to say that the original description of LGBT populations thriving - at least in Pakistan - was not a fair representation of the reality? I don't think anyone can read his post and think that's a good situation for transgender people to be in.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Probably, it's time to take a break from the CE. Does nobody see a problem with Sultan's stance in these final few pages? I'm frankly offended and amazed in equal measure.
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Yes, that’s why I was trying to engage last night. I was the only one debating for a while though.

I’ve appreciated your posts.
 
In this way people can understand that blacks have a different role than whites. They cannot sit at our table, and better if they go down the street covered, so as not to scare white children.
It is not lack of equality, it is simply their place, but they are vital to our society.
It is simply a role, but they are very important ! , in some places they are the ones who really rule, do not get carried away by appearances.
Have you seen them complain?. I think the negritos are very happy, do not be so obtuse to see things from your standards
 
Sultan said:
What actions?

At no point did he condone or even hint at any violence on women. He was referring to his country Pakistan where men are not used to scantily clad women when he said: "men are not robots". Hand on heart how many men would lower their glaze or not give a second glance when a nice scantily dressed lady walks past?

Anyway, that was my understanding. If people want to make an issue out of his every word then I concede.
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I think having a "glance" at attractive scantily clad women is pretty far removed from what the interview was about.
 
Gehrman said:
I think having a "glance" at attractive scantily clad women is pretty far removed from what the interview was about.
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Let me know from your perspective. Which of his words or actions intimated anything else?

Maybe I got this wrong?
 
Sultan said:
Let me know from your perspective. Which of his words or actions intimated anything else?

Maybe I got this wrong?
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They were spefically talking about sexual violence and a rape epidemic in Pakistan.
 
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Brwned said:
@Sultan I appreciate you don't want to get involved in the long discussion that we started on the last page, so we can move past it. I'd be really keen to hear your views here. Given @Zlatattack has a more direct experience with transgender treatment in Pakistan, do you think it's fair to say that the original description of LGBT populations thriving - at least in Pakistan - was not a fair representation of the reality? I don't think anyone can read his post and think that's a good situation for transgender people to be in.
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I have been to a number of functions where LGBT/transgender groups openly dance in streets, weddings and other functions both in Pakistan and India and I see them happy and "thriving". The LGBT community I have encountered are quite aggressive in their demands and will bully you in giving them gifts and money at functions. They have even bullied me into paying them on the streets in Gujarat.

They hold sway and if you do not entertain their demands they will try to spoil your day. Generally, people accept them without any issues unless their demands get too big. I must stress I am a visitor to those countries so I cannot say with any certainty what the situation is behind the scenes. I have also seen a Madressa open for the LGBT community in Pakistan's capital (probably a first in the world) and there are no official restrictions on them going to mosques. They are officially recognised as a third gender.

I have no idea of their living conditions or how they are treated beyond these functions. I am basing my opinions on personal experiences. This thread is about Afghanistan, and I can say without a doubt the Taliban will not be this lenient on the LGBT community.
 
Gehrman said:
They were spefically talking about sexual violence and a rape epidemic in Pakistan.
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Yes, having listened to the video again he does say "it will have an impact". He should have really said it matters not if the women are scantily dressed or naked: under no circumstances do men have a right to use sexual violence.

Imran Khan should rightly be criticised.
 
@Gehrman

I have read South Africa has a massive issue with violence against women. Pakistan having an issue is something I have never read previously. Maybe our Pakistani posters can shed a light on this?
 
Sultan said:
Yes, having listened to the video again he does say "it will have an impact". He should have really said it matters not if the women are scantily dressed or naked: under no circumstances do men have a right to use sexual violence.

Imran Khan should rightly be criticised.
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Pretty much yeah.
 
Sultan said:
I have been to a number of functions where LGBT/transgender groups openly dance in streets, weddings and other functions both in Pakistan and India and I see them happy and "thriving". The LGBT community I have encountered are quite aggressive in their demands and will bully you in giving them gifts and money at functions. They have even bullied me into paying them on the streets in Gujarat.

They hold sway and if you do not entertain their demands they will try to spoil your day. Generally, people accept them without any issues unless their demands get too big. I must stress I am a visitor to those countries so I cannot say with any certainty what the situation is behind the scenes. I have also seen a Madressa open for the LGBT community in Pakistan's capital (probably a first in the world) and there are no official restrictions on them going to mosques. They are officially recognised as a third gender.

I have no idea of their living conditions or how they are treated beyond these functions. I am basing my opinions on personal experiences. This thread is about Afghanistan, and I can say without a doubt the Taliban will not be this lenient on the LGBT community.
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I think we can all agree on that last point: the Taliban are less tolerant of LGBT communities. But that is a very low bar. Your original comparison point was not to the Taliban but to Western societies, that’s what @Agent Red asked you aboit. When you have people like @fishfingers15 living in India or @Zlatattack talking with rich experiences from Pakistan, I think it’s important to re-evaluate whether your anecdotal evidence is representative of the wider reality.

Your original comments were a sweeping analysis of the state of LGBT communities in the entire subcontinent, with no caveats that your personal experiences might not be a good barometer of how life is for the people you’re talking about. It created a very misleading impression in at least two ways. Especially when it was used as a general point to argue against oppression of minorities being a common theme. At that point the truth is being stretched to further an agenda. Which you’ve criticised the very same posters for doing.
 
Brwned said:
I think we can all agree on that last point: the Taliban are less tolerant of LGBT communities. But that is a very low bar. Your original comparison point was not to the Taliban but to Western societies, that’s what @Agent Red asked you aboit. When you have people like @fishfingers15 living in India or @Zlatattack talking with rich experiences from Pakistan, I think it’s important to re-evaluate whether your anecdotal evidence is representative of the wider reality.

Your original comments were a sweeping analysis of the state of LGBT communities in the entire subcontinent, with no caveats that your personal experiences might not be a good barometer of how life is for the people you’re talking about. It created a very misleading impression in at least two ways. Especially when it was used as a general point to argue against oppression of minorities being a common theme. At that point the truth is being stretched to further an agenda. Which you’ve criticised the very same posters for doing.
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My original post.

"LGBT have been in the open and thriving much more in parts of Pakistan, Bangladesh, and particularly India than here in the UK. It is only over the last few years there has been a focus on LGBT over here in the UK. I admit there would be your typical religious groups who would be against these people which is no different to any other country."

I am still not sure on what ground a few posters got offended by that post. My personal experiences of LGBT have in most cases been better abroad than in the UK. We have gay bars where I live in the UK and is a constant source of trouble from bigots. I hear all sorts of remarks on the terraces at games. So the experiences I have encountered is what I wrote. I would have thought it was quite obvious this would not be the case in the religious belts (which I wrote) where there is no question of LGBT getting any sort of freedom or be open of their sexual orientation.

Yes, I concede it might not be representative of the wider communities in those countries.
 
Sultan said:
My original post.

"LGBT have been in the open and thriving much more in parts of Pakistan, Bangladesh, and particularly India than here in the UK. It is only over the last few years there has been a focus on LGBT over here in the UK. I admit there would be your typical religious groups who would be against these people which is no different to any other country."

I am still not sure on what ground a few posters got offended by that post. My personal experiences of LGBT have in most cases been better abroad than in the UK. We have gay bars where I live in the UK and is a constant source of trouble from bigots. I hear all sorts of remarks on the terraces at games. So the experiences I have encountered is what I wrote. I would have thought it was quite obvious this would not be the case in the religious belts (which I wrote) where there is no question of LGBT getting any sort of freedom or be open of their sexual orientation.

Yes, I concede it might not be representative of the wider communities in those countries.
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I don't think people are offended by it. It's more outrage than offence. People who live there are telling you, 100%, no LGBT rights in the subcontinent are not better than in the UK. They cite laws, economic and criminal statistics, investigative journalism, and much deeper personal experience. I don't know how you can read that and think that your view is anything other than unrepresentative and misleading.

I don't know how you can read what @Zlatattack wrote, which is a very nuanced, complicated portrait, and think "yes this is a good situation for a person to be in". He like you can point to some positive examples - celebrities, recent positive discrimination - but he also recognises the many other dark realities, that they're deprived of education and economic opportunities, that it often leads to them down a path of exploitation, and they're viewed by society as cursed.

When you only represent that small sliver of positivity, and ignore all the rest, that's called whitewashing. There's two reasons people do that. They see the full picture, the good and bad, but they only want to represent the good to further a particular agenda. Or they literally only see the good, they have a wall of active ignorance that prevents the bad from getting in. I don't know which one applies here but it leads to the same outcomes, in any case.

Claiming that LGBT communities are thriving implies that their situation is good, it doesn't need any significant changes to improve their quality of life. That is, unequivocally, wrong. It does not apply to the majority of people you're speaking on behalf of. And you don't have the right to speak on behalf of them when your experiences are limited to parties and begging. The fact you think that's a remotely good insight into what their lives are like, whether they're thriving or not, says a lot.

Yes there is lots of bigotry in the UK. There's a lot of work to be done. The fact you don't hear the bigotry in India isn't because it doesn't exist, it's just because you weren't listening in the right places. Just ask the people who live there, and who aren't trying to further an agenda.
 
Sultan said:
Is there an implication I have agenda against LGBT or trying to whitewash?
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No, it's a rejection of your assertions that the people you were conversing with have an agenda. It's something you mentioned frequently when asking why there's a sudden interest in women's rights, as if it's a vehicle simply to attack the Taliban or something broader than that, rather than a sincere representation of their views on the broader issue.

It's meant in the sense that, if you ask them about their views and they present a polar opposite experience, you should assume that it isn't because they have an agenda. It's because they have a different experience.

I don't think you're trying to whitewash. But your comments are whitewashing the experience of LGBT communities in the subcontinent, intentionally or otherwise.
 
It's worth noting the influence of restrictive norms against gays and lesbians common in Europe over the last century (obviously now receding) These previously colonised countries have retained criminal penalties for homosexual acts enacted under European colonial rule. IIRC, India has repealed the laws. However, most if not all Muslim countries still have these very laws in place.
 
Brwned said:
No, it's a rejection of your assertions that the people you were conversing with have an agenda. It's something you mentioned frequently when asking why there's a sudden interest in women's rights, as if it's a vehicle simply to attack the Taliban or something broader than that, rather than a sincere representation of their views on the broader issue.

It's meant in the sense that, if you ask them about their views and they present a polar opposite experience, you should assume that it isn't because they have an agenda. It's because they have a different experience.

I don't think you're trying to whitewash. But your comments are whitewashing the experience of LGBT communities in the subcontinent, intentionally or otherwise.
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I do think a few on here have an agenda. It's a clever and indirect way to attack religion. LGBT rights are one of the most popular forms attacking those of faith. People of faith inhabit vast geographic and cultural differences. This results in blanket condemnation issues relating to LGBT against Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Particularly mostly against Islam as it's still most likely to be anti LGBT in many countries.
 
Sultan said:
I do think a few on here have an agenda. It's a clever and indirect way to attack religion. LGBT rights are one of the most popular forms attacking those of faith. People of faith inhabit vast geographic and cultural differences. This results in blanket condemnation issues relating to LGBT against Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Particularly mostly against Islam as it's still most likely to be anti LGBT in many countries.
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We're talking explicitly and exclusively about LGBT rights in the sub-continent. You're the one making the inferences that it applies more broadly, and then as you get further into the conversation, it is you that explicitly applies it more broadly as a defence against Islam. That's when it becomes a straw man argument.

So let's bring it back to LGBT rights in the sub-continent. You are seriously saying that having listened to people's experiences in this thread, you believe your views are an accurate representation of the reality?
 
Sultan said:
I do think a few on here have an agenda. It's a clever and indirect way to attack religion. LGBT rights are one of the most popular forms attacking those of faith. People of faith inhabit vast geographic and cultural differences. This results in blanket condemnation issues relating to LGBT against Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Particularly mostly against Islam as it's still most likely to be anti LGBT in many countries.
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I don't think anything of that is objectively wrong to be honest. Religious conservatism has been and is one the main reasons why LBGT rights have been and are supressed around the world. That and Machismo culture. I don't know about blanket condemnation, you can always attack the most problematic dogmas of a faith whilst appreciating that there is good things in it as well.
 
Sultan said:
I do think a few on here have an agenda. It's a clever and indirect way to attack religion. LGBT rights are one of the most popular forms attacking those of faith. People of faith inhabit vast geographic and cultural differences. This results in blanket condemnation issues relating to LGBT against Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Particularly mostly against Islam as it's still most likely to be anti LGBT in many countries.
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As others have pointed out, you made a claim previously, which you have since doubled down on, that LGBT people are thriving in the sub-continent and even implied it is a better situation than in the UK. You made similar claims that women are not treated as second class citizens. On both points I and others have pointed to the evidence that goes against these claims but you largely haven't engaged with any of these points.

You're now falling back on alluding to people being 'offended' and accusing (presumably me) and others of having a secret anti-religion agenda. There is no denying that conservative religion limits the rights of women or LGBT people, but we haven't got into the rights/wrongs of that in this thread because there will be different views and I respect you probably think differently to me on some of issues. What you can't do is imply things are largely fine for these groups and whitewash the way their rights are restricted - that is simply false.
 
Yes, listening to those from Pakistan and India who are more in tune with what's going on in those countries I retract my word "thriving". In hindsight should have used the word "improve". Anyway, I thank @Brwned for the education.

Yes, a number of posters do have an agenda and its nothing to do with LGBT. Their agendas always surface in time.
 
Sultan said:
Yes, listening to those from Pakistan and India who are more in tune with what's going on in those countries I retract my word "thriving". In hindsight should have used the word "improve". Anyway, I thank @Brwned for the education.

Yes, a number of posters do have an agenda and its nothing to do with LGBT. Their agendas always surface in time.
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In a thread that's largely going to be geared towards the Taliban, it's pretty inevitable that the kind of religious dogmas they practice is going to be discussed. Like why wouldn't they? Or why shouldn't they?
 
:lol: somehow only seeing this now

 
Gehrman said:
In a thread that's largely going to be geared towards the Taliban, it's pretty inevitable that the kind of religious dogmas they practice is going to be discussed. Like why wouldn't they? Or why shouldn't they?
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They should come straight out with those questions. We're all adults and it be can be discussed amicably. I've been answering questions for nearly 20 years on the forum.

Yes, there is opposition within certain elements of Islamic, Christian and Jewish groups against LGBT. If you're religiously inclined you can give your opinion freely without being ostracized. The most important point in all this is not to be prejudiced against anyone on the count of them being of a different faith, colour, creed, disability or sexual orientation.
 
Sultan said:
They should come straight out with those questions. We're all adults and it be can be discussed amicably. I've been answering questions for nearly 20 years on the forum.

Yes, there is opposition within certain elements of Islamic, Christian and Jewish groups against LGBT. If you're religiously inclined you can give your opinion freely without being ostracized. The most important point in all this is not to be prejudiced against anyone on the count of them being of a different faith, colour, creed, disability or sexual orientation.
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Okay let's come straight out with this questions.

Why are LGBT rights worse in the islamic world more or less than anywhere else in the world?

And why sre womens rights and equality worse in the islamic world than almost anywhere else?
 
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Gehrman said:
Okay let's come straight out with this questions.

Why are LGBT rights worse in the islamic world more or less than anywhere else in the world?

And why sre womens rights and equality worse in the islamic world than almost anywhere else?
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Interesting questions.

Transgender and women, Islamically speaking were given rights much quicker under Islam than pretty much anywhere. Yet we hear of and see treatment that basically goes against islamic teaching.
 
Roane said:
Interesting questions.

Transgender and women, Islamically speaking were given rights much quicker under Islam than pretty much anywhere. Yet we hear of and see treatment that basically goes against islamic teaching.
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I would love to see some solid documentation behind this.
 
Imran Khan being a bit dim…

 
Gehrman said:
I would love to see some solid documentation behind this.
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There is plenty out there. Women having rights if inheritance, owning property etc is well documented as something that Islam brought.

With regards to transgender there is also documentation and scholarly articles and fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) around transgender. All the way through to Ottoman times. I believe the word used was mukhanathun (sp).

Im Muslim and enjoy looking at things as they are supposed to be and how they are. There is often a difference based on culture.

Interestingly I'm currently looking at something that came to my attention regarding the welfare state and what it took from Islam and how the 12 person based jury system has its foundations in Islam and specifically Maliki fiqh. Again 2 things we see in the "west" but not so much in "Islamic countries". Which raises the question of why? For me anyway
 
Gehrman said:
Okay let's come straight out with this questions.

Why are LGBT rights worse in the islamic world more or less than anywhere else in the world?

And why sre womens rights and equality worse in the islamic world than almost anywhere else?
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:lol:

Islam forbids LGB, just as Christianity and Judaism. Muslims are mostly unwilling to change Islamic teachings which we believe came directly from God and his messengers.

The Muslims of India/Pakistan/Bangladesh whose population consists of about a third of the world Muslims mostly learnt their male chauvinism from the dominant Indian culture. So I point fingers at my fellow Indians (joking) please hide your lathis. ;)
 
Gehrman said:
I think having a "glance" at attractive scantily clad women is pretty far removed from what the interview was about.
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I'm not a fan of Khan the politician, was a big fan of Khan the cricketer.

I could be wrong here and I'm not offering this as an excuse or whatever but I wonder if Khan was using the argument that has been around for a while in some "Islamic" countries where the argument is basically that we have some places where say sex before marriage is forbidden as are things like dating and open signs of affection across genders yet we have certain movies and advertising (posters etc) where there are scantily clad people (men or women) which arouses desire?
 
Roane said:
There is plenty out there. Women having rights if inheritance, owning property etc is well documented as something that Islam brought.

With regards to transgender there is also documentation and scholarly articles and fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) around transgender. All the way through to Ottoman times. I believe the word used was mukhanathun (sp).

Im Muslim and enjoy looking at things as they are supposed to be and how they are. There is often a difference based on culture.

Interestingly I'm currently looking at something that came to my attention regarding the welfare state and what it took from Islam and how the 12 person based jury system has its foundations in Islam and specifically Maliki fiqh. Again 2 things we see in the "west" but not so much in "Islamic countries". Which raises the question of why? For me anyway
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We have lost our way, bro. That's a simple fact.
 
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