Afghanistan

[Brwned]

Yes, the analogy was definitely clumsy and wrong. The guys taking over the country are not your typical University educated politicians who will choose words carefully. These are men educated in local villages and religious institutions. The language will be based on their religious upbringing and not much in the way of education as we know this in the West.

Afghanistan and other similar cultures do not consider women to be second class citizens. They consider women to have different roles. Why would they consider their mothers, daughters, grandmothers as anything but their equals or even better?

The culture is based on protecting girls from sexual predators and relationships before marriage. Similar to how women were born in the early 19th century here in the UK and Europe. They also had a role that was considered to marry young, stay home and raise a family.

Yes I would say that women in the UK in the 19th century were treated as second class citizens, on the whole. I’d say that’s the consensus view in the UK now too. Wouldn’t you?

There are some obvious exceptions to that rule but one of the defining parts of Western identity at that point was the notion of democracy, and they were excluded from that democracy, they were not considered equal. Likewise with education and many other pillars of society at that point.

Whether that was right or wrong in that time or culture depends on your take on moral relativism. Totally different discussion. This is about labelling how they were treated, not deciding whether that was morally appropriate.

 

[Agent Red]

It's not correct to generalise about the status and experience of women in such countries. A lot of different considerations should be taken into consideration. I work as an NGO in such places and cultures. Many women due to their wealth, education, status and achievements are often more powerful than men and head their families, although this is not the norm. Yes, the women live by different rules, however, the life of ordinary men compared to their womenfolk in such countries is no better when they have no work. Basically, the person who earns is likely to be the most respected. That's how it works, unfortunately.

But women are often forbidden from working, either at all or in certain positions/industries. Equally in many interpretations of Sharia law the word of a woman is not equal to that of a man such that it is virtually impossible to secure convictions for certain crimes.

Women clearly have less freedoms and rights relative to men and even under the pretence this is to “protect” them, they have no say in that and are instead exposed to whole new risks like lack of treatment for health issues or sexual violence/physical abuse in the home.

I don’t see how it can be claimed they have things as equal or “even better”. This is a bit like when you said women and LGBT people were thriving in the majority of Muslim countries a few weeks ago and I have no idea what that was based on.

 

[Rektsanwalt]

Yes I would say that women in the UK in the 19th century were treated as second class citizens, on the whole. I’d say that’s the consensus view in the UK now too. Wouldn’t you?

I have to admit, I find it absolutely hilarious to even debate about this. Obviously they were second class citizens in many regards and they were not just in the 19th century, but also in most western countries until pretty late 20th century! In switzerland, women couldn't vote until 1971! In germany, women needed permission from their husband to work until 1977, raping your wife wasn't punishable until 1997, opening your own bank account wasn't possible until 1958. And that's just some examples, you'll find many, many more aspects of institutionalized legal discrimination against women in every western country. Not even starting on social issues, which are deeply connected and rooted in the legal discrimination, as this is as blatant as well.

 

[Zlatattack]

Yes I would say that women in the UK in the 19th century were treated as second class citizens, on the whole. I’d say that’s the consensus view in the UK now too. Wouldn’t you?

There are some obvious exceptions to that rule but one of the defining parts of Western identity at that point was the notion of democracy, and they were excluded from that democracy, they were not considered equal. Likewise with education and many other pillars of society at that point.

Whether that was right or wrong in that time or culture depends on your take on moral relativism. Totally different discussion. This is about labelling how they were treated, not deciding whether that was morally appropriate.

That's the view in the UK, by the moral standards of UK culture.

You can't impose that on other people - they don't care for it.

 

[Rektsanwalt]

That's the view in the UK, by the moral standards of UK culture.

You can't impose that on other people - they don't care for it.

He's not talking about morals here, he's talking about women being 2nd class citizens in the 19th century in the UK. Categorizing someone as being 2nd class when it comes to a legal or social system really isn't about morals.

 

[crappycraperson]

Some of the recent posts in this thread are very disappointing. Yes, they are whitewashing the oppression has unleashed on women. It is not about "culture" or "moral values". This twitter trend: https://twitter.com/hashtag/AfghanWomen?src=hashtag_click shows the kind of attire or culture Afghan women associate with, not one imposed by Taliban.

Folks who shot Malala in Pakistan would have also thought they were doing it for "protection" of womenkind but intentions do not matter if the end result is oppression and stripping away of basic human rights of half the populace.

 

[crappycraperson]

It's not correct to generalise about the status and experience of women in such countries. A lot of different considerations should be taken into consideration. I work as an NGO in such places and cultures. Many women due to their wealth, education, status and achievements are often more powerful than men and head their families, although this is not the norm. Yes, the women live by different rules, however, the life of ordinary men compared to their womenfolk in such countries is no better when they have no work. Basically, the person who earns is likely to be the most respected. That's how it works, unfortunately.

Issue is always the choice. No one has a problem with women who willingly chose to wear Hijab, though it can be argued that choice of such dress for women is borne out of a patriarchal culture in place since centuries. Imposing any kind of extreme dress code, just for a single gender is oppression, no matter how much you may want to dress it up as different cultural practices.

 

[Zlatattack]

He's not talking about morals here, he's talking about women being 2nd class citizens in the 19th century in the UK. Categorizing someone as being 2nd class when it comes to a legal or social system really isn't about morals.

Each society evolves at it's own pace, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. Imposition has never worked and never will.

We tried 20 years of military intervention and it seems the next 20 years are going to be economic sanctions and diplomatic freezes.

 

[Brwned]

I have to admit, I find it absolutely hilarious to even debate about this. Obviously they were second class citizens in many regards and they were not just in the 19th century, but also in most western countries until pretty late 20th century! In switzerland, women couldn't vote until 1971! In germany, women needed permission from their husband to work until 1977, raping your wife wasn't punishable until 1997, opening your own bank account wasn't possible until 1958. And that's just some examples, you'll find many, many more aspects of institutionalized legal discrimination against women in every western country. Not even starting on social issues, which are deeply connected and rooted in the legal discrimination, as this is as blatant as well.

Honestly I’d be surprised if it even is a debate! I think it’s just miscommunication in this case. That said maybe I’m just ignorant on the subject? I’ve never really discussed it with anyone because it seemed like that was just accepted as a basic truth. Obviously there’s more division over third wave feminism and the like but that foundational idea just seemed widely accepted

That's the view in the UK, by the moral standards of UK culture.

You can't impose that on other people - they don't care for it.

I think if you re-read my final paragraph you’ll see where that’s covered. It’s explicitly not a moral judgment of whether that way of doing things was / is right or wrong. It isn’t a question of what they ought to do, but what they do, grounded in pretty simple evidence. The moral question is completely separate and not one that interests me in this kind of platform.

 

[Rektsanwalt]

Each society evolves at it's own pace, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. Imposition has never worked and never will.

We tried 20 years of military intervention and it seems the next 20 years are going to be economic sanctions and diplomatic freezes.

Sorry I don’t understand what that has to do with the posts before, maybe we’re talking about something completely different here? I merely tried to explain why categorizing someone as 2nd class citizens doesn’t have anything to do with morals.

 

[berbatrick]

Afghanistan and other similar cultures do not consider women to be second class citizens. They consider women to have different roles. Why would they consider their mothers, daughters, grandmothers as anything but their equals or even better?

If you consider someone has a different role, and you set things up to impose that different role, then obviously there is no equality.
If you like, you can argue that Talibani rules about women mean they think they're their betters. I will argue the opposite. For example, inheriting less than male children, carrying less/no weight as witnesses, not being allowed to move freely - all these to me show that they think of their "mothers, daughters, and grandmothers" as lesser people.

 

[Sultan]

The women's situation in Afghanistan is frequently ascribed to Islamic beliefs and practices. Lets' be honest here there are hundreds of millions of Muslim women who are not purdah clad and aren't forced to either. They were wearing similar clothing hundreds of years prior to the existence of the Taliban. Where has all this sudden sympathy come from for the plight of women?

Like @crappycraperson said above it's mostly patriarchal and cultural and religious. Most importantly let's not assess them according to Western standards. The generalising view of the oppression of women in Afghanistan tends to be sensationalised by the media and journalists searching for stories attempting to characterise Afghanistan and its religion as a stick. The US and its friends spent billions trying to change the country but without much success. There's not much that can be done at present.

 

[2cents]

I’m quite interested to learn more about the introduction of this garb into Afghanistan. I’ve never set foot inside the country but in all my reading on it and encounters with Afghans elsewhere it’s not something I’ve ever come across. Actually the only place I’ve ever encountered women dressed like this was in Aleppo in pre-war Syria, and then only very few. It seems a measure even beyond the burqa (obviously very common among Afghan women) and niqab (seen more among Arab Salafis).

 

[fishfingers15]

Yes, the analogy was definitely clumsy and wrong. The guys taking over the country are not your typical University educated politicians who will choose words carefully. These are men educated in local villages and religious institutions. The language will be based on their religious upbringing and not much in the way of education as we know this in the West.

Afghanistan and other similar cultures do not consider women to be second class citizens. They consider women to have different roles. Why would they consider their mothers, daughters, grandmothers as anything but their equals or even better?

The culture is based on protecting girls from sexual predators and relationships before marriage. Similar to how women were born in the early 19th century here in the UK and Europe. They also had a role that was considered to marry young, stay home and raise a family.

You could say this without pussyfooting around that it's antiquated and barbaric.

 

[fishfingers15]

That's the view in the UK, by the moral standards of UK culture.

You can't impose that on other people - they don't care for it.

What an abysmal reply. It's literally forced on all women by men wielding guns and you talk about not imposing on other people. What a travesty this is.

 

[Zlatattack]

I’m quite interested to learn more about the introduction of this garb into Afghanistan. I’ve never set foot inside the country but in all my reading on it and encounters with Afghans elsewhere it’s not something I’ve ever come across. Actually the only place I’ve ever encountered women dressed like this was in Aleppo in pre-war Syria, and then only very few. It seems a measure even beyond the burqa (obviously very common among Afghan women) and niqab (seen more among Arab Salafis).

Seems very wahhabi doesn't it. Not very Afghan at all.

 

[fishfingers15]

The women's situation in Afghanistan is frequently ascribed to Islamic beliefs and practices. Lets' be honest here there are hundreds of millions of Muslim women who are not purdah clad and aren't forced to either. They were wearing similar clothing hundreds of years prior to the existence of the Taliban. Where has all this sudden sympathy come from for the plight of women?

Like @crappycraperson said above it's mostly patriarchal and cultural and religious. Most importantly let's not assess them according to Western standards. The generalising view of the oppression of women in Afghanistan tends to be sensationalised by the media and journalists searching for stories attempting to characterise Afghanistan and its religion as a stick. The US and its friends spent billions trying to change the country but without much success. There's not much that can be done at present.

I would not be surprised if this is written by a hardcore yogi and modi wannabe, not yo trust the western press about the coverage of Indian women's issues but not from you sultan

 

[Sultan]

If you consider someone has a different role, and you set things up to impose that different role, then obviously there is no equality.
If you like, you can argue that Talibani rules about women mean they think they're their betters. I will argue the opposite. For example, inheriting less than male children, carrying less/no weight as witnesses, not being allowed to move freely - all these to me show that they think of their "mothers, daughters, and grandmothers" as lesser people.

I or we human beings have not imposed separate roles for genders. These differences are from God if you are religiously inclined or natural if you don't believe. However, being different does not mean inequality. Both genders have their vital roles in our system and are no lesser than the other. As for your other comments, obviously, they are religiously influenced. I do have answers to your questions from my perspective. However, most of us are entrenched in our beliefs so I hope you don't mind I just don't have the energy having discussed these matters for eternity on this forum.

 

[Zlatattack]

What an abysmal reply. It's literally forced on all women by men wielding guns and you talk about not imposing on other people. What a travesty this is.

Do you really think they could enforce something on the whole country if there wasn't a baseline acceptance of it?

It to force everyone to wear red in the UK, see how possible it is - even if you have the police and army enforcing it.

Taliban culture is pretty much wider Afghan culture, other than a small liberal minority. The Afghans dress the same way in Pakistan where nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.

 

[fishfingers15]

I or we human beings have not imposed separate roles for genders. These differences are from God if you are religiously inclined or natural if you don't believe. However, being different does not mean inequality. Both genders have their vital roles in our system and are no lesser than the other. As for your other comments, obviously, they are religiously influenced. I do have answers to your questions from my perspective. However, most of us are entrenched in our beliefs so I hope you don't mind I just don't have the energy having discussed these matters for eternity on this forum.

Im sorry but I'm not from an enlightened western society sultan. Im born and raised in a conservative Tamil Christian family. I can't believe you are taking a defeatist approach against the indefensible

 

[fishfingers15]

feck it, I just died a little

 

[Sultan]

I’m quite interested to learn more about the introduction of this garb into Afghanistan. I’ve never set foot inside the country but in all my reading on it and encounters with Afghans elsewhere it’s not something I’ve ever come across. Actually the only place I’ve ever encountered women dressed like this was in Aleppo in pre-war Syria, and then only very few. It seems a measure even beyond the burqa (obviously very common among Afghan women) and niqab (seen more among Arab Salafis).

This garb has obviously been introduced to the country by the many Arabs who came to the country during the Russian invasion.

 

[Agent Red]

I don't really know where to start with some of the posts above. There are so many demonstrable examples that have been mentioned of where women are treated as less or have their rights or freedoms restricted. They are not treated as equal and nor is it only happening in rare cases (as might be inferred from references 'sensationalist western reporting'). Generally in conservative religious societies women tend to get a worse deal, either through the law or cultural/societal enforcement or both.

There's been no acknowledgment of any of this and just general statements with no evidence saying women are treated the same or better and then going off on tangents about whether the West can do anything about it or not (we can't do much, except maybe via aid now, but that doesn't mean it isn't still happening or that there aren't women suffering).

Sure for some people this will be a recent 'cause' but that's what happens when something is given coverage and people become aware of it. Imagine one of the causes that you care about and just receiving the response of 'well that's how it's intended, there's nothing that can be done, why do you suddenly care so much anyway'.

 

[Sultan]

Im sorry but I'm not from an enlightened western society sultan. Im born and raised in a conservative Tamil Christian family. I can't believe you are taking a defeatist approach against the indefensible

I know you are from India I have been reading your posts for years and I assure you, are very enlightened. Being Christian has no relevance to the debate. I'm not sure what is indefensible? Me saying as different genders we are naturally different but no lesser in importance and partners and helpers to each other?

 

[fishfingers15]

Do you really think they could enforce something on the whole country if there wasn't a baseline acceptance of it?

It to force everyone to wear red in the UK, see how possible it is - even if you have the police and army enforcing it.

Taliban culture is pretty much wider Afghan culture, other than a small liberal minority. The Afghans dress the same way in Pakistan where nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.

It's not just about what you wear man, ffs. Oh my god

 

[2cents]

This garb has obviously been introduced to the country by the many Arabs who came to the country during the Russian invasion.

It’s really not that obvious to me, for the reasons I gave. If you can find me examples of Afghan women dressed like that anytime before this year I’d be very interested to see. Arab Salafi women generally seem to favor the niqab in the style below, leaving space for the eyes:

And of course the blue burka favored by many Afghan women has a gauze:

 

[fishfingers15]

I know you are from India I have been reading your posts for years and I assure you, are very enlightened. Being Christian has no relevance to the debate. I'm not sure what is indefensible? Me saying as different genders we are naturally different but no lesser in importance and partners and helpers to each other?

It's relevant because you keep blathering on about religious viewpoints. I too believe that a man was swallowed by a whale and came back alive. Southern tamil Christians are very conservative and that's how it is relevant. I have relatives who believe that women should be protected and cared for and are better suited to household works but are horrified about current state of Afghanistan. There's a difference in believing the ideal situation in how a woman should be in and banning them outright from anything and everything because of religious beliefs. It shouldn't be a debate on this sultan. You should be the voice of afgan woman and their right to dignity, not a parrot of dogmatic view of how creator made us all different. No one is asking the men to breastfeed the child here ffs

 

[Agent Red]

It's not just about what you wear man, ffs. Oh my god

I also don't think it's true that you can wear whatever you want. I haven't visited Pakistan but if I did I would know not to e.g. wear shorts or anything low cut as it would be considered immodest. It may not be illegal but that doesn't mean I wouldn't get some harrassment or other potential negative consequences if I did wear something 'taboo'.

 

[Raoul]

I’m quite interested to learn more about the introduction of this garb into Afghanistan. I’ve never set foot inside the country but in all my reading on it and encounters with Afghans elsewhere it’s not something I’ve ever come across. Actually the only place I’ve ever encountered women dressed like this was in Aleppo in pre-war Syria, and then only very few. It seems a measure even beyond the burqa (obviously very common among Afghan women) and niqab (seen more among Arab Salafis).

Never once saw this in my years in country. It was always Burqas in the early 2000s and Hijabs in the 2010s

 

[fishfingers15]

I also don't think it's true that you can wear whatever you want. I haven't visited Pakistan but if I did I would know not to e.g. wear shorts or anything low cut as it would be considered immodest. It may not be illegal but that doesn't mean I wouldn't get some harrassment or other potential negative consequences if I did wear something 'taboo'.

Hope you don't listen to imran Khan though, blames the rapes on the dresses women wear.

I agree with you though, this isn't about the plight of the women forced to wear burqa. Women are treated as lesser human beings and we are given explanations based on religious beliefs on why that is normal.

 

[Agent Red]

Hope you don't listen to imran Khan though, blames the rapes on the dresses women wear.

I agree with you though, this isn't about the plight of the women forced to wear burqa. Women are treated as lesser human beings and we are given explanations based on religious beliefs on why that is normal.

Well yeah, quite. In Afghanistan it's very likely that dress codes will be legally enforced but my point is that even where it isn't and people say 'there's no law, see, women can wear whatever they want!' it's obviously a farce because there are huge cultural/societal pressures and consequences such that there is real choice available to women.

Edit: also, thanks for your posts. It is nice to see a male poster (I presume) making these points too, especially as you say you are from a conservative religious background yourself.

 

[Sultan]

I don't really know where to start with some of the posts above. There are so many demonstrable examples that have been mentioned of where women are treated as less or have their rights or freedoms restricted. They are not treated as equal and nor is it only happening in rare cases (as might be inferred from references 'sensationalist western reporting'). Generally in conservative religious societies women tend to get a worse deal, either through the law or cultural/societal enforcement or both.

There's been no acknowledgment of any of this and just general statements with no evidence saying women are treated the same or better and then going off on tangents about whether the West can do anything about it or not (we can't do much, except maybe via aid now, but that doesn't mean it isn't still happening or that there aren't women suffering).

Sure for some people this will be a recent 'cause' but that's what happens when something is given coverage and people become aware of it. Imagine one of the causes that you care about and just receiving the response of 'well that's how it's intended, there's nothing that can be done, why do you suddenly care so much anyway'.

The suffering is so obvious you'd be deluded not to recognise or acknowledge the issue. Basically, it would be stating the obvious. Doesn't need to be said.

I personally know what is happening on the ground with these women and girls. I am involved with a small NGO. We run schools for mostly displaced Afghan kids and feed for over 1000 kids on a daily basis. These young kids are so desperate for food and education they walk 6/7miles every morning and go back home in scorching sun or snow in winter in mountainous areas. I personally spend time working at those schools. Unfortunately, the COVID situation has stopped us from going since 2019.

If you need to know anything further please PM.

 

[Sultan]

Hope you don't listen to imran Khan though, blames the rapes on the dresses women wear.

I agree with you though, this isn't about the plight of the women forced to wear burqa. Women are treated as lesser human beings and we are given explanations based on religious beliefs on why that is normal.

I would be interested to see any links Imran khan has said what you claim. I have definitely heard religiously inclined scholars say such things. I do know a number of Indian politicians have blamed girls for wearing "immodest" for being raped.

 

[Agent Red]

The suffering is so obvious you'd be deluded not to recognise or acknowledge the issue. Basically, it would be stating the obvious. Doesn't need to be said.

I personally know what is happening on the ground with these women and girls. I am involved with a small NGO. We run schools for mostly displaced Afghan kids and feed for over 1000 kids on a daily basis. These young kids are so desperate for food and education they walk 6/7miles every morning and go back home in scorching sun or snow in winter in mountainous areas. I personally spend time working at those schools. Unfortunately, the COVID situation has stopped us from going since 2019.

If you need to know anything further please PM.

None of your other posts have mentioned women’s suffering, a lot of them have implied women have equal status or more, so it wasn’t obvious to me that was your view. If it is then fair enough, but I don’t agree there’s no point mentioning stuff just because it’s obvious.

 

[Sultan]

I'm eating figs from Afghanistan. God bless the country and make it a success.

 

[africanspur]

This garb has obviously been introduced to the country by the many Arabs who came to the country during the Russian invasion.

I'll be honest, I've never seen a woman dressed like this in all my time in Arabic speaking countries. I've seen the one 2cents showed, with a slit for the eyes still but never this star wars like extreme covering of everything.

@2cents I'm interested if you know more about the women who were wearing that in pre-war Aleppo. Were they part of a particular sect or something?

 

[Sultan]

None of your other posts have mentioned women’s suffering, a lot of them have implied women have equal status or more, so it wasn’t obvious to me that was your view. If it is then fair enough, but I don’t agree there’s no point mentioning stuff just because it’s obvious.

It's fine. It's quite common we try to only understand what suits our own narrative.

 

[Zlatattack]

It's not just about what you wear man, ffs. Oh my god

I also don't think it's true that you can wear whatever you want. I haven't visited Pakistan but if I did I would know not to e.g. wear shorts or anything low cut as it would be considered immodest. It may not be illegal but that doesn't mean I wouldn't get some harrassment or other potential negative consequences if I did wear something 'taboo'.

I don't think I've done a good job of getting my perspective across. I believe that the average Afghan and the Taliban have the same opinions on what a womans role in society is. It's not one I agree with, but I believe if it was a venn diagram, it'd be like 80% overlap. This is why I think they're able to successfully impose their views on what is a fractious and tribal society. The blue shuttlecock Burqa was common in Afghanistan much before the Taliban and much after them too. Afghan women not having a place in public is pretty much the same too.

When I mentioned Pakistan, I didn't intend to present Pakistan as a liberal alternative. We Pakistani are a conservative bunch by western standards, but we're not by Afghan standards. Although even in Pakistan, you will see that Afghans and even our Pakistani pukhtun population, act in a much more conservative way, than Punjabi's or Sindhi's or Kashmiri's might. Go to a bazar in an eastern city in Pakistan and you'll find a greater mix of women and men than you will in the western cities, closer. The streets will have a lot more men in them in KPK and Balochistan. If you go to a huge city like Karachi, you'll see the contrast between areas where pukhtuns and Baloch reside and areas where Sindhi's or Urdu speaking Muhajirs reside.

My point was that even when these people are in Pakistan, were there is no state based compulsion for their dress, many still adhere to their strict dress code and their lack of appearance in public life.

==========

On a wider note, that lady dressed in all black - thats not very traditionally Afghan. The blue Burqa with the netting is quite Afghan, although.

 

[Zlatattack]

I'll be honest, I've never seen a woman dressed like this in all my time in Arabic speaking countries. I've seen the one 2cents showed, with a slit for the eyes still but never this star wars like extreme covering of everything.

@2cents I'm interested if you know more about the women who were wearing that in pre-war Aleppo. Were they part of a particular sect or something?

Funnily enough i've only seen that in the UK. I think it's dress of choice for the extreme salafi sorts.

 

[2cents]

@2cents I'm interested if you know more about the women who were wearing that in pre-war Aleppo. Were they part of a particular sect or something?

I don’t know unfortunately, I had kind of forgotten about them until seeing these pictures from Afghanistan reminded me. I remember the effect of the outfit was quite striking to me because when they’re walking towards you it’s as if they’re walking backwards. I’d really be interested to know if there’s something more behind it.