Fair enough. Though again, I doubt people are drawing direct parallels between the natures of their loan deals, the comparison is more of a casual simile. You're right about how the relative squad strengths factor into Adnan's development. Bremen didn't have Reus and Mkhitaryan and Kagawa, or even Hoffman to offer competition. That's kind of a given. But folks are just hoping that the end result is similar, rather than the process itself, or atleast that he shows the promise of further developing and polishing his game like De Bruyne did. Albeit to a lesser level in terms of progress if he understandably plays fewer minutes.
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Fair enough. Though again, I doubt people are drawing direct parallels between the natures of their loan deals, the comparison is more of a casual simile. You're right about how the relative squad strengths factor into Adnan's development. Bremen didn't have Reus and Mkhitaryan and Kagawa, or even Hoffman to offer competition. That's kind of a given. But folks are just hoping that the end result is similar, rather than the process itself, or atleast that he shows the promise of further developing and polishing his game like De Bruyne did. Albeit to a lesser level in terms of progress if he understandably plays fewer minutes.
What
?De Bruyne started his first available match (vs. us actually) and by the end of that game every Bremen supporter, rival fan or neutral spectator knew he was by quite a distance their best offensive player. Consequently he started every game he was available (he missed one with a light injury) and played all of them bar one over the whole distance. He even got away with complaining about Bremen and Germany in interviews and still played every minute. Similar to him, Matic was also immediate starter for Vitesse.
There is a massive difference between the loan deals of Matic and De Bruyne and the one of Januzaj. The first two were about temporaly increasing the strength of the first XI of their clubs. The last one is about squad depth, about having cover for the first XI. Nobody in Dortmund actually went into this deal with the expectation or thought of Januzaj becoming a full fledged starter. He is supposed to protect us from a too strong drop in quality if one our first choice options get injured or need rest.
To be completely honest, anyone believing Januzaj might actually push out one of our first three offensive midfielder based on performance alone (he would need to outperform them consistently) is either massively overrating Januzaj´s current abilities or underrating our players. He will never get past Reus, because even without top form the German is still the bigger game changer, Mkhitaryan is besides his current scoring abilities (which are far superior to the ones of Adnan) extremely valuable in terms of pressing and by far our strongest midfielder in terms of defensive contribution and Kagawa is part of the creative spine, whom the team is built around.
What
De Bruyne started his first available match (vs. us actually) and by the end of that game every Bremen supporter, rival fan or neutral spectator knew he was by quite a distance their best offensive player. Consequently he started every game he was available (he missed one with a light injury) and played all of them bar one over the whole distance. He even got away with complaining about Bremen and Germany in interviews and still played every minute. Similar to him, Matic was also immediate starter for Vitesse.
There is a massive difference between the loan deals of Matic and De Bruyne and the one of Januzaj. The first two were about temporaly increasing the strength of the first XI of their clubs. The last one is about squad depth, about having cover for the first XI. Nobody in Dortmund actually went into this deal with the expectation or thought of Januzaj becoming a full fledged starter. He is supposed to protect us from a too strong drop in quality if one our first choice options get injured or need rest.
To be completely honest, anyone believing Januzaj might actually push out one of our first three offensive midfielder based on performance alone (he would need to outperform them consistently) is either massively overrating Januzaj´s current abilities or underrating our players. He will never get past Reus, because even without top form the German is still the bigger game changer, Mkhitaryan is besides his current scoring abilities (which are far superior to the ones of Adnan) extremely valuable in terms of pressing and by far our strongest midfielder in terms of defensive contribution and Kagawa is part of the creative spine, whom the team is built around.
Feck me. The pedantry in this thread. And that's speaking as a massive pedant! The analogy is simple. Young players that left the PL with something to prove, became a key player in a different league and came back as established top class players. Which is obviously what we're hoping happens with Januzaj. So far so good on that front, I'd say.
Re the competition for places at Dortmund if he can't prove himself a better player than Kagawa I'm not sure I want him back...
He's just 20.
Why would we give up on such a talented young player at the age of 21? Kagawa has years of proven performances in Germany and with Dortmund. It will far easier for him to stamp his authority, not to mention he's actually their player.
I just want Januzaj to come back more confident and further in his development. He's not going to come back as an established top class player at the age of 21.
Fecking hell. I'm not writing off anyone! I just think Januzaj will become a much better player than Kagawa. I'm not putting a timeframe on it but I'd be disappointed if he ended up no better than the player who flattered to deceive in the PL.
Damn, I wish MadWinger was still with us.
Ah I just got the context of that. Cheers.
I agree. If Januzaj doesn't become a fair bit better than Kagawa it would through a lack of application IMO. He's far too talented.
It sure is, because it ignores all the circumstances, but carry on...
Eh, of course you do. You expect him to replace Kagawa in the running season. It also does not matter how Kagawa fared in the EPL here, because both don´t compete vs. each other there. The Bundesliga and Europa league is the battlefield here.
Yep, pretty much this. I also suspect Adnan might be a late developer, which from a supporter's perspective can be a death knell for young players in an age of statistical minutiae, twits, vine and instant gratification. He still possesses excellent technique that a lot of people have commented on, can see passes a lot of players his age don't, people criticize his lack of intelligence but IMO he lacks more in decisiveness and decision making consistency than overall footballing intelligence, which is kind of understandable given his age. All kind of patented traits for players that mature well with some tread under the tires, plus he's not as well developed physically when compared with a Shaw or Memphis, and will likely fill out slowly. The club needs to be a bit more patient with him. The talent is there (understand some don't see it at all, which is fair enough I guess), he just needs some direction and regular minutes to kind of pull it all together.
Adnan will displace Kagawa in no time.
There is no way he was wanted on loan as cover who will play the odd game and find it difficult being 3/4th choice. If anybody thinks Adnan was told this and still agreed to leave is out of their minds. Why leave as a starter for United for that?
LVG specifically said he was sent on loan for games, not a chance he was sent to Dortmund as 3rd / 4th choice to have less game time if what is being said in here is true.
For all the talk of underestimating Dortmund players there is massive underestimating of Adnan and the actual situation.
There is no way he was wanted on loan as cover who will play the odd game and find it difficult being 3/4th choice. If anybody thinks Adnan was told this and still agreed to leave is out of their minds. Why leave as a starter for United for that?
LVG specifically said he was sent on loan for games, not a chance he was sent to Dortmund as 3rd / 4th choice to have less game time if what is being said in here is true.
For all the talk of underestimating Dortmund players there is massive underestimating of Adnan and the actual situation.
Kagawa is doing well for Dortmund in both attack and defense, while Adnan is competing with Reus. I doubt it.
Yeah, januzaj is shit. He has no hope at all of playing regularly at a club filled with world class talents playing in such a tactically wonderful and complex league. A huge step up from playing for silly old United in the hoofball premier league.
Agree.
Decisiveness, and intensity, to an extent. Vision and understanding of the game has never been an issue. When he doesn't have less time to think he comes up with surprisingly good pieces of skill and thought.
From reports around that time PSG / Juve / PSV and the like were after him. He must be the thickest player in the world to accept the scenario you've been painting in this thread.Yeah. I'm sure he was guaranteed a starting spot at Dortmund
He'll have had a talk with the manager about his development and what is expected of him. It's not as if he was coming from a hopeless situation at United or was short of loan options.
I remember when United were furious with Newcastle over their treatment of Rossi when we sent him there. It hasn't happened since and I'll be shocked if it's happening now
I think going to Dortmund will improve these parts of his game. First of all because of their pressing game and also because of their players playing faster than we did at United. You kind of have to up your intensity with how they press. It will be a good learning experience for him.
What picture am I painting exactly? At the moment it will probably be 50/50 between him and Hofmann, but if he settles in well he has a good chance to be Dortmund's first bench player. Do you think PSG or Juve would have offered him more on a loan?
I think he participated pretty well in the overload on the left which dortumd use under tuchel. He offers something different to reus since he moves to the touchline and invites a defender out of position unlike reus who just stays in the half space making the area more compact. This also allows schmelzer to make diagonal runs into the half space rather than just hugging the touchline. Both goals yesterday came from Januzaj using the touchline beating a man and creating an imbalance in the marking system leading to more space on the underloaded side.
So no I think he fits fine with Dortmund and offers them something different when played in the reus/free to roam position. One thing he does lack is the quick passing rhythm of Dortmund. He tends to slow the game down to his pace. We will find out with more games if that suits tuchels system or not. I see him getting a lot opportunities to impress.
If he were offered the same opportunities from all of those clubs why would he pick Dortmund?
Dunno, maybe he likes our play style, the league or our stadium? You need to ask him. What I seriously doubt is that there were any promises about the games where he starts for us. The only one who decides that is the coach and Tuchel was hardly involved in this signing process (that was all handled by DoF Zorc) outside of identifying him as a good option for us.
The only way Januzaj gets into the starting line up in important games is by impressing Tuchel enough in training and matches to leave out one of Reus, Mkhitaryan and Kagawa, which will be hard because all of them are currently performing on a higher level than him. If that would be a long term deal, his potential might make a vital difference for him, but with the deal being as it is the only thing that matters is what he can bring on the pitch right now.
Being too respectful there. There's no bloody way a player on loan at a club like Dortmund gets guarantees about game time. Not when he isn't even better than their starters. Had Januzaj demanded the same, he wouldn't be at Dortmund now. Clubs that big don't go around guaranteeing game time to their own players, let alone some kid on loan.
But both Schmelzer and Ginter are rather limited. Doesn't it make much more sense to have it the other way round and let the more dangerous attacker exploit that pocket of space?
Who knows how interested Juventus and PSG were this summer, who knows what role they offered him. And even if all three offered him the same perspective maybe he prefered Bundesliga or Dortmund's style?
Different player when given the freedom to create and find pockets and channels. Truly can create a moment of magic and scoring chance out of nothing, but because of this he also gives the ball away a little more than others. As much as I want to see him make it here, I just can't see him ever prospering under LVG's style. Hope I am proven wrong but looked a different player yesterday - flashes of the past in the Moyes era.
Very impressive performance. Could be a seriously good player by the time he comes back.
He's been training with Dortmund for how long? A week now? It's not like what you're seeing from him right now is a step in his development, it's probably just the difference in style between Dortmund and United.
Yes! Exactly. Fans assume any player with skill and vision should end up in the hole these days. But if you have that playmaking ability and you can dribble at pace and beat a man, it's better to start from a wide position and then you have the option of either cutting inside to look for a shot/through ball or going down the outside and beating your man.
Multitalented players need to be in positions where they can potentially exploit all their various strengths, not just some of them. That's what makes them hard to defend against.
I wouldn't say shmelzer is limited. He contributes a lot positionally. He was involved in the first goal yesterday exactly from the position that I wrote about. Ginter on the other hand is a CB and is being played IMO exactly for that aerial prowess at the back post which keeps the ball in the dangerous/pressure area if he doesn't score like he did yesterday. It would also depend on the oppositions weaknesses. Its possible that ginter not piszezck plays against a small left back even if its a top notch opposition.
I think Januzaj offers something different compared to Reus and that's also important. He might not get regular game time when reus is fit but I expect him to come on when Dortmund can't find a way through..I think tuchel already trusts him
Who said that?
Your post looked like excitement to me.
Yeah sorry on behalf of the caf posters. We'll make sure noone gets excited watching our loaned player do well this season.
Not saying people shouldn't get excited. I'm just surprised that people don't ask why Januzaj is already looking good after just one week with his new team. I mean either you have to assume that something at United held him back or wonder why van Gaal would loan out such a player, because what he showed at Dortmund thus far suggests that he could help United's team a lot.
You seem intent on making this a "united problem", whereas fans are content and happy seeing their loaned player do well.
Also people are over analytical/critical of players who are actually in our team. Our attack has lacked goals, so every part of that attack is criticized. Januzaj actually did quite well in the three starts he got this season. Like in your game, he always produces nice moments here and there of genuine quality. But when United are failing to score it matters. Whereas if Dortmund are scoring, even if it's not him scoring, his nice moments look better.
What we need for him is to get more games than LVG believed he would have here, and improve. That's what matters. I don't think I saw a DIFFERENT JANUZAJ for your lot yesterday. But he started, and played a little better than he has for us.
Sometimes a change of environment can also be good for a player.
Newsflash: he has also looked good playing for United.
Obviously, he didn't get to play many games against opposition as poor as the side Dortmund needed an injury time goal to beat. So that should be taken into account too.
I had the impression that his moments of individual class were less frequent for United.
And I'm not trying to hide that I see this loan as a strange piece of business from United's point of view.
And I'm not trying to hide that I see this loan as a strange piece of business from United's point of view.
You're trying too hard to show it. We all get it.
If he progresses well we'll be happy even if the loan confused many at first.
And you're talking as if he was world class last night and Dortmund extracted from him what we've never EVER seen. Good game, but the team he was playing was a joke compared to the high intensity PL games.
Also, if he does indeed put on cracking performances, I can assure you that's an outcome that is welcome at OT.
Less frequent as in, less than once per week? As you just reminded us, he's only been playing at Dortmund for a week.
Schmelzer just isn't great on the ball. His technique isn't sharp, so he loses precious time while getting the ball under control. He also isn't a great passer: his short passes are okay, but he isn't exactly the player who offers penetration and he's also not the best at taking on other players.
His crossing has been decent this season, but that's probably another reason why he should stay wide.
It worked for the equalizer, but in general Schmelzer just isn't the player you want to have in a packed central area, because he's simply not nearly as effective as one of the AMs and part of the reason why Dortmund didn't have a great game yesterday was imho that they really lacked presence in the central area, at times it reminded me a bit of last season. Obviously this wasn't all Januzaj's fault since the other players Tuchel brought into the team didn't have great games, but I think this will be a problem for him against better sides.
Obviously he played well individually and having a more individualistic approach is a decent plan B if things aren't going so well for you, but I assume that Januzaj will try to be more than that.
Less frequently as in less good scenes per playtime.
I'm not saying his performance was world class and I already said that I don't think that much changes in one week.
My impression is just that he's playing better than at United, which makes me wonder why, especially because I already thought of this as a strange move.
Maybe he's the type of player who get's excited about new challenges and channels it into performance, maybe I'm just underrating his United performance, or maybe it's about the teams. Who knows? That's why most people share some of their thoughts in a forum.
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I'm the biggest Januzaj fanboy on this forum and even I'd say that's an overreaction. It's a wonderful loan for him - a risky one, no doubt, but potentially the making of him, a Lukaku-at-Everton or Courtois-at-Atletico sort of loan. (Hopefully the latter, because Lukaku's still at Everton!
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