Hey Spoony, no need for spoilers in this thread. I remember your dislike for Deus Ex Machinas from the LOST threads, but I think you'll need to rethink this one because Littlefinger had every motive to betray Ned Stark. There was a lot of justification given for why he did it and you'll see a lot more to come. That's just who Littlefinger is a selfish, cunning, conniving mastermind, its the most character driven plot development in the story and you'll see it unravel with time.
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
- Thread starter Massive Spanner
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Hey Spoony, no need for spoilers in this thread. I remember your dislike for Deus Ex Machinas from the LOST threads, but I think you'll need to rethink this one because Littlefinger had every motive to betray Ned Stark. There was a lot of justification given for why he did it and you'll see a lot more to come. That's just who Littlefinger is a selfish, cunning, conniving mastermind, its the most character driven plot development in the story and you'll see it unravel with time.
LOST had a lot of deus ex machina, so I recognize that it does happen (the finale of Battlestar Galactica was an atrocious example), it just doesn't fit this case at all. It's simply not deus ex machina.
In a setting as rich as A Song of Ice and Fire (and thus Game of Thrones) there will be so many and so complex characters that you will sometimes run into situations where characters had motivations that you simply didn't realize where there. That doesn't automatically make them deus ex machina.
I think you should just keep watching the show, Spoony. And also I think you should stay out of this thread if you want to have full enjoyment of the show. We get a lot of enjoyment from it, even though we know what is going to happen, because we've read the books and love them so. If a non-reader came across huge spoilers it would undoubtedly devalue the series in a way that doesn't happen with us.
In a setting as rich as A Song of Ice and Fire (and thus Game of Thrones) there will be so many and so complex characters that you will sometimes run into situations where characters had motivations that you simply didn't realize where there. That doesn't automatically make them deus ex machina.
I think you should just keep watching the show, Spoony. And also I think you should stay out of this thread if you want to have full enjoyment of the show. We get a lot of enjoyment from it, even though we know what is going to happen, because we've read the books and love them so. If a non-reader came across huge spoilers it would undoubtedly devalue the series in a way that doesn't happen with us.
Is that Khal Drogo fighting against Denerys's guard? Not the Knight Serr Jorah, but the Dothraki guy who used the whip to catch the assassin?
1. The Hound walking towards Sansa with that grin on his face.
2. Varys meeting Ned in the dungeons.
3. The wight at the wall.
4. Drogo's fight.
5. The kingsguard unsheathing their swords in perfect unison.
Epic Badassery. The next show's going to be so
It looked like Drogo was fighting Denerys's guard (the guy who had a talk to Serr Jorah a few episodes back, and caught the assassin in episode 7 with his whip).
I hope not even though it seems it, I liked that guy. Maybe its just training or something and HBO are doing their TV magic by making it more exciting and deceiving than it actually is
It's Ser Jorah. Ser as in Sir.
I hope it isn't him, hard to tell from that. We'll find out soon enough
Man I didn't like Drogo. Was glad when he died. The whole side story with him, Daenerys and the Dragons etc I didn't like to be honest, and also housed some of the creepiest 'love' scenes in literature. I reckon Daenerys is the worst character in the series, and the book should have done without Dragons- I don't really see how it needed them. GRRM should never have gone back and put them in. They will probably end up fighting the Others or something though.
Oh bollocks, clicked on the wrong Game of Thrones thread and have now ruined it for myself
But since I'm here, this is something I've just wondered. The dragon(?) eggs that Daenery's receives, are they useful for anything at all or do they hatch or something?
Oh bollocks, clicked on the wrong Game of Thrones thread and have now ruined it for myself
But since I'm here, this is something I've just wondered. The dragon(?) eggs that Daenery's receives, are they useful for anything at all or do they hatch or something?
No. Go away. You have one thing spoiled. No need to risk bigger things spoiled. You don't want any answers.
I guess so. Hopefully I'll get an answer to it soon on the show, just been bugging me.
You could always read the books...
In theory yes, but in practice me actually picking up a book is unlikely. Up until now obviously, the reason I think I'm enjoying the show is because I don't know whats going to happen next. The egg thing I kept thinking was a small part of the show and it was one of those small things annoying me. I obviously don't want to find out who dies next or what happens to x,y and z.
The only issue I'll find with reading the book now is that I'll constantly keep comparing it to the show than just enjoy it. If I read it before I knew about the show then it would have been different I guess.
You could always read the books...
i dloaded and tried to. feck me this shit is long.
Agreed. That said, these books are so brilliantly written and the characters are so good that you'll find the same excitement in reading the books as you get watching the show for the first time. Some of us who have read all the books, some more than once, are not nitcpicking or comparing it to the books at all and I sure as hell am enjoying every minute of it. Its great to see something you like come alive on the screen like this.
And I guarantee you there are some chapters in the books that no TV show or movie is ever going to do justice to.
Not too long to go for GRRM's episode. Can't wait.
I find the quality of the shows very similar to the quality of the LOTR trilogy. Both series are not staying 100% true to the books, stuff is left out, some stuff is altered, some stuff is added. However, the coherence of the story remains from the books. It is a really brilliant job because so often book adaptations fail miserably.
I think it's certainly helped that G.R.R. Martin himself has been a heavy part of this, and has even directed an episode (today's episode!) himself, and will do a few more for the following seasons. He's had heavy input in nearly everything.
Wow just wow. Seriously GRRM shoudl write every episode. That was just epic tv. Brilliant. And how badass is Drogo? I'm pissed he isn't going to be around much longer.
I'm torn between wathing the series and reading the book. Haven't seen an episode since since the 5th.
Taking a breather after the Jon chapther where he was put in the cell. fecking hell! Never saw that coming. Although I have to work in the morning I have to get to the next Eddard chapter
My usual site is down (it does that sometimes), and obviously the bay of unfriendly sailors isn't being very helpful. I need to see this! Now! I need to see it now!
inbox
Jesus fecking christ, that episode! That episode!
So good..
So good..
I'm gonna call it right now and say episode 10 ends with Dany and something peaking out of something, FADE TO BLACK.
Followed by millions of viewers around the world simultaneously going fecking bananas knowing they have to wait 9 and a half months for more.
Followed by millions of viewers around the world simultaneously going fecking bananas knowing they have to wait 9 and a half months for more.
It's ok, you're allowed to say dragons in here! Stupid part of the book IMO. Am I right in thinking he went back and put the dragons in almost as an afterthought because his granddaughter or somebody asked him to? I know I remember reading something along those lines.
No, I don't think so at all. The whole concept as I understand it is that magic in this world waxes and wanes. Dragons are indelibly linked to the magic, and may very well be the cause of it.
Dragons start hatching. Giants start rampaging. Zombies start rising. You get the picture!
For me anyways, I don't really care about the magic aspect or the idea of fantastical critters. The series is still rooted in a gritty real worldesque setting where magic isn't overt in your face with dudes shooting fireballs at each other. It's like Tolkien's magic, behind the scenes, it's there but you don't really see it, even though you see it.
If he did then he did an amazing job at weaving it into the story, considering the whole thing is basically about the dragons. One way or another.
It'a not basically about the dragons, or at least it hasn't been. It may well head that way, but the first book was most definitely not about them, and they have only recently started getting more limelight.
I just don't buy the idea that he somehow put them in as an afterthought. I very much doubt he didn't have a fairly clear idea of where it was going.
It may have even been in one of the book disclaimers that I read it. Arse. I wish I had my books with me. I know I read that thing about the dragons, I'm sure of it. It's going to bug me now
Yes, there is a "she made me put the dragons in", but nothing says when that happened. He must have gotten the idea from somewhere, the same as with any other part of his series. A full story doesn't suddenly pop into existence for a fantasy writer. Someone probably gave him the idea of the direwolves too, that doesn't mean they were an afterthought and not a genuine part of the story.
It's all connected to the Others and the long winter. This was never meant to be a completely "realistic" fantasy. The fantastical aspect of it is there from the start. Obviously it will only get more fantastical, since the whole point is that magic is returning to the world. Dragons, Others, actual magic, etc.
That doesn't take away from the "realpolitik" aspect. That is equally a part of it. A theme that was started in the very first book was that the realms of men were squabbling amongst each other while the long winter was returning.
It's all connected to the Others and the long winter. This was never meant to be a completely "realistic" fantasy. The fantastical aspect of it is there from the start. Obviously it will only get more fantastical, since the whole point is that magic is returning to the world. Dragons, Others, actual magic, etc.
That doesn't take away from the "realpolitik" aspect. That is equally a part of it. A theme that was started in the very first book was that the realms of men were squabbling amongst each other while the long winter was returning.
You seem to be arguing a point no one has even bothered making.
Of course he got the idea from somewhere. That is a point so blatantly obvious it seems stupid to even reiterate it.
I'm also pretty aware of how stories come together, and there are major plot aspects that wouldn't have been put in, or even thought up, until a long time after he had started the writing. My point was, as you have basically just confirmed, that when he originally started to plan the book, dragons obviously weren't in his initial planning. It also highlights the fact the whole book wasn't basically about dragons. I only made this point as I feel he should never have put them in in the first place, because I reckon that whole side story is weaker than the rest of the book. In all honesty if you went back and took out every mention of dragons, the books wouldn't read any differently until the bit where Dany gathers an army. And that isn't a part that is wholly dependent on dragons, as he could have invented a thousand ways for her to gather an army. The dragons just became a useful tool. Obviously I have no way of knowing exactly when he started planning on putting the dragons in, I suspect it was after he had started writing though. I just wish he hadn't bothered, that's all.
I don't even know what your last paragraph is in relation to. I know what the book is about, I've read it half a dozen times.
What's with the attitude? If you don't like it, don't read it. You're the one who brought up a frankly pointless discussion in the first place. Regardless, this isn't the A Song of Ice and Fire thread; this is the Game of Thrones book spoiler thread.
I am sorry if your post made it seem like you weren't really too familiar with the books. I'm afraid that's not something I can control. If you want to continue this discussion feel free to start a new thread. For now, let's stick to the TV series. And all I can say is that for the TV series, the Daenerys plot-line has been among the better ones.
I am sorry if your post made it seem like you weren't really too familiar with the books. I'm afraid that's not something I can control. If you want to continue this discussion feel free to start a new thread. For now, let's stick to the TV series. And all I can say is that for the TV series, the Daenerys plot-line has been among the better ones.
I said that he should have never put the dragons in, and that I thought I remember him saying he actually put them in as an afterthought.
Which bit of that is pointless..?
Maybe not so much pointless as baseless. He never said he put them in as an afterthought, all of this is based off on one single dedication for one of the books that suggests someone gave him the idea of the dragons. At what part of the process? Who knows. I have seen nothing else on the matter from Martin himself.
That's why I said 'I thought' and asked it as a question originally. Obviously I remembered the exact quote wrong
Fair enough. Shall we leave this? Regardless of what we think of individual plot-lines of the book, what matters for this thread is how it works for the series. Personally I think Daenerys has been very good for the series. I guess we'll have to see how it works post-Drogo.
To be honest I'm still yet to watch even the first episode, so I can't really say! I guess I probably should, it's not like I have much else to do outside of work now- I only have 1 exam left. I was going to watch the film Hanna tonight, but I might start watching this instead.
Has Ned been beheaded yet? I didn't really like the books up until then, when they suddenly took off, I'm sort of thinking it might be the same for the TV series too.
The series is pretty damn good. Obviously there's been some exposition (or sexposition, as it's now called, since it's often done during certain.. acts), but for the most part I don't mind them. Ned is in the dungeons at the moment, and Rob is marching south. I think there's two episodes left of the season. It was renewed for a second season after one or two episodes.
You definitely need to start watching it.
You definitely need to start watching it.
Just starting Storm of Swords for the second reading. I forgot how awesome the prologue for the book is. The surprise/fear is palpable in the last few paragraphs when they hear three horns sound, rather than one or two.
So I finally got round to watching this, have watched the first 4 episodes. It's good, though if people are raving about this already I can't wait to see thir reactions come the second season.
Few uncertainties on character casting; The Spider doesn't seem nearly as creepy as I imagined him to be, Theon looks to be about 5 foot nothing, also is the Mountain really that big in this? He didn't look like a 'Mountain-that-rides' in the brief clip I saw of him. Not too convinced by Sam either. And I think Gendry is a pretty rubbish casting in all honesty. The skinny lad from Skins? Really? There must have been thousands of better options.
Overall though, pretty impressive casting. Sean Bean deserves to be a character who doesn't get killed off within Season 1 but is very good as Ned; Tyrion is absolutely spot on; Arya is very good; the lad who plays Viserys is very, very good and Ser Jory is very good. They also proably couldn't have found a better actor to play Drogo.
Gutted we haven't seen more of the Dire Wolves, but then hardly surprising I guess since the dogs don't really look like the beasts from the books, although I guess at this stage they are still young. I'm not as sucked into it yet as most, but that's probably because I know what happens and wasn't the biggest fan of this book anyhow. Will definitely stick with it though. Really looking forward to see it all kick off between Robb and the Lannisters though.
ALso, does anyone else remain unconvinced by the scene in the Inn where Kat arranges the capture of Tyrion? Even in the book I thought it was a bit farfetched
Few uncertainties on character casting; The Spider doesn't seem nearly as creepy as I imagined him to be, Theon looks to be about 5 foot nothing, also is the Mountain really that big in this? He didn't look like a 'Mountain-that-rides' in the brief clip I saw of him. Not too convinced by Sam either. And I think Gendry is a pretty rubbish casting in all honesty. The skinny lad from Skins? Really? There must have been thousands of better options.
Overall though, pretty impressive casting. Sean Bean deserves to be a character who doesn't get killed off within Season 1 but is very good as Ned; Tyrion is absolutely spot on; Arya is very good; the lad who plays Viserys is very, very good and Ser Jory is very good. They also proably couldn't have found a better actor to play Drogo.
Gutted we haven't seen more of the Dire Wolves, but then hardly surprising I guess since the dogs don't really look like the beasts from the books, although I guess at this stage they are still young. I'm not as sucked into it yet as most, but that's probably because I know what happens and wasn't the biggest fan of this book anyhow. Will definitely stick with it though. Really looking forward to see it all kick off between Robb and the Lannisters though.
ALso, does anyone else remain unconvinced by the scene in the Inn where Kat arranges the capture of Tyrion? Even in the book I thought it was a bit farfetched