Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?

I just love how dedicated Martin is to character development, and he rarely ever lets the narrative intrude on this.

I mean, he likes keeping his readers guessing, and he likes to keep the veil of mystery, but at the same time, he is not sticking stubbornly to the unwritten rule of modern fiction that the audience should always be at least one step behind the characters in order to sustain the mystery.

This is one of the annoying things that breaks the immersion for me in other works. If the audience knows a piece of information, you could bet your arse that so too will the characters(every single one of them). Somehow it's deemed unthinkable that the characters would lag behind in this regard, as if to say "This is not how the game is played, characters reveal information to the readers, they must always know more."

Martin is not afraid to make a character completely oblivious to certain things, even though we already know a lot about them. Point in case is this mystery of John Snow's parenthood, and when Ned Dayne talks about his mother with Arya, and it's an itch that needs scratching, and you wish so bad that Arya would be more inquisitive about it, hoping that maybe you'll learn just a little bit more, but she's just like "Oh shut up kid, you don't know what you're on about", and that's the end of it. She doesn't even know the little that we do, but then why should she? No new information gets revealed, rather an old piece of information is fed to a character that doesn't know anything about it and she just flat out dismisses it. The plot is not developed, but the character is.

It's one of the best things about the books I think, that the characters are not slaves to the narrative, they are not just temporary mediums for the necessary exposition, but pursue their own ends instead, and the author makes a tremendous effort to get inside their heads. I think he thinks if he does a good job of that, that itself will tell a story in a much more spontaneous way, than if he had them jumping out of character at every turn just because 'we know something' or the story needs an m. night shyamalan twist.

I think if he stays true to that, I wont ever be disappointed by a development, just because some people on the internet saw it coming like Christmas.
 
Loveable rogue? That guy annoyed the hell out of me.

Was thrilled when I got to kill him.

Yea but he basically had the attitude of Robin Hood. You either find these characters charming or you hate them.
 
Heh, yeah it's probably the biggest theory out there.

It makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Rhaegar was supposed to be very attractive to women, and Lyanna never really had that much affection for Robert, so I don't think Rhaegar abducted her, I think she went with him willingly.

Lyanna spent a long time alone in the Tower of Joy which could have been to hide her pregnancy and her words 'Promise me, Ned' to her brother could have been to him to look after her child by disguising him as his own. Ned would have done this out of love for his sister. Jon looks like the Starks so he could be taking after Lyanna who had the Stark look, and Melisandre's seen him in her fires so he could be AA reborn if he's Rhaegar's son because he's from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

That was my rambling thoughts when I read it, but I was sure I was just thinking up nonsense... until it seemed half the internet seemed to agree with me!
 
I know in places like reddit Jon's supposed parentage being that of Rhaegar and Lyanna is almost accepted as fact now rather than a theory. That's how much it's been discussed.

In fairness to Martin, I didn't think it was that obvious as a theory. It was just when I got on the internet, saw someone mention it and then it all just clicked. I agree with Cina that this was clearly the angle he was going for but he just didn't expect the theory to be seen as a near fact amongst the online community. His own fault for taking so damn long between novels!
 
Have you read any Joe Abercrombie? Martin is a big fan apparently. I ask because Joe created a character with an incredible amount of blood on his hands who does just come across as a loveable rogue.

The Bloody Nine.

I'm on the second book. Pausing to read the new Jim Butcher book. :drool:
 
I'm sure Kinslaying is still seen as worse.

Regardless, Jaime had to kill Aerys. I don't know why they added him killing Cleos in the show. It could have been written much differently. The only time Jaime was probably wrong in trying to kill someone was pushing Bran out of the window, and that was to protect Cersei. He's not really a cold blooded killer.

Very pissed off for it. I like very much Jaime from the books (probably my favorite), but in TV show he is a different character.

Heh, yeah it's probably the biggest theory out there. I'd say this was Martin's original plan back in the 90's but then the internet came along and now everyone thinks this will be the case, so he'll probably back out and do something else instead. I thought Jon would be Azar Ahai reborn, especially given what happened at the end of the last book.

Don't know why to alter it though (if it was really his original plan) which is very possible and makes a lot of sense. Also, agree about Azar Ahai, Melisandre was mistaken about Stannis being him (the visions are not clear). I am almost sure that Jon will survive till at-least the final battle.
 
Well, I'm on the last chapter of Dance with Dragons now.

Jon :( Please say he's ok... I really love Jon Snow (I like him more because the actor that plays him in the TV series is hot, admittedly, but he's still a good character).

I don't think Martin will have killed him off because it just seems like it doesn't really help the story at all. But then, he can be ruthless so I just don't know...
 
Yeah Dany has been the most annoying character in the series for a long time. The fifth book was generally poor all round. Next book needs to be excellent or this epic he has created will end up a massive waste after the brilliance of the first three.

If only he'd kill her stupid annoying character off, the book would flow so much better.

How many chapters did he dedicate writing about her and her stupid dragons and being lost in the desert? Have to admit, it got to the stage where I flicked to the last paragraph in every chapter which was about her....
 
I've learnt to never get attached to any character in these books. Seems whenever I start to actually care about one they are killed off. Does make me less interested in the books though.

Reading through the last one ended up more a chore than anything. Even then hardly anything really changes during the books now. Its all just a big waiting game it seems before Dany finally gets off her ass and makes her way back home.
 
Penny is the most depressing character in the whole series. :(

Just throwing that out there.
 
Well, I'm on the last chapter of Dance with Dragons now.

Jon :( Please say he's ok... I really love Jon Snow (I like him more because the actor that plays him in the TV series is hot, admittedly, but he's still a good character).

I don't think Martin will have killed him off because it just seems like it doesn't really help the story at all. But then, he can be ruthless so I just don't know...

I don't reckon Jon is dead. Will live on through Ghost or get rescurrected by the Red Lady or something. Don't think he'll die until it's been revealed who his parents are.
 
I don't reckon Jon is dead. Will live on through Ghost or get rescurrected by the Red Lady or something. Don't think he'll die until it's been revealed who his parents are.

That never occurred to me. Didn't a character already do that in DwD? Surely it's too weird even for Martin though?
 
That never occurred to me. Didn't a character already do that in DwD? Surely it's too weird even for Martin though?

Not really. There's been more than enough stuff written through a warging perspective, and I'm pretty sure there was an Eagle that was basically a dead wildling.
Personally, I think he'll be saved by the Red Lady.
 
That never occurred to me. Didn't a character already do that in DwD? Surely it's too weird even for Martin though?

Not really, Martin dedicated the intro in the last book to a character that was a warg, and the Stark children all have warging powers, and since Jon last word in the book was "Ghost", I think that's what's will happen. I think his body will be preserved somehow, and then somehow the red lady will transfer his soul from Ghost to his corpse, or something.

I think Jon is azhor assai, so he will be reborn somehow with the aid of the red lady, and will start to step into role as being the main protagonist of series together with Dany.
 
Jon dying doesn't make sense. From the beginning of the books it looked that him together with Danny and possibly Tyrion are the main characters and they will lead the final war. Dying now doesn't make sense, unless Martin has decided to give the books an another direction.
 
Him living on through Ghost would be shit. We saw when Varamyr Sixskins warged into his wolf that he remembers nothing of his life before. If Jon is Ghost now there'll be no inner monologue, which is what so much of Jon's chapters are. He'll just be a wolf with maybe some 'instincts'. Hope it doesn't go down that route.
 
Him living on through Ghost would be shit. We saw when Varamyr Sixskins warged into his wolf that he remembers nothing of his life before. If Jon is Ghost now there'll be no inner monologue, which is what so much of Jon's chapters are. He'll just be a wolf with maybe some 'instincts'. Hope it doesn't go down that route.

Possibly. Even though Jon is a bit of bland character, I hope he isn't dead. Still has much to offer the story.
 
:lol: Then they'll find out that BRAN, ARYA, AND TYRION ALL DIE HORRIBLE DEATHS.

lol... I read this a fair while ago when I was mucking around in this thread before even finishing the second book... Pissed me off that someone would post something like that, in CAPS no less ;P well played, you dickhead!

Finished ADwD this week, so am now catching up with this thread's discussion points ^_^
 
lol... I read this a fair while ago when I was mucking around in this thread before even finishing the second book... Pissed me off that someone would post something like that, in CAPS no less ;P well played, you dickhead!

Finished ADwD this week, so am now catching up with this thread's discussion points ^_^

:lol:

Ah well you've caught up with the rest of us.....sitting, waiting for x years until he gets round to the next book
 
:lol:

Ah well you've caught up with the rest of us.....sitting, waiting for x years until he gets round to the next book

Or till GRRM dies in a twist every bit as cruel as anything he's written up himself ;P

And there's always next season on the telly to look forward to :drool:
 
When is the next book actually due out? or has nothing been said yet?

He says he expects to write it far quicker than ADwD, but it's still over 1,500 pages long and he's only written 400 so far or something, so I won't be overly optimistic.
 
I'd guess at least another 2 years, after that the TV show will probably continue the story, least that's my theory.
 
I'd guess at least another 2 years, after that the TV show will probably continue the story, least that's my theory.

Well the TV show still has at least four seasons on current material. Two for book three and probably two/three for books four and five (which I assume will be done in sync and not one at a time). Though if that's the case I reckon season five and six will pale in comparison to three and four, so hopefully they add extra stuff.

They've also suggested the idea of doing prequels (like Robert's rebellion) while waiting on the last two books.
 
I have no idea how they expect to fit the whole of ASOS in 10 episodes.
 
Good thing they're not then. It's being split into two seasons, like the book.

But I heard season three will have ...

the red wedding
 
Oh wait, was the aforementioned spoiler in the second of the two books?
 
Yup.

It's around 200 pages into the second half of the book, so I guess they moved it forward cause they'd rather have it as the finale, or second last episode as opposed to three or four episodes in.
 
I was going to say there isn't a lot left now for Robb Stark in the series except to die but we are getting the Blackfish and Edmure Tully coming in next season. Guess there will be a few episodes about them, Hoster and Riverrun. Then a few people that I know will be extremely disappointed.
 
It will be funny seeing the reactions to Robb's death, he's an extremely popular character and they're really drilling home his romance with Jeyne (or whatever her fine arse is called in the show).
 
It's annoying that they changed that, because it kind of hints that there's nothing left with Jeyne like a secret pregnancy. I suppose it could also happen with Talisa but the fact that they changed her came across to me like she wasn't too important to the story for Martin. Was hoping Robb had an heir.
 
Finished the first book and really enjoyed it, just started the second.

Just one thing about A Game of Thrones, I really fecking hope that Mya Stone actually becomes relevant in a later book otherwise that 20 page chapter of Catelyn being a nob trying to reach the Eyrie is going to bug me forever.

What was the fecking point apart from to show what a set of dickheads Robert Baratheon, Lysa and Catelyn are?
 
They've confirmed the RW will happen in
episode 9
(episode number).
 
Finally finished a Dance with Dragons so can get in on this discussion!

The death of Ned Stark in A Game of Thrones was a major shock, but I think that set the tone for the rest of the series. Martin won't be pulling any punches for the advancement of the story.

I don't think Jon is dead, he's come too far since the beginning. Although we've been told Stannis is dead, we haven't seen the body through another character so I'm holding off on that. As mentioned before, Jon may become Azor Ahai.

Favourite characters are Jon and Arya. I really hope Martin finds a way (that's not too contrived) to bring all the main characters together in some way in the last book. Everyone's all over the place at the minute and I'm guessing there's going to be a full out war at the end. I suppose it makes sense actually in a 'coming full circle' kind of way. Everyone (except Danaerys) were together in the first book and hopefully they will all come together in the last.

In fact, I hope that everyone learns how to harness their power ala Heroes; e.g. all the Starks become out-and-out wargs, Danaerys manages to gain control of her 3 dragons. That could lead to some epic storytelling.

My one major gripe with the series is that Martin goes too far out of his way to describe what everyone is wearing. There's not much to choose from boiled leather, a tunic, a doublet and a longsword, the most Martin can do is add the sigils and a bit of colour. But after the first few times, it gets a bit repetitive.

Looking forward to the next book in any case, does anyone know when it will be out?
 
My one major gripe with the series is that Martin goes too far out of his way to describe what everyone is wearing. There's not much to choose from boiled leather, a tunic, a doublet and a longsword, the most Martin can do is add the sigils and a bit of colour. But after the first few times, it gets a bit repetitive.

I think he's way worse when it comes to describing feasts. My god that man can write about food.
 
Stannis clearly isn't dead, just re-read parts of ADOD again fairly recently as I probably rushed through the first read a while back. Everything that Ramsay Snow mentioned he could have got from Mance and the Spearwives. I don't see Theon and Jeyne Poole splitting from Stannis and his army.

Hinting someone is dead and it then turns out they aren't is a common Martin trait across the novels