Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?

Its a lot more interesting for us men too, btw.

The Starks are basically your atypical aryan fantasy uber-men and while I will admit being crushed by what happened to Ned and then to Rob ... and then Jon (maybe), as characters they are pretty normal.

There is a part of me that roots for the darker male characters, Jaime mainly, he's a total dick and the infatuation with his sister is all kinds of creepy but it seems like deep down he has a good heart and tries to do the right thing. But when all you have is a hammer, all problems start to look like nails and that's probably his major downfall, he's just too good and too quick at the killing.

I think the major difference is just a progression of the times, in all characters, it's acceptable these days for them to have flaws, real ones, in stead of virtues-in-waiting and that's something that wasn't really in the ascendancy for the last while, certainly in Tolkien's day.
 
Obviously I knew what was going to happen to Ned because I'd watched the TV series, but I was completely shocked by Robb's death. I really liked Robb. Catelyn was alright, but she annoyed me with the way she treated Jon after Bran's fall, it wasn't his fault (and it also wasn't his fault that he was born!), so I wasn't as upset by her death (and then she came back to life anyway), but I had been rooting for Robb and felt deflated by his death, especially the manner of it with the betrayal and all that.

The storylines with Daenerys in DwD are also starting to annoy me now too. Wish she'd just get back to Westeros already and stop faffing about, it's very tedious now.

I love Bran's storyline too - I think he's underrated. He brings out the more fantasy side of the story. Martin has said he's the most difficult character to write - I can understand that!
 
Cina said:
Dany's story has been rubbish since Drogo died, in truth.
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Agreed. You can tell she'll have a big part to play towards the end though. Martin just doesn't know how to keep her busy till then.
 
MG said:
For a start, I really like LOTR and the Hobbit, so I'm not criticising Tolkien per se, but I do think he did a pretty bad job in portraying women, or simply just neglected them. Fantasy books are almost always written with a patriarchal society as their backdrop (usually because they're quite medieval in their outlook) - but there's still scope to present women well, which Tolkien doesn't do.

In the book of the Hobbit, there are actually no female characters, none at all. And in LOTR and especially the Silmarillion most of the women are quite stereotypical - they're all beautiful, all kind and loving and all passive (it's more noticable in the Silmarillion). You could say Galadriel maybe does command respect being a high elf, but when she starts losing it and getting ambitious in that one moment of LOTR that's seen as a bad thing, and when she's passive again she returns to being this idealistic woman. Eowyn has her moment when she kills the witch king in Return of the King (a sort of parallel with Brienne in SOIAF I suppose) - Tolkien's one 'YES!' moment for women in the whole story - but she marries Faragorn at the end and reverts to the passive woman and wife. Both Galadriel and Eowyn are also very beautiful in a traditional sense. So it all goes back neatly into women not upsetting the way things are.

You're right, essentially, Tolkien was writing in a pre-feminist world, and GRRM is writing after that revolution. GRRM isn't afraid to portray women as unattractive, ambitious, intelligent - and also evil and cunning, and ultimately as diverse, complicated and layered as men are. I suppose you could say the difference is most notable in Sansa and Arya. Sansa is a stereotypical feminine character from fantasy, Arya is the complete opposite.

GRRM said himself he has lots of female fans. I'm not surprised at all that women tend to find his story more interesting than LOTR.
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You left out Luthien when you mentioned the silmarillion. Tolkiens greatest female hero.
 
Yeah Dany has been the most annoying character in the series for a long time. The fifth book was generally poor all round. Next book needs to be excellent or this epic he has created will end up a massive waste after the brilliance of the first three.
 
I find myself skipping the Dany chapters, the 'I'm just a little girl' gambit amused me and the unsullied bits were pretty cool, but we've meandered a few hundred pages since then.

The whole slaves cities bit was just a giant cluster feck that seems never ending, all these blokes throwing themselves all over her, is bordering on funny, the one she decided to marry made the least amount of sense. We've established she's pretty crafty that seemed like a total dead end and a bit of a daft move and it proved to be. If she'd listened to the Bear, we'd be a lot further along story wise, so he was right, for all the good it did him.

The coolest part of her is that she is the mother of dragon's, but up until recently she's spent maybe 3 pages in 4 books with them. She's just so massively disconnected with the rest of the story it's hard to pay attention at times, with The Bear and Tyrion so close, I hope in the 6th book, when I read it in 2018 she will finally be on the trail of Westeros.
 
shaggy said:
Yeah Dany has been the most annoying character in the series for a long time. The fifth book was generally poor all round. Next book needs to be excellent or this epic he has created will end up a massive waste after the brilliance of the first three.
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I think Dance with Dragons has been better than Feast for Crows, which really suffered from having no Tyrion, not much Jon Snow and far too much Cersei - as well as being too slow-moving. However, it was nowhere near as good as Storm of Swords - which is by far the best book of the series so far imo. Fantastic book.

I don't think Dany is the most annoying character, I quite like her, but her storylines have been annoying for a while now. I wish she'd just go back to Westeros. I hope she's the 'younger and more beautiful Queen' who usurps Cersei, but something tells me that might actually be Sansa.
 
I really liked AFFC. I could read about Jaime and Brienne trawling through the Riverlands all day.
 
MG said:
I think Dance with Dragons has been better than Feast for Crows, which really suffered from having no Tyrion, not much Jon Snow and far too much Cersei - as well as being too slow-moving. However, it was nowhere near as good as Storm of Swords - which is by far the best book of the series so far imo. Fantastic book.

I don't think Dany is the most annoying character, I quite like her, but her storylines have been annoying for a while now. I wish she'd just go back to Westeros. I hope she's the 'younger and more beautiful Queen' who usurps Cersei, but something tells me that might actually be Sansa.
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I didn't mind the fourth book, strangely, but that may have been because I read it immediately after the previous three, and so it could have been filled with anything and I'd still have read it in no time at all. Couldn't even finish the fifth, was just so dull and poorly written. Not sure if Martin even knows himself at the moment what he has planned for the characters to be honest!
 
Solius said:
I really liked AFFC. I could read about Jaime and Brienne trawling through the Riverlands all day.
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I loved the Jaime and Brienne bits from Storm of Swords. It was mainly Brienne on her own in FFC wasn't it?

Jaime and Brienne are great in the books and from the looks of things the TV series is doing their travels together really well - the stuff from the end of series 2 between the two of them is looking good so far.
 
Except they made Jaime kill Cleos, making him a Kinslayer. Completely changes who he is.
 
They merged a few characters together to save time in the show, I thought that was a better scene in the TV show than in the book tbh.

He's already the Kingslayer, Kin slaying barely registers in his list of crimes, I don't think it alters his character dramatically he's always been about his family, him free is worth some no mark Lannister.
 
Except in the books Kinslaying is seen as pretty much the worst thing you can do.
 
Solius said:
Except in the books Kinslaying is seen as pretty much the worst thing you can do.
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I think Kingslaying is considered worse actually.

Your family are important, but in a absolute monarchy (with all that divine right of kings stuff - which Westeros holds to, being a religious place), your King is the most important thing of all.

Stannis says it at one point - if you're under oath from someone, you continue to serve them, no matter how bad they might be, which is why rebellion is always considered wrong. That's why he felt so much difficulty in rebelling against Aerys for his brother. It's what Ser Barristan speaks about - and why he goes to serve Dany. And that's why Jaime is held in contempt by so much of Westeros for killing Aerys; 'Kingslayer' is a really derogatory nickname to have.
 
I always found that retarded considering how bat-shit crazy the King was, they weren't rebelling to give him more hugs, he was going to die anyway Jamie just saved everyone a lot of time and bloodshed and he is reviled for it.

I'd have loved there to be a bit more on that whole episode but the amount of people that were there is dwindling quickly.
 
I'm sure Kinslaying is still seen as worse.

Regardless, Jaime had to kill Aerys. I don't know why they added him killing Cleos in the show. It could have been written much differently. The only time Jaime was probably wrong in trying to kill someone was pushing Bran out of the window, and that was to protect Cersei. He's not really a cold blooded killer.
 
Solius said:
I'm sure Kinslaying is still seen as worse.

Regardless, Jaime had to kill Aerys. I don't know why they added him killing Cleos in the show. It could have been written much differently. The only time Jaime was probably wrong in trying to kill someone was pushing Bran out of the window, and that was to protect Cersei. He's not really a cold blooded killer.
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He totally is.

He's a borderline sociopath, he'd murder anyone if it suited his goals.
 
He's never murdered unless he's been forced to though really. The odd exception but with his whole redemption arc he's not exactly a Gregor Clegane.
 
Solius said:
I'm sure Kinslaying is still seen as worse.

Regardless, Jaime had to kill Aerys. I don't know why they added him killing Cleos in the show. It could have been written much differently. The only time Jaime was probably wrong in trying to kill someone was pushing Bran out of the window, and that was to protect Cersei. He's not really a cold blooded killer.
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Precisely, for HBO to write that into the show goes totally against Jaime's character development. It's going to be much for difficult for them to convince the non-book-reading audience into believing the turn-around that will come in S3.
 
Solius said:
I'm sure Kinslaying is still seen as worse.

Regardless, Jaime had to kill Aerys. I don't know why they added him killing Cleos in the show. It could have been written much differently. The only time Jaime was probably wrong in trying to kill someone was pushing Bran out of the window, and that was to protect Cersei. He's not really a cold blooded killer.
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He's very much so a cold blooded killer. He's killed sooo many people and he's trained to not even hesitate. I think his chapters are Stockholm Syndroming you. He's not a good guy, he's a charmer. Like many serial killers are.

Very good character for a book, he's one of the characters I like the most.
 
His enemies. Who has he killed that he didn't have to? He's clearly got a redemption arc going anyway especially with him caring for Brienne and saving her from the bear pit.
 
Just because you're a cold blooded killer doesn't mean you can't care for someone. He sure tried to kill Brienne. How would it have turned out for him if he did?
 
Lastwolf said:
I always found that retarded considering how bat-shit crazy the King was, they weren't rebelling to give him more hugs, he was going to die anyway Jamie just saved everyone a lot of time and bloodshed and he is reviled for it.

I'd have loved there to be a bit more on that whole episode but the amount of people that were there is dwindling quickly.
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It's not that he killed the King, but that he was a member of the Kingsguard - a sacerdotal institution - and killed the King he was sworn to protect with his life. Even after Aery's overthrow, the leader of the Kingsguard refused to surrender and chose death.
 
Solius said:
I'm sure Kinslaying is still seen as worse.

Regardless, Jaime had to kill Aerys. I don't know why they added him killing Cleos in the show. It could have been written much differently. The only time Jaime was probably wrong in trying to kill someone was pushing Bran out of the window, and that was to protect Cersei. He's not really a cold blooded killer.
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Yeah he did have to kill Aerys, to save everyone from getting set on fire which is what Aerys wanted to do. Pushing Bran out the window is indefensible really - pushing a child out a high building to kill them is wrong, no matter who he was trying to protect.

I don't think Jaime is as bad as Cersei and definitely not as Joffrey - he did save Brienne several times - but he aint really a nice guy either.

Will Absolute said:
It's not that he killed the King, but that he was a member of the Kingsguard - a sacerdotal institution - and killed the King he was sworn to protect with his life. Even after Aery's overthrow, the leader of the Kingsguard refused to surrender and chose death.
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This. Jaime was right in saying he did it to protect everyone - Aerys wanted to set fire to the whole city and kill everyone - but as a member of the Kingsguard, he swore an oath to always protect the King, with his life and to the death. The other members of the Kingsguard fought for Aerys to the bitter end (Ser Barristan etc), because they were under oath to. Westerosi take that oath shit very seriously.
 
Oh, and whilst reading I came up with a wild theory that Jon Snow could possibly be the son of Rhaegar Targareyn and Lyanna Stark. I then went on the internet and saw loads of other people were suggesting it as well!

I couldn't believe it, I just thought it was me picking wild things out of nowhere and no one else would agree.
 
Snow said:
Just because you're a cold blooded killer doesn't mean you can't care for someone. He sure tried to kill Brienne. How would it have turned out for him if he did?
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Have you read any Joe Abercrombie? Martin is a big fan apparently. I ask because Joe created a character with an incredible amount of blood on his hands who does just come across as a loveable rogue.
 
Like Pete Bondurant in Ellroy's 'American Underworld' series of books.
 
MG said:
Oh, and whilst reading I came up with a wild theory that Jon Snow could possibly be the son of Rhaegar Targareyn and Lyanna Stark. I then went on the internet and saw loads of other people were suggesting it as well!

I couldn't believe it, I just thought it was me picking wild things out of nowhere and no one else would agree.
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I think that's basically the consensus at this point. I finished the fifth book in the summer and haven't gone back since so my memory is hazy, but it started to seem rather obvious after awhile.
 
Nearco said:
Have you read any Joe Abercrombie? Martin is a big fan apparently. I ask because Joe created a character with an incredible amount of blood on his hands who does just come across as a loveable rogue.
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Haven't read Abercrombie no. He sounds like the character Zevran in the Dragon Age: Origins game.
 
MG said:
Oh, and whilst reading I came up with a wild theory that Jon Snow could possibly be the son of Rhaegar Targareyn and Lyanna Stark. I then went on the internet and saw loads of other people were suggesting it as well!

I couldn't believe it, I just thought it was me picking wild things out of nowhere and no one else would agree.
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Heh, yeah it's probably the biggest theory out there. I'd say this was Martin's original plan back in the 90's but then the internet came along and now everyone thinks this will be the case, so he'll probably back out and do something else instead. I thought Jon would be Azar Ahai reborn, especially given what happened at the end of the last book.
 
It's a theory that's grown in popularity over the internet, Jon's parentage is one of those often speculated things, the number of people who could know and are still alive is pretty small right.

I think it's too much of a telegraphed punch by now, it doesn't seem Martin's style.
 
Lastwolf said:
It's a theory that's grown in popularity over the internet, Jon's parentage is one of those often speculated things, the number of people who could know and are still alive is pretty small right.

I think it's too much of a telegraphed punch by now, it doesn't seem Martin's style.
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Isn't it just Howland Reed? Well he's the only person still alive that was at The Tower Of Joy.
 
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