Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?

That was all horse related though. Don't meet the Dothraki on an open field because they are superior horse riders. Drogo is at the top of the Dothraki tree, Westeros is very different. I wouldn't fancy him one on one with any of the others.
He looks much more agile than Hound or the Mountain while being almost as large as them.

Barristan and Dayne at their peak would have destroyed him, by virtue of essentially being demigods (though Barristan got wounded in the Battle of Trident), but Drogo can defeat any of the others.
 
Jon, Brienne and Bronn in the books are nowhere near the elite fighters, while in the show Jon is obviously No. 1.

In the books (not counting people from Essos cause totally different style and we don't know how they match against Westerosi) :

1) Ser Arthur Dayne
2) Ser Barristan Selmy
3) Robert Baratheon
4) Ser Jaime Lannister
5) Prince Oberyn Martell
6) Sandor Clegane
7) Ser Gregor Clegane

Dunno about the final 3 positions, but the likes of Victarion, Greatjon, Royce, Garland and that bodyguard of Prince Doren might be there.

Dunno if Jon is nr. 1 Obviously Ramseys thing where he said "that the rumours go that he is finest swordsman in the 7 kingdoms". Obviously in the show Jon is the warrior hero, I just wonder how many elite enemies he killed. There was that traitor something i fought in a hut in the north.

The halfhand he fougth wanted to die to further the cause. Of course Jon also killed a whitewalker. Obviously in screen time Jon has the battles, so I guess he could be nr 1, but I don't think he'd have a chance against Oberyn or Jaime Lannister.
 
Dunno if Jon is nr. 1 Obviously Ramseys thing where he said "that the rumours go that he is finest swordsman in the 7 kingdoms". Obviously in the show Jon is the warrior hero, I just wonder how many elite enemies he killed. There was that traitor something i fought in a hut in the north.

The halfhand he fougth wanted to die to further the cause. Of course Jon also killed a whitewalker. Obviously in screen time Jon has the battles, so I guess he could be nr 1, but I don't think he'd have a chance against Oberyn or Jaime Lannister.
In the show, he kills the first WW in the fifth season, and then effortlessly kills another one in the seventh season. He is an one man army in the Battle of Bastards, effortlessly defeats Ramsey. In the last episode he was killing Lannisters soldiers without even trying. He also defeated one of the strongest (possibly second only to Torrmund) wildling.

Yes, Halfhand let Jon kill him, and yes he lost against the leader of the mutiny in the fourth season, but since then the writers have made him a young Arthur Dayne.

In the books, he ain't a special fighter at all. The likes of Jaime at his prime would defeat him with his left hand while taking a piss with his right.
 
He looks much more agile than Hound or the Mountain while being almost as large as them.

Barristan and Dayne at their peak would have destroyed him, by virtue of essentially being demigods (though Barristan got wounded in the Battle of Trident), but Drogo can defeat any of the others.
Most of them have armour and long swords though. He might be agile, but he's a huge target that's not wearing armour. Trying to get through someone like Jaime's armour with a Dothraki sword while you yourself have no armour is likely to get you sliced to pieces in my eyes.
 
That was all horse related though. Don't meet the Dothraki on an open field because they are superior horse riders. Drogo is at the top of the Dothraki tree, Westeros is very different. I wouldn't fancy him one on one with any of the others.
Got to side with shamana. Not only were every Dothraki soldier trained rigorously from small children, like the Nomad hordes of reality they could ride before they could walk. Also, with a Viking like mentality ingrained, a laissez-faire attitude to death, even embracing it as glory, they are far superior fighters to 99% of the Westerosi.
 
I wonder how he is going to deal with the dragons in the books because on paper no-one really has a solid counter to them. Noticed in my current re-read of ADwD there's even a specific bit in a Tyrion or Barristan chapter where it's specifically referenced how useless scorpions would be against a dragon unless they got 'em straight through the eye. So in the show we have two things which can kill dragons - the Night King, who doesn't exist in the book universe, and scorpions, which are apparently ineffective in the book universe.

With that in mind, the only real limiting factor to the dragons is the morality of the person who controls them, or perhaps their ability to keep them under control, or something supernatural which we haven't seen yet.
 
General comment. I want to read the books!

But I don't want to start unless there's evidence that GRRM will finish the final 2.

Is he likely to finish the final 2 books? What's the Caf think?
 
I wonder how he is going to deal with the dragons in the books because on paper no-one really has a solid counter to them. Noticed in my current re-read of ADwD there's even a specific bit in a Tyrion or Barristan chapter where it's specifically referenced how useless scorpions would be against a dragon unless they got 'em straight through the eye. So in the show we have two things which can kill dragons - the Night King, who doesn't exist in the book universe, and scorpions, which are apparently ineffective in the book universe.

With that in mind, the only real limiting factor to the dragons is the morality of the person who controls them, or perhaps their ability to keep them under control, or something supernatural which we haven't seen yet.
Aegon had like 2000 soldiers when he invaded Westeros, and easily defeated the other kings. So yeah, Dragons are close to invincible.

Saying that, Dorne actually killed the dragon of his younger sister-wife, so while close to invincible, they can still be killed. And all three of those dragons were quite bigger than Drogon.

My bet is that Euron/Victarion get/kill one with the Horn, and maybe the Others kill another one.
 
General comment. I want to read the books!

But I don't want to start unless there's evidence that GRRM will finish the final 2.

Is he likely to finish the final 2 books? What's the Caf think?

Not likely to finish. And to be brutally honest, the last couple were mediocre at best anyway. So I have no faith in him knowing how to end them or even fully wants to try.
 
General comment. I want to read the books!

But I don't want to start unless there's evidence that GRRM will finish the final 2.

Is he likely to finish the final 2 books? What's the Caf think?

I don't think it's likely. It took him roughly 6 years to write A Dance With Dragons, which he initially said would take a year. He's currently 8-9 years into the writing of Winds of Winter. I think Winds of Winter will come out, but I doubt Dream of Spring will ever be finished - another 8-9 years would take him into his late 70s or early 80s.
 
Not likely to finish. And to be brutally honest, the last couple were mediocre at best anyway. So I have no faith in him knowing how to end them or even fully wants to try.
Only compared with the first three. They (especially 'A Dance') are still better than almost any fantasy book right there.
 
Thanks for the responses!

That's a shame. So sounds like 6 of 7 will be finished. Which means the weakest GoT television series (season 8) will be the "book of record" for the story, which is a shame. I still might give them a read.
 
Not likely to finish. And to be brutally honest, the last couple were mediocre at best anyway. So I have no faith in him knowing how to end them or even fully wants to try.
How does the storytelling and writing in the mediocre books compare to that of the show? Superior still? Or poor by all accounts?
 
Aegon had like 2000 soldiers when he invaded Westeros, and easily defeated the other kings. So yeah, Dragons are close to invincible.

Saying that, Dorne actually killed the dragon of his younger sister-wife, so while close to invincible, they can still be killed. And all three of those dragons were quite bigger than Drogon.

My bet is that Euron/Victarion get/kill one with the Horn, and maybe the Others kill another one.

Dorne killed that dragon by hitting it straight through the eye with a scorpion. I believe canonically that's the only way a big one has ever died violently which didn't involve another dragon.

I think you're probably right, Dragonbinder turning one (which then dies at the hands of the other two?) and one going down in the war against the Others sounds feasible.
 
Dorne killed that dragon by hitting it straight through the eye with a scorpion. I believe canonically that's the only way a big one has ever died violently which didn't involve another dragon.

I think you're probably right, Dragonbinder turning one (which then dies at the hands of the other two?) and one going down in the war against the Others sounds feasible.
Yeah, I don't remember any other Dragon being killed purely by humans. Saying that, Dany's dragons would be considered small dragons if they were 200 years before. She has to flee with Drogon in Meeren for the fear of him getting killed.
 
Only compared with the first three. They (especially 'A Dance') are still better than almost any fantasy book right there.

Yeah, I can imagine that. I just tend to think he's a great world and character builder, but story wise it seems to have gotten away from him. And now rather than get help and work on the world, he's gone all Nemo seagull...mine mine mine.


How does the storytelling and writing in the mediocre books compare to that of the show? Superior still? Or poor by all accounts?

Miles better still. D&D aren't story writers, their strength was always in the adaptation and that is what they they are genuinely good at. However, they could never compare or even attempt to try to match the depth of the books.

Don't get me wrong, they are still fine reads, but they ARE definitely heading in the wrong direction, and the time it's taken to get the next one out speaks for itself and the kind of quality we can expect.
 
Wow, just read the publication history. It reminds me of the type of procrastination I would do when writing a uni paper, except this is taken to the extreme:
Publication history
Martin believes the last two volumes of the series will be massive works of 1,500+ manuscript pages each.[1] He does not intend to separate characters by geography again, as he was forced to do because of the unpublishable length of A Feast for Crows'original manuscript. But, as Martin stated in a 2011 interview, "Three years from now when I'm sitting on 1,800 pages of manuscript with no end in sight, who the hell knows".[39] In 2018, he revealed that some of his publishers had suggested splitting The Winds of Winterinto two books but that he was against it.[40]

In April 2011, shortly before the publication of A Dance with Dragons which took him six years to write, Martin hoped that "the last two books will go a little quicker than this one has" and estimated that it would take "three years to finish the next one at a good pace".[41][42] By October 2012, 400 pages of the sixth novel had been written, although Martin considered only the first 200 as "really finished", the rest still needing revisions.[43] In April 2013, Martin estimated that he had a quarter of the book.[44] In the past, Martin has angered some of his fan base for repeatedly estimating his publication dates too optimistically; therefore, he has refrained from making hard estimates for The Winds of Winter's final release date.[3]

In 2014, Martin's UK publisher, Jane Johnson, stated that the book would not be published before, or in, 2015.[45][46] In April 2015, Martin commented along the same lines[47] but he also said he would like to have it published before the sixth season of the HBO series Game of Thrones (which would cover material from the book) aired in 2016.[48][49] In Autumn 2015, statements made by the Spanish editor and the Polish translator of the novel indicated that it was expected to be published in 2016.[50][51][52][53]

In early January 2016, Martin confirmed that he had not met an end-of-year deadline that he had established with his publisher for release of the book before the sixth season of the HBO show. He added that there was "a lot still left to write" and that completion of the book was "months away still... if the writing goes well". Martin also revealed there had been a previous deadline of October 2015 that he had considered achievable in May 2015, and that in September 2015 he had still considered the end-of-year deadline achievable. He further confirmed that some of the plot of the book might be revealed in the upcoming season of Game of Thrones[54] but one of the showrunners, David Benioff, claimed that while certain key elements would be the same, the show would diverge from the book in many respects.[55] In February 2016, Martin stated that he had dropped all his editing projects except for Wild Cards, and that he would not be writing any teleplays, screenplays, short stories, introductions or forewords before delivering The Winds of Winter.[56]

In 2017, Martin believed that The Winds of Winter would be released that same year. However, he also noted that he had believed the same thing would occur the previous year,[57][58][37] and later that year he confirmed he was "still months away" from finishing the book, indicating it may not be published until 2018 or later, with Fire & Blood, the book on the history of House Targaryen, possibly preceding it.[59] In April 2018, Martin confirmed on his blog that Fire & Blood would be published November 20, 2018, and The Winds of Winter would not be published in 2018.[60] Later, Martin indicated that Fire & Blood was the book his publisher wanted next.[61] Since then, he has confirmed at least four times that he is continuing work on The Winds of Winter.[62][63][64][65] In April 2019, Martin commented in an interview that the writing "has been going very well lately".[66]


On a positive, as of last month Martin said that the writing "has been going very well lately"...:lol:
 
Wow, just read the publication history. It reminds me of the type of procrastination I would do when writing a uni paper, except this is taken to the extreme:
Publication history
Martin believes the last two volumes of the series will be massive works of 1,500+ manuscript pages each.[1] He does not intend to separate characters by geography again, as he was forced to do because of the unpublishable length of A Feast for Crows'original manuscript. But, as Martin stated in a 2011 interview, "Three years from now when I'm sitting on 1,800 pages of manuscript with no end in sight, who the hell knows".[39] In 2018, he revealed that some of his publishers had suggested splitting The Winds of Winterinto two books but that he was against it.[40]

In April 2011, shortly before the publication of A Dance with Dragons which took him six years to write, Martin hoped that "the last two books will go a little quicker than this one has" and estimated that it would take "three years to finish the next one at a good pace".[41][42] By October 2012, 400 pages of the sixth novel had been written, although Martin considered only the first 200 as "really finished", the rest still needing revisions.[43] In April 2013, Martin estimated that he had a quarter of the book.[44] In the past, Martin has angered some of his fan base for repeatedly estimating his publication dates too optimistically; therefore, he has refrained from making hard estimates for The Winds of Winter's final release date.[3]

In 2014, Martin's UK publisher, Jane Johnson, stated that the book would not be published before, or in, 2015.[45][46] In April 2015, Martin commented along the same lines[47] but he also said he would like to have it published before the sixth season of the HBO series Game of Thrones (which would cover material from the book) aired in 2016.[48][49] In Autumn 2015, statements made by the Spanish editor and the Polish translator of the novel indicated that it was expected to be published in 2016.[50][51][52][53]

In early January 2016, Martin confirmed that he had not met an end-of-year deadline that he had established with his publisher for release of the book before the sixth season of the HBO show. He added that there was "a lot still left to write" and that completion of the book was "months away still... if the writing goes well". Martin also revealed there had been a previous deadline of October 2015 that he had considered achievable in May 2015, and that in September 2015 he had still considered the end-of-year deadline achievable. He further confirmed that some of the plot of the book might be revealed in the upcoming season of Game of Thrones[54] but one of the showrunners, David Benioff, claimed that while certain key elements would be the same, the show would diverge from the book in many respects.[55] In February 2016, Martin stated that he had dropped all his editing projects except for Wild Cards, and that he would not be writing any teleplays, screenplays, short stories, introductions or forewords before delivering The Winds of Winter.[56]

In 2017, Martin believed that The Winds of Winter would be released that same year. However, he also noted that he had believed the same thing would occur the previous year,[57][58][37] and later that year he confirmed he was "still months away" from finishing the book, indicating it may not be published until 2018 or later, with Fire & Blood, the book on the history of House Targaryen, possibly preceding it.[59] In April 2018, Martin confirmed on his blog that Fire & Blood would be published November 20, 2018, and The Winds of Winter would not be published in 2018.[60] Later, Martin indicated that Fire & Blood was the book his publisher wanted next.[61] Since then, he has confirmed at least four times that he is continuing work on The Winds of Winter.[62][63][64][65] In April 2019, Martin commented in an interview that the writing "has been going very well lately".[66]


[
/SPOILER]

On a positive, as of last month Martin said that the writing "has been going very well lately"...:lol:

11 chapters of Winds have been made public.
 
How does the storytelling and writing in the mediocre books compare to that of the show? Superior still? Or poor by all accounts?

The last two books have some of my favorite writing in the entire series. But they don’t lend themselves so easily to TV adaption. There are less WTF moments, a lot of new characters and plots introduced, and a lot more contemplative passages digging deep into the history of that world and the aftershocks of the War of the Five Kings. I enjoy them more with each read - some of the character development is outstanding - but can totally see why some don’t like them that much.

Season 5 and parts of season 6 were based on the last two books.
 
The last two books have some of my favorite writing in the entire series. But they don’t lend themselves so easily to TV adaption. There are less WTF moments, a lot of new characters and plots introduced, and a lot more contemplative passages digging deep into the history of that world and the aftershocks of the War of the Five Kings. I enjoy them more with each read - some of the character development is outstanding - but can totally see why some don’t like them that much.

Season 5 and parts of season 6 were based on the last two books.

That's a good summary you've given on the last 2 books. I think people's ultimate view on them will depend on how they fit into the series as a whole. I think they set things up nicely for what is to come. I'm not saying they are all set up though. Like you, I think they get better with re-reading, especially AFFC.
Probably setting myself up for disappointment, but I'm seriously expecting an announcement on the next books release in the days following the TV shows conclusion.
 
Thanks for the responses!

That's a shame. So sounds like 6 of 7 will be finished. Which means the weakest GoT television series (season 8) will be the "book of record" for the story, which is a shame. I still might give them a read.
I wouldn't count the show's ending as any sort of ending to the books. Even if they won't be finished they are still well worth reading, most of the big twists have been spoiled by the show but there's still so much it's left out and characters are so different that it's still worth it. They are great books.

Just forget all about Night's Kings and all that.
 
How does the storytelling and writing in the mediocre books compare to that of the show? Superior still? Or poor by all accounts?

I think the storytelling is good throughout, the depth and scale is incredible, the POV characters are clearly motivated and generally quite reliable, in the sense that no-one does anything hugely out-of-character for plot purposes, which means it all flows very logically and the twists feel like they've been earnt. This is one of the reasons most book-readers reckon the next two books will likely bear little resemblance to the last two seasons of the show.

The issue I think many have with GRRM's writing is that there are so many many story strands which don't appear to be furthering the larger plot and a stream of new POV characters whose chapters don't directly relate to any character you've previously built an affinity for. Whilst I personally love the depth of it, I can understand why people get frustrated when seemingly a huge amount of time is being spent crafting the arcs of seemingly minor characters when it's looking increasingly likely we'll never find out who ends up on the Iron Throne, or who rules Winterfell etc.
 
Thought that it was fine, all things of the previous episodes considering. Dany had to continue being mad (ironically, Emilia Clarke did the best job in the season as Mad Dany), Jon had to kill her, and some resolution needed to happen.

Loved the Jaime bits, both Tyrion finding him, and Brianne finishing his entry in the books.

Jon won't get another girlfriend, I think. Third time is the charm and all that, but it will end tragically.

Also, in the office we had a competition going all season long about predictions and crashed the others. First time I beat my boss in any game, she is very good at everything, so I am gonna annoy her tomorrow.
 
I started book 1 but wasn’t a fan. Think I remembered the show too much when reading. Think I’ll wait a few years, maybe by then all the books will be finished and start reading them all.
 
Well, GRRM is "working on WINDS… which, let me add once more, has NOT been finished and hidden away for years."


http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/19/more-stuff-more-nonsense/

The man is truly infuriating. The book really seems to be at the bottom of his priority list.
I started book 1 but wasn’t a fan. Think I remembered the show too much when reading. Think I’ll wait a few years, maybe by then all the books will be finished and start reading them all.

Oh how naive
 
I finished the books before the show started, so was really invested in the story. I think the broad strokes of the ending in the show were actually okay, but the execution was shite. Hopefully he can sort that out, if he bothers to finish them.
 
He's producing 8 Television shows? Wtf? That book is never coming out.
 
And me? I’m still here, and I’m still busy. As a producer, I’ve got five shows in development at HBO (some having nothing whatsoever to do with the world of Westeros), two at Hulu, one on the History Channel. I’m involved with a number of feature projects, some based upon my own stories and books, some on material created by others. There are these short films I am hoping to make, adaptations of classic stories by one of the most brilliant, quirky, and original writers our genre has ever produced. I’ve consulted on a video game out of Japan. And then there’s Meow Wolf…

And I’m writing. Winter is coming, I told you, long ago… and so it is. THE WINDS OF WINTER is very late, I know, I know, but it will be done. I won’t say when, I’ve tried that before, only to burn you all and jinx myself… but I will finish it, and then will come A DREAM OF SPRING.

:lol: Can't do anything but laugh now.
 
I thought no-one would reach my levels of procrastination from back in college but this fecker is the poster boy for it.

The fat feck better finish his books. I really want to know the proper ending he had in mind.

Knowing that this is the ending for all the major characters has sapped a lot of my enthusiasm for the final two books if they ever happen. People say the journey matters more than the destination but it just isn't the same knowing where all the major chess pieces will fall.

I hope he just told lies to D&D and does his own thing.