They wasted pretty much the whole of the 5th season trying to stretch ADwD into 2 seasons.
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
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Again i think they want to follow the book, at the start, but realising later that grr martin didnt have any sort of ending in sight and keeps on adding layers and layers of plot.
They should start to kill more characters in season 4 - 6 and focus on the remaining.
But i understand the difficulty dnd faced, those actors and actresses getting edgy and more expensive and older by the season. This sort of mess needs a massive dose of deus ex machina to wrap up. The only way i can see they wrap it beautifully is commissioning anothet 3-4 season but that aint realistic
The point is you said they needed to butcher Sansa’s storyline because by s06 there would be only 2 seasons left, while they wasted pretty much the whole of season 5, by choice, with a stupid Dorne story.
If they have been given the rough outline of the story, including the ending, as we are led to believe, they could’ve easily build up some sort of intrigue for Sansa to be involved in in 4th and 5th, having her willingly participate in that Jeyne Poole storyline only for it to blow up on her face due to Ramsay’s insanity. People aren’t pissed with the direction taken, but there’s no explanation, no progression, no pay off. One second she looked like becoming a player and the next she was meekly sold off to the Boltons, and as discussed above, it makes no sense even in show-world because she was still an attainted traitor wanted for regicide and the Boltons’s legitimacy comes from the Lannisters. Some kind of backroom dealing between the factions involved could have solved that problem and present a better viewing experience.
Someone on Twitter made a good point, the fifth/sixth seasons should have had the common theme of the Stark children in training - Bran learning magic with the Three-Eyed Raven, Arya learning to be an assassin in Bravos, and Sansa in the Vale learning politics from Littlefinger. Also Jon learning leadership at the wall. Instead they basically re-set Sansa's arc, so we got another season of her being brutalized for no apparent reason when they could have used someone like Ros for that role (if they hadn't needlessly killed her off already). Really poor way to go about it, I think the writers just had no interest in Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons, and no interest in making the Iron Islands, Dorne and the Vale in any way interesting.
I'm not worried about it spoiling the books any more. Partly because the books are never coming and partly because it's so random I'm never going to remember half this shit anyway. People just popping up everywhere like it's whack a mole, yet it's perfectly safe to go flying around in the north because The Nights King(who everyone seems to know is The Night's King) doesn't have magical travel powers and he moves at the speed of Mata. It's just pretty nonsense.
Not sure if anyone has read any of the sample chapters for Winds of Winter but watching that episode made me laugh.
Compare the most recent sample chapter that Martin read to the dross that was served up in that episode.. christ
Compare the most recent sample chapter that Martin read to the dross that was served up in that episode.. christ
The Damphair chapter compared to Asha/Yara Euron scene
The Cersei - Euron dynamic in the show is pretty bad too.
The show has a weird inclination towards portraying Cersei as some kind of evil mastermind whereas in the books, she is a failed ruler whose allies quickly desert her as soon as trouble is looming and they realize she is a pretty face who is otherwise hilariously incompetent. She is basically the Donald Trump of Westeros.
Euron on the other hand is being showcased as loudmouth and arrogant but in the books he is seriously diabolical. If he is left in Cersei's presence for 10 minutes he would probably rape, kill and torture her in 5 and spend the rest laughing about it.
The show has a weird inclination towards portraying Cersei as some kind of evil mastermind whereas in the books, she is a failed ruler whose allies quickly desert her as soon as trouble is looming and they realize she is a pretty face who is otherwise hilariously incompetent. She is basically the Donald Trump of Westeros.
Euron on the other hand is being showcased as loudmouth and arrogant but in the books he is seriously diabolical. If he is left in Cersei's presence for 10 minutes he would probably rape, kill and torture her in 5 and spend the rest laughing about it.
Weird, that's pretty much how I've seen her in the show. Except they get pushed away by her crazy ass rather than just leaving at the first sight at trouble willingly.
What the show has done with Euron is unforgivable.
In the books she spends half her time flirting with the guy she makes her naval commander and ignoring pressing concerns in the governance. She wouldn't be half competent enough to give Euron of all people the run around and getting him to bring her the golden company.
Guess the point was just seduction, whether done by active manipulation (assumed in the books, she could be genuinely fawning as well) versus just the important bit being Eurons motivation of wanting her being showed as in the show.
I think in the books she's much more desperate, incompetent and quite frankly mental, whereas in the show she's an arch villain. Lena Headey nails everything though, no matter what she's given to work with she is the best thing on screen when she's on.
It's just some character they made up using Euron's name. Euron in the books is an evil mystical weirdo that might sacrifice you to strange gods. In the show he's just a dickhead. I don't think book Euron could have worked in the context of the show anyway and I don't think he works at all without the contrast of Victarion and seeing him through his eyes. I think portraying those two actual characters may have been a bit of a nightmare on screen with how little time they would have got.
So instead they Dorne'd the Iron Islands.
Yeah I think book Euron could have potentially been great on screen - he’s a seriously dark, sinister and mysterious figure into all kinds of ill shit like you say - but not with these writers, who clearly had no interest in him at all.
Such a shame, with better writers some of the new characters that Martin introduced in Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons could have been fleshed out and really co tributes to the show.
Aye, and in a way you feel as if they're almost tacitly endorsing Cersei's behaviour. The books make it clear that her evil psychopathy and her inability to empathise with other people or set aside her own grievances when making decisions is what makes her a fairly shite politician as well as the person, but you feel like the show has this vaguely uncomfortable notion that her brutality is actually quite admirable and necessary. Which misses the point entirely.
He's maybe too much of a villain for the show at this point, he'd be a bigger threat than Cersei if he was the book version. He might not fit in an ensemble show at all. Even in the books he's a bit of an outlier. I think we should have got a hell of a lot better than the one they provided, but I don't think they could have done the book version justice if they tried.
I'm still salty about Arriane and Val being removed.
I can see why they toned down Euron's most diabolical elements ever so slightly, but then a more surrealist approach to the show would've perhaps been more interesting and bold to a certain extent.
Cutting certain aspects of AFFC and ADWD was logical, but if they were going to introduce Dorne and the Iron Islands they should've done them properly. I wouldn't have even been against both plots being introduced earlier in Season 4, since they stretched ASOS over two seasons. Euron's meant to murder Balon in that timeframe anyway. And since we aren't restricted to a select few POV's in the show we could've perhaps had Doran introduced before Oberyn went to KL etc.
For me the fundamental problem is that the writers just didn't plan properly beyond the Red Wedding at all. They admitted that it was the big moment they always wanted to reach. They got away with it in Season 4 because the source material they used remained strong, but you could always see there were some problems emerging in regards to pacing and writing. It became a lot more obvious after that.
Although I thought last night was alright and far better than the last few episodes of Season 7, so if nothing else it'll still be solid entertainment.
@Art Vandelay nailed it, in the show Euron is just a dickhead.
Cutting Arianne was weird because she's quite clearly the most interesting of the Dorne characters in AFFC along with her dad. Could've easily cut or trimmed the Sand Snakes and given her a more central role.
Val didn't need to be a huge character but would've meant we had another Wildling who wasn't Tormund, who's basically been boiled down to the only wildling in existence on the show at this point.
I think they'd have been better to cut Dorne and the Iron Islands entirely. It would have given them time to flesh other aspects out, instead they got cut down, shoehorned in and didn't work. They were just a waste of screen time that could have been used more productively in the end up.
How they portrayed Dorne was downright disastrous. Nearly all characters were sleezy and boring and it looked like they just filled airtime or said we must do something with Dorne, lets get over it.
Cutting her and going full Sand Snake is when you could see they cared more about what looked cool than characters or story telling. Dorne doesn't work without her and the Sand Snakes only work as background characters. Putting them front and centre was detrimental to everything.
Val was a humanizing aspect of the Wildlings they could really use. You're right, it's just Tormund. The Wildlings are more or less a thing that used to be in the show now. Val as their "princess" keeps them in the show without having to cast them. Also her dynamic with Melisandre and the Baratheon's was interesting.
It was like they just tried to make a bunch mini Oberyn's because he was cool without bothering to think any of it through. Apparently they changed some of the plot because they liked one of the actresses angry face and wanted to keep her around.
If it wasn't for Dorne we wouldn't have learned about the bad pussy though.
I'm sorry to jump in this thread like a parachuter. I read books long time ago, so every once in a while I need to look up for characters and events to remember what happened. 
Has there been talk here about Aegon Targaryen and him not being in the show?
Has there been talk here about Aegon Targaryen and him not being in the show?
It was cringey as fek.
Couldnt wait for it to be over, every Dorne part in every episode.
I think he is Jon in the show. At first I feared it was confirmation that his story goes nowhere in the books, but now I don't worry about it as there are so many changes.I'm sorry to jump in this thread like a parachuter. I read books long time ago, so every once in a while I need to look up for characters and events to remember what happened.
Has there been talk here about Aegon Targaryen and him not being in the show?
Yup. For long time I was critical a lot of the show cause I constantly compared it to the books and would always end up disapointed. After show totally went the other direction of the books I said fek it, why bother.
Arianne would have been great.
On top of everything else mentioned above, I think they fecked up Oldtown as well. There’s clearly loads of intriguing stuff going on there in Feast for Crows with the maesters, Marwin, the Sand Snake (can’t recall her name) and Jaqen showing up before Sam. Surely they could have made something more of all that. Totally understand leaving out the Connington/Aegon story though.
Ah anyway, just have to try enjoy what’s left. My missus hasn’t read the books and doesn’t read anything online about the show and she thinks it’s all fantastic.
On top of everything else mentioned above, I think they fecked up Oldtown as well. There’s clearly loads of intriguing stuff going on there in Feast for Crows with the maesters, Marwin, the Sand Snake (can’t recall her name) and Jaqen showing up before Sam. Surely they could have made something more of all that. Totally understand leaving out the Connington/Aegon story though.
Ah anyway, just have to try enjoy what’s left. My missus hasn’t read the books and doesn’t read anything online about the show and she thinks it’s all fantastic.
@Art Vandelay
As a show-only watcher it's a interesting read, thanks for the explanation.
As a show-only watcher it's a interesting read, thanks for the explanation.
Plots aside I was really surprised how they butchered the Jon-to-fly-the-dragon revelation. Such an (theoretically) epic moment reduced to a date scene, weird.
I'm sorry to jump in this thread like a parachuter. I read books long time ago, so every once in a while I need to look up for characters and events to remember what happened.
Has there been talk here about Aegon Targaryen and him not being in the show?
Which one? Varys own Aegon or Jon(who is actually heir to the throne).
fAegon.
It has indeed been discussed, and most were in agreement that introducing that plot so late on doesn’t quite work for the show.
Thought that was a good start. Mid-table episode, which most of the show's season premieres tend to be. No problems there.
I think we'll look back on this episode as the last chance we had to spend time with these characters before the world fell in on them, and for that reason it will age nicely.
As Varys said, "Nothing lasts", and his words will ring throughout the season.
I think we'll look back on this episode as the last chance we had to spend time with these characters before the world fell in on them, and for that reason it will age nicely.
As Varys said, "Nothing lasts", and his words will ring throughout the season.
I think this is my one overall complaint, that extending it to 59 or 60 minutes would have just given some of the character scenes a bit more room to breathe.
This is brilliant:
Ooops looks like I posted in the wrong thead - apologies.
How the f did they make it so easy for Jon to ride the dragon. Also since the night king has a dragon how are these idiots so relaxed tgey had time to go on a date
Yeah its kind of the dead have broken through the wall and they have an undead dragon they are set to destroy the whole known world. Dany and Jon "who cares let's ride dragons have sex behind the waterfall. We have all the time in the world".
Anyone feel that Jon in the books and Jon in the series are very different? For me Jon in the tv Rseries is all brawns and little brains. Obviously Jon is a warrior and a hardened veteran of the night's watch, but I always felt like Jon in books was more intelligent and cerebral than he is in the tv series. Like him charging Ramsey's army alone and by doing that loses any chance of winning. Kit harrington does the part okay, but he's nothing like my jon from the books.
Generally agree although he’s not the worst case. Book Jon is more fallible too, just has a lot more depth to him. And I’m guessing he’s gonna be very very different in the final books if they ever come.
Much of his character comes across in his internal monologues, which understandably do not translate well to screen. Much more nuanced and interesting character on page but that is true for most everyone.
So, any potential of a release soon? I would really like to get Martins true feeling about this all, he is to blame, knew the timeline, but to allow another medium to adapt your unfinished work. Unprecedented, as far as I know, and artistically, if not financially it must be a tough pill to swallow, probably adds to his lack of motivation. Own fault again though.