Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?

InfiniteBoredom said:
Last I checked, she isn't immune to a nice cock (we have to assume :wenger:)
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Well that is fine, but it's not like her to complain morning sickness

Revan said:
The more I think about it, the more I get convinced that the execution of Tarlys don't make sense for any of the characters.

Randyll: I would have appreciated more if it was an acceptance that he had done wrong by choosing the wrong side and betraying everything he believed on in order to become Warden of the South, and so causing so many deaths which result in nothing for him. A bit like the last moments of Ser Allistar Thorn. But here, he looked like he was in love with Queen Cersei, which makes no sense in whatever direction you look at. And even there, when he saw Dickon joining him, it made sense to change his mind. After all, Eddard Stark betrayed his honor to save Sansa, and Eddard was 10 times the man Randyll is.

Dickon: why, just why? Sure, his dad might have made the wrong choice and decided to live (and die) with it, but Dickon why?

Daenerys: she didn't even try to make him change his mind. She didn't even play the loyalty card (Tarly was a Targaryan loyalist during the war). And with Baratheon brothers, Tywin and Ned dead, he is the best general in Westeros. Considering that Daenerys is on desperate need of a general (Daario was superb but she left him in Essos), she could have moved heaven and earth to convince Tarly to join her. It is easy in the battle for the Iron Throne, but in a war between equals (at best), she needs all the assets she can get.

Tyrion: at least he tried, but probably could have tried harder.

Writers: at this stage, only the warriors matter, so I do not get why they killed Tarly (and the actor seemed to be doing a very good job). It is time to chop of the likes of Littlefinger, Varys and other politicians, not the likes of Tarly.

It was a lose-lose situation for everyone, and they still went for it. Is the Night King the only rational person in the show?
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Reasonable points. My only thought here is Randyl Tarly is definitely a brilliant battle commander, but his importance is overplayed, especially considering the Tyrell family has just been wiped out (in the show at least). But Dickon and Randyl Tarly dying just seems to eliminate two characters so that they don't have to be bothered anymore.
 
Revan said:
Haven't looked at the Spanish ones, but read somewhere that they are the same but much more detailed (like back in October there was like a couple of paragraphs for episode, while in the Spanish ones there is a description scene by scene and the guy talks for an hour). I didn't even know that there are translation of them.


If they just burn the dead, then it is fine.
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Do you need a PM?
 
fishfingers15 said:
Well that is fine, but it's not like her to complain morning sickness



Reasonable points. My only thought here is Randyl Tarly is definitely a brilliant battle commander, but his importance is overplayed, especially considering the Tyrell family has just been wiped out (in the show at least). But Dickon and Randyl Tarly dying just seems to eliminate two characters so that they don't have to be bothered anymore.
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If they want to make the last season right, it would be good to have some strategy displayed in the last battle. And what does Daenerys have? Gray Worm who is more like a robot rather than a general? Jon Snow who is totally stupid? That Vale lord (okay, he is alright)? Jorah Mormant who hasn't commanded anyone, ever? She should hope that Jaime switches sides, otherwise they are totally fecked. The don't have a single decent (let alone excellent) general in their side. Lord of the Rings had Aragorn who did the dirty work which allowed Frodo to succeed, Wheel of Time had Mat, Lan and the four great captains that allowed Rand to do the job. Daenerys and Jon have no-one capable as of this moment. R'hllor have mercy on them.
fishfingers15 said:
Do you need a PM?
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Nah. I guess it is fine to know what will happen, but I do not want to know the details scene by scene. I'll wait and watch it,
 
Revan said:
If they want to make the last season right, it would be good to have some strategy displayed in the last battle. And what does Daenerys have? Gray Worm who is more like a robot rather than a general? Jon Snow who is totally stupid? That Vale lord (okay, he is alright)? Jorah Mormant who hasn't commanded anyone, ever? She should hope that Jaime switches sides, otherwise they are totally fecked. The don't have a single decent (let alone excellent) general in their side. Lord of the Rings had Aragorn who did the dirty work which allowed Frodo to succeed, Wheel of Time had Mat, Lan and the four great captains that allowed Rand to do the job. Daenerys and Jon have no-one capable as of this moment. R'hllor have mercy on them.

Nah. I guess it is fine to know what will happen, but I do not want to know the details scene by scene. I'll wait and watch it,
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I've just started the first book of Wheel of Fortune, so thanks for the spoilers on that. Maybe it's show's logic of matching up the powers as Danaerys is right now on cheat mode. I'm not sure if Jaime Lannister is that much of a battle commander (at least in the books) and they are making Tyrion Lannister look like an idiot. I personally don't mind Tyrion's mistake as it probably underlines his thirst for revenge against Cersei Lannister.
 
Regarding Tarly, is his refusal to bow to someone leading "foreign savages" not in keeping with the hatred for wildlings we saw in the previous season? Less loyalty to Cersei and more being a big racist bastard. Seems the sort.

As for Dickon being stupid, well he'd hardly be the first GOT character to fall foul of that trait.
 
fishfingers15 said:
I've just started the first book of Wheel of Fortune, so thanks for the spoilers on that. Maybe it's show's logic of matching up the powers as Danaerys is right now on cheat mode. I'm not sure if Jaime Lannister is that much of a battle commander (at least in the books) and they are making Tyrion Lannister look like an idiot. I personally don't mind Tyrion's mistake as it probably underlines his thirst for revenge against Cersei Lannister.
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Sorry for that, but come on, who cares about spoilers.

About Jaime, well, he did a few interesting things so far. Getting Riverrun again, a masterstroke on getting Highgarden, he has more than proven himself. In the books, we see him leading a single battle when he lost and got captured. As far as I remember from the books, Stannis, Tarly and Robert are rated as the best generals, with Robb making a case for himself until he got chopped. Never understood why people rated Tywin that much, he was a great politician but far from a great commander. Not only Robb schooled him, but fecking Edmure defeated him.
 
Revan said:
Not if you count Baratheons as usurpers though. The entire kingdom was created by Targaryans, and there are still 2 (if not 3) Targs alive.
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I count him as legitimate. Kingdom was founded by force and he took it by force. But ultimately claim means nothing. If you can take the throne it's yours.


Revan said:
It is really ridiculous. Time consuming and most likely doesn't solve much, while she can finish the war once and for all within a day.
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The "time consuming" is my biggest issue with that mission. By far. Imo Jon leaving the North was kind of a stretch already as he saw the WW at Hardhome and had to travel to Dragonstone. He should expect to return to ruins really. Dragonstone isn't close, Hardhome is.
How does he know the WW are just waiting for the plot to get up to the point where they will attack?
Now he wants to go all the way to north of the wall and then return to KL and go back again and all that just so Cercei might support them.. I mean I don't even have a problem with the show not actually showing the people traveling but we're talking about months.
 
legolegs said:
I count him as legitimate. Kingdom was founded by force and he took it by force. But ultimately claim means nothing. If you can take the throne it's yours.



The "time consuming" is my biggest issue with that mission. By far. Imo Jon leaving the North was kind of a stretch already as he saw the WW at Hardhome and had to travel to Dragonstone. He should expect to return to ruins really. Dragonstone isn't close, Hardhome is.
How does he know the WW are just waiting for the plot to get up to the point where they will attack?
Now he wants to go all the way to north of the wall and then return to KL and go back again and all that just so Cercei might support them.. I mean I don't even have a problem with the show not actually showing the people traveling but we're talking about months.
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I guess the only explanation is that until something happens, the Others cannot pass the wall, so Jon and co. are still scheming. I thought that 'something' might be Bran coming back, but it doesn't seem so.

But yep, the plan doesn't make that much sense. This is fan fiction though (still love it), so it is alright.
 
Revan said:
I guess the only explanation is that until something happens, the Others cannot pass the wall, so Jon and co. are still scheming. I thought that 'something' might be Bran coming back, but it doesn't seem so.

But yep, the plan doesn't make that much sense. This is fan fiction though (still love it), so it is alright.
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I still keep thinking that in addition to needed some magic or maybe in place of it, they need a big muther fecker of a storm to blast Westeros to not only get through or around the wall, but to advance south beyond The North. But then gain I am probably wrong.
 
Revan said:
Sorry for that, but come on, who cares about spoilers.

About Jaime, well, he did a few interesting things so far. Getting Riverrun again, a masterstroke on getting Highgarden, he has more than proven himself. In the books, we see him leading a single battle when he lost and got captured. As far as I remember from the books, Stannis, Tarly and Robert are rated as the best generals, with Robb making a case for himself until he got chopped. Never understood why people rated Tywin that much, he was a great politician but far from a great commander. Not only Robb schooled him, but fecking Edmure defeated him.
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It's tough to differentiate book from show here. I don't think the books will ever paint Jaime as a battle commander. He won't take Riverrun or Highgarden, he is probably the best swordsman in Westeros, but now rendered half a man by his golden hand. There has been no signs in the book that he'll recover to be at least a 'good swordsman' if not the best.

In the show, they've made Jaime as a great warrior/battle commander/lover etc etc
 
Revan said:
I guess the only explanation is that until something happens, the Others cannot pass the wall, so Jon and co. are still scheming. I thought that 'something' might be Bran coming back, but it doesn't seem so.

But yep, the plan doesn't make that much sense. This is fan fiction though (still love it), so it is alright.
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Yeah I don't really have a problem with magic keeping the Others away but the thing is that Jon wouldn't really know, would he? That's kind of my problem. There are reasons why he can do what he does but imo he doesn't know that's the case so he shouldn't do it.
 
Ramshock said:
If the story was set in our world what century would you say it was set in? Id say late 17th early 18th (despite its medieval tones) as there are potatos but no guns as of yet.
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Hard to say. Guns are much older than the 17th century though.

"Around the late 14th century in Europe, smaller and portable hand-held cannons were developed, creating in effect the first smooth-bore personal firearm. In the late 15th century the Ottoman empire used firearms as part of its regular infantry." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun#History
 
Ramshock said:
If the story was set in our world what century would you say it was set in? Id say late 17th early 18th (despite its medieval tones) as there are potatos but no guns as of yet.
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25th century at least, we're still nowhere near building wormholes, while they can do effortlessly.

Being more serious, it is difficult to say, cause there are no good parallels with the real world. The technology is quite advanced (Braavos can make a large warship per day) compared to medieval, but they still do not have guns. Then you have shit like Nymera having 10 thousand ships thousands of years ago, while this just didn't happen in our world. The numbers (both in the show and in the books) are totally inconsistent to be fair, so like in Star Wars, they are better ignored.
 
fishfingers15 said:
It's tough to differentiate book from show here. I don't think the books will ever paint Jaime as a battle commander. He won't take Riverrun or Highgarden, he is probably the best swordsman in Westeros, but now rendered half a man by his golden hand. There has been no signs in the book that he'll recover to be at least a 'good swordsman' if not the best.

In the show, they've made Jaime as a great warrior/battle commander/lover etc etc
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To be fair in the books Jaime has learnt to be much more patient after his ordeal, which helped him solve the siege of Riverrun peacefully.

He's unlikely to be commanding any army though, after meeting LS.
 
Ramshock said:
If the story was set in our world what century would you say it was set in? Id say late 17th early 18th (despite its medieval tones) as there are potatos but no guns as of yet.
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Westeros is probably close to 11/12th century Europe in its social hierarchy and quality of life. Wildfire is the subtitute for gun powder but technological advancement doesnt seem to even be close to the Renaissance.

The weather cycle is similar to the same historical period as well.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Westeros is probably close to 11/12th century Europe in its social hierarchy and quality of life. Wildfire is the subtitute for gun powder but technological advancement doesnt seem to even be close to the Renaissance.

The weather cycle is similar to the same historical period as well.
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No potatoes in Europe in 11th 12th century and ship building too advanced.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Westeros is probably close to 11/12th century Europe in its social hierarchy and quality of life. Wildfire is the subtitute for gun powder but technological advancement doesnt seem to even be close to the Renaissance.

The weather cycle is similar to the same historical period as well.
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How not? Multiple regions have (or can have) thousands of ships, as I said Nymeria had 10 thousands ships (and that state had much more before they were destroyed by Valyrians), we have banks in the world which didn't exist in the 11-12th century, the Wall, and some of the castles are much more advanced than anything in Europe was back then.
 
Ramshock said:
No potatoes in Europe in 11th 12th century and ship building too advanced.
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Potatoes is just an anachronism most fantasy writers include in their works. Tolkien acknowledged that there shouldnt be any in LoTR, he included them regardless and changed them to 'taters' and tobacco 'pipe-weed'. All products of the new world.

Ship building is closer to 14c.
 
Revan said:
How not? Multiple regions have (or can have) thousands of ships, as I said Nymeria had 10 thousands ships (and that state had much more before they were destroyed by Valyrians), we have banks in the world which didn't exist in the 11-12th century, the Wall, and some of the castles are much more advanced than anything in Europe was back then.
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Then you have alehouses ran by women, which was reminiscent of the trade before men took over, basic urban development in big places like King's Landing neglected, roads turning to mud.

Most of Martin's inspiration is from the War of the Roses, which is from the 15th century. The average lifestyle of peasants depicted in the books though is closer to Europe booming period just after the Black Death.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Potatoes is just an anachronism most fantasy writers include in their works. Tolkien acknowledged that there shouldnt be any in LoTR, he included them regardless and changed them to 'taters' and tobacco 'pipe-weed'. All products of the new world.

Ship building is closer to 14c.
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the whole point was basing the story in our world history.
 
Ramshock said:
the whole point was basing the story in our world history.
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It is, you can find most of the events in the books closely resembling their real life counterparts, but part of writing a fantasy is that you have the leeway to never have to specify how everything came to be.

In the books, thousands of years passed since the First Men came when they already used steel weaponry, and nigh on a thousand year since the Andals came, yet technology remains almost static. All of that despite them having a centre of learning and science in the mould of Alexandria (The Citadel).
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
It is, you can find most of the events in the books closely resembling their real life counterparts, but part of writing a fantasy is that you have the leeway to never have to specify how everything came to be.

In the books, thousands of years passed since the First Men came when they already used steel weaponry, and nigh on a thousand year since the Andals came, yet technology remains almost static. All of that despite them having a centre of learning and science in the mould of Alexandria (The Citadel).
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I like that it is not an exact mirror of a specific age in our world, as you say it gives them a bit more leeway.

The Maester's in the book world are an odd bunch. They record and store the history of all these things, but at the same time some of the older stuff they scoff at as legend/myth. They definitely seem 'anti-magic' in the books, so that helps explain their willingness to on one hand love their archives but also discount some of what is in the archive. Which does make sense in some ways, we know from real world experiences people who chronicle events are not always the most accurate at doing so.

So as with any story, in the world GRRM created, he has given them levels of technology that fit the story he wants to tell, but left out other bits that he does not want. Story tellers prerogative when it comes to fantasy worlds especially.

Also, any connection between Valerian Steel in the books and Damascus Steel in the real world? At least perhaps the loss of Damascus Steel being the inspiration for Valerian Steel?
 
I think your criticism is way over the top @Revan Randy hated the thought of a foreigner sitting the Iron Throne. Iirc it was half of the Lannister's pitch to him. So I think it's pretty logical that he wouldn't bend the knee and completely ruin his name/legacy by switching sides for a second time in very short succession.
Dickon was drilled by his father for all his life, thus it's natural for the son to follow his lead in this, too. He didn't have much screen time, but when he spoke I got the impression that he wasn't the type to have an own agenda.
It's not like Randy didn't try to save Dickon either, maybe he should've bend the knee from our perspective, but he seemed resolved to be executed, surprised by Dickons move and everything happened quite fast. You said yourself, Eddard was 10 the man Randy was - so why can't you accept that he was the lesser man in that situation?

And regarding Dany: do we really know whether or not Randy is a genius general? After all the Targs lost during the rebellion and he got swamped by Dany as well. And even if he was, did Dany know that? The idea was also that Dany was a bit out of control at that moment (-> Varys and Tyrion discuss that at length in the EP) and last but not least: why on earth would she try to make a man who clearly hates her (cause) a leader for her troops? That really doesn't make a lot of sense.

I also don't see why they would need to kill Varys, Tyrion or even Littlefinger (aside from the fact that his arc has stalled for way too long). V and LF are the real players in the game. Varys especially has done the most to shape this story, because he had the best intelligence, he always knew what was going on at any point in time and he had the option to either thwart or allow almost all major incidents. He's like the glue that connects everything.
He had Cersei and the Lannisters at his mercy for ages, one word their incest to Robert and they would've been finished. He is the one who kept the Targaryans alive, he had the power to stop the war of the five kings in its tracks.
If anything it's Cersei who should be cut, because she has run her course, we know all she is about and unless they give her some miraculous comeback she's just going to sit in the red keep while Dany wins one battle after another.
 
Drainy said:
Why? It would be more poetic if so much chaos was caused by marrying for love- something that we take for granted.
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It doesn't fit with what we know of Lyanna in the books.

There is conversation that Ned has with Lyanna and Lyanna is not happy with here betrothal with Robert. She says that she know he has a bastard child and he will never keep to one bed. And then to have her marry a person who is already married with children doesn't fit well with the character.
 
harshad said:
I'd fecking hate it if in the books Rhaegar and Lyanna are married consensually.
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I'd be extremely surprised if it does. I think Infinite Boredom's post a page ago sums it up well:
InfiniteBoredom said:
The Annulment is nonsense because Targs practice polygamy. They stopped to appease the Faith in exchange for the latter keeping mum about their incest, but it was never officially banned. That wont be in the book. Also, I don't think divorce is a thing in Westeros. The only mention of annulment of a marriage is in Tyrion/Sansa case, and you need a council of Faith or the High Septon himself to do it, provided the marriage were never consummated.

If Aegon isn't fake then he is the true heir. Annulment doesn't make trueborn children bastards or strip away their rights.

It's just something Dumb and Dumber came up with to give Samwell something to do.
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harshad said:
It doesn't fit with what we know of Lyanna in the books.

There is conversation that Ned has with Lyanna and Lyanna is not happy with here betrothal with Robert. She says that she know he has a bastard child and he will never keep to one bed. And then to have her marry a person who is already married with children doesn't fit well with the character.
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Yeah but Rhaegar was not in the same league- running away with the love of your life is not the same as whoring. He was supposed to be a sombre and soulful person and his harp playing made her cry.
There was probably a romance between them at the Tourney of Harrenhal. Lyanna was also described as someone who does what she wants.
 
DWelbz19 said:
I'd be extremely surprised if it does. I think Infinite Boredom's post a page ago sums it up well:
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If GRRM shows that Rhaegar and Lyanna are married, then most likely it would be something like the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa. Basically, Lyanna being forced to marry Rhaegar against her wishes.
 
harshad said:
It doesn't fit with what we know of Lyanna in the books.

There is conversation that Ned has with Lyanna and Lyanna is not happy with here betrothal with Robert. She says that she know he has a bastard child and he will never keep to one bed. And then to have her marry a person who is already married with children doesn't fit well with the character.
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That reads to me like Lyanna saying she knows Robert would cheat on her because that's his nature. That's not the same as Rhaegar leaving his wife to be with her.
 
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