Well most of the criticisms were there long before the show made the book readership exploded. I personally think people were just incredibly disappointed because they waited 5 long years for ADwD and nothing notable happened aside from mutiny at the Wall. I started the series the year it came out though so if you binge all 5 books in one go it does make a coherent, continuous narrative.
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
- Thread starter Massive Spanner
- Start date
Guess when I do the Boiled Leather read of Feast and Dance, I'd probably appreciate Quentyn's arc more but right now it's the pointless thing in Dance for me.
I think so too. Sure one may ask if the introduction of new plot threads revolving around entirely new sets of people with agendas of their own was really useful or necessary, especially seeing how at least one of them is eliminated later in the same book that saw it introduced.
That gave people the impression that GRRM didn't really know where to go with the greater story arc, or at least not how to tie up the loose threads and bring things to a non-shitty ending. And the lack of the sixth novel says that this impression is not very far off the mark.
That's how I read it first time around. Currently halfway though ASOS for the second time so gonna take AFFC and ADOD in turn this time.
The thing is he originally planned a trilogy, so he knew the end game, but as the universe expanded he did write himself into a corner sometimes. I'd chalk the slowness for Winds down to him enjoying the limelight though. Probably only time in his life can he bask in public admiration so we cant begrudge the fat bastard.
I thought Robb wrote a letter in Series 2 or early Series 3 but maybe I'm wrong. I also think theres a big difference between Jon who people see as avenging his father (even if we all know he isn't) and taking Winterfell back from the family who wrongfully took it and tormented half the region, is very, very different to the offspring of the rightful lords brothers children with various women. Had Jon as openly Lyanna's son murdered Ned and the Stark children would the North have gathered around him?
@harshad - He gets knocked eventually and then kills 2 more men if I'm not mistaken. He also kills many men in the battle of the blackwater vs Stannis. While he's certainly no Jaime he is no slouch in those battles either and given his lifestyle and stature he'd hardly be in the shape to openly cut down knights, soldiers etc...
Given how Tyrion is introduced in the books as waddling, cramps etc.. its a huge contradiction on George's part albeit I suppose necessary to tell both battles as some major player had to be there.
I also read somewhere GRRM said himself that he regrets Tyrions battle skiills.
@fishfingers15 - The world building is good, but Dany does nothing for 2 books except try being a lesbian and mess up running Mereen.
FAegon is interesting but its obvious he's filler, like returning to the II for the Kingsmoot. They are nice for world building but don't drive the story very much.
Quentyn and Dorne in general. Brienne goes on a lovely yet boring trip around the world that accomplishes feck all and right when you think she finally dies... turns out George hand't the heart to kill her.
Lady Stoneheart.
They all may play apart but I guarantee the end game will all be about the characters from the fist 3 books.
George wrote himself into such a big hole, he still hasn't written himself out of it. Not all those books are drivel but lots of it was padding because he seemed at a loss on how to finish the story. Initially he had planned to get it done in 3 books and got carried away with his approach (he's also not the only fantasy writer to do that, take a bow Robert Jordan...) and built a brilliant and unique fantasy world but he also make so many cliffhangers and built so many subplots he seems at a loss to get it finished.
I can assure you I read the books long before the tv show, well those that were available to me and had the same issues.
Anyone besides me think frankenmountain will provide some big problems for arya? Like maybe sensing the danger despite her disguises?
That is still beside the point though. He remains an illegitimised bastard and Oathbreaker (I'd hold no land, father no son etc...). It beggars belief that after making such a big deals about bastards in the early seasons people would suddenly be cool about being ruled by one, especially when Sansa is there as the Lady of Winterfell and their liege by right. Of course Yanks don't care about that and people proclaiming him King based on his deeds seem more suited to the sensibilities of TV viewers than one survivor of Rob's vassals with knowledge of the will make known that fact.
That's the problem with the show in general. The end game might be the same but the execution is incredibly ham-fisted and lazy, since they know they can get away with it.
Yeah, a lot of ADWD is very good and some of it contains GRRM's best writing...but it's also incredibly slow with plots/storylines that would've been cut with an efficient editor. When you consider that the beginning of TWOW will basically be the ending of ADWD because GRRM still couldn't finish it, GRRM pretty much hasn't finished his sequel to ASOS even though he's written two books since then. Which shows how bloated the story's become.
Tbf the same problem happened to a lot of fantasy writers. Robert Jordan initially envisioned 10 books but despite the borefest from Lord of Chaos to Winter's Heart, Sanderson still had to divide the last book into 3 because of the sheer scope of the story that needs to be told. You started out with a vision but as the writing process came along characters and stories begin to take a life of their own and create many narrative problem. I never criticised the tardiness of GRRM because having dabbled in writing myself, writer's block is just an inevitable obstacle you run into.
Typical successful author book bloat. You see it all the time. First books more efficiently sized, when the money is there suddenly you have 800 page books.
@padr81 iifc GRRM regretted the way he introduced Tyrion with him doing flips and rolls. I don't remember him having any issues with how he wrote him in the battle scenes.
@InfiniteBoredom Jon isn't really an oath breaker. His oath is until his death, he died and thus his watch ended. Anyway all he's really done is relocate to Winterfell, like we saw last episode he's still concerned about the Night's Watch and the Wall.
I find it hard to believe anyone would rather have an exact recreation of all the books. Dance is sinfully boring and despite some flaws the show has accelerated the story lines much better than GRRM has managed. If we ever see Winds I'd wager he still hasn't managed to get Dany out of Mereen by the end of it.
The first three books were brilliant but the rest not so much, which makes me think Winds will be underwhelming. The show isn't perfect but the snobbery from book fans gets a bit cringey.
@InfiniteBoredom Jon isn't really an oath breaker. His oath is until his death, he died and thus his watch ended. Anyway all he's really done is relocate to Winterfell, like we saw last episode he's still concerned about the Night's Watch and the Wall.
I find it hard to believe anyone would rather have an exact recreation of all the books. Dance is sinfully boring and despite some flaws the show has accelerated the story lines much better than GRRM has managed. If we ever see Winds I'd wager he still hasn't managed to get Dany out of Mereen by the end of it.
The first three books were brilliant but the rest not so much, which makes me think Winds will be underwhelming. The show isn't perfect but the snobbery from book fans gets a bit cringey.
Don't get how some in the show thread are still complaining about time and travel distance. Gold help them if they ever go through the books and have to endure a dozen chapters of Sam's travels. They'll long for the show's teleporter.
Also it's kind of funny how some think the shit cleaning montage is below the show. From a set of books that had lines like "The ship groaned beneath him like a constipated fat man straining to shit." and the poetic.....
"Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water."
Also it's kind of funny how some think the shit cleaning montage is below the show. From a set of books that had lines like "The ship groaned beneath him like a constipated fat man straining to shit." and the poetic.....
"Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water."
All good points my friend and indeed a big miss on the show part. One can only presume they know Jon was killed and his watch has ended but the bastard thing is a silly call indeed. No way George makes Jon KitN in that simplistic a way. I actually presumed that Sansa would become the lady of WF and Jon her right hand man and was surprised with the KitN thing completely.
My biggest show issue is the handling of the Shireen burning over Ramsey's "20 good men" but I suppose I'm more willing to forgive more in a tv show with such a huge ensemble, budget and time constraints.
I think alot of the show is rushed and panders to the Jon/Arya/Dany fanbase and find they have had to rush because of this and dragging out season 4 and 5 to make Dorne (which I think they could have just left out completely as a better alternative to the SS and plot we have there now).
I hugely prefer the books to the tv show but I think there was a massive drop in pacing in the books post ASoS and while George seems unable to get to the end and tie up all the lose ends and cut the bloat. The show is as you say making a ham fisted attempt to get it done without George to guide them.
As you say the same happened to Robert Jordan and it took him 3 or 4 books to fix it. I'm actually re-reading the WoT atm and honest books 6-10 basically have a few on point chapters but alot of it is "I'm lost have brought in 600000000 useless Aes Sedai, and don't know what to do with them all.
Well we the viewers know that and can empathise with that stance, but it'd be pretty unbelievable for the Northern lords don't you think, especially with the 'bastard have no honor' stigma. All they see is a deserter claiming what is rightfully his trueborn half sister's, with a horde of wildlings -rapist, ravagers, their enemies for a thousand years- behind his back, making up a tall tale about being dead and come back from the dead.
The obvious solution to that is his heritage must be made known first, since the Targs are associated with magic.
You are forgetting the 'fat pink mast'
Book 6 is awesome and the 'Kneel before the Lord Dragon' might be the best 'scene' in Wheel of Time. I found only books 9 and 10 insufferable, to be fair, with books 7, 8 and 11 being alright, but pointless (a bit like Storm of Swords and Dance of Dragons, though more childish).
The main difference between Jordan and Martin seems to me that Jordan tried to finish the book, while Martin doesn't give that impression. A sick Jordan was writing faster than Martin. At the same time, both lost their way on their books with Jordan unfortunately not being able to finish them (and even if he didn't die, I doubt that he would have been able to finish them). Sanderson had to fix Jordan's story, and still think that the best bet to finish ASOIAF would be if Martin agrees to leave the books to some other writer (Abercrombie would be my favorite). Thing is, Martin is becoming even more slower. Even if Winds get releases sometime during the next year, it is hard to see the final book being released before 2025. And then, will the 'final' book be really the final one?
He is not going to finish this story, so GoT - like it or not - is most likely the only closure we are going to get.
Unfortunately this looks increasingly likely to be the case.
However, he's 68, not 80. Despite looking like Santa on roids he keeps a busy schedule so seems to be on good health. With the show now requiring little to no involvement he should be able to devote a large chunk of his time for writing if he so wishes. And that's the problem, if he so wishes.
Edit: Scrap that. This is what the old git said in one of his recent entries...
So D&E, Robert's Rebellion, Dance of the Dragons are all in the works apparently (Or Blackfyre Rebellion, Aegon's Conquest etc...)
Last edited:
Book 6 when he is 70.
Book 7 when he is 75-80.
Book 8???
I don't think that he'll be able to finish all the storylines in 2 books, unless he really changes his style. He needed 11 years to write what was supposed to be a few chapters in Winds of Winter, and even then, he didn't finish that part yet.
Not really. The northern Lords sided with a known traitor. Actions seem to speak louder than words to the northerners. If he wins back Winterfell in a similar fashion in the books his kingship will make perfect sense. Plus in the books there is the letter that legitimises him.
His kingship doesn't make sense without the letter, which the show omitted. It's not suffice to explain it away with 'he's the protagonist', GoT's societal structure is that of medieval Europe, succession and inheritance are the most important thing for the ruling class and no one sane would proclaim a bastard their liege under no threat of arms or out of the goodness of their heart.
In the books, it's more likely that he'll just assume the Lordship of Winterfell after resurrection than KitN, if we assume that Stannis isn't beaten by Ramsay.
If he doesn't finish the books, then someone else will. The people who wrote the world of ice and fire for instance received plenty of support from GRRM.
I thought Dragonstone scenes were well done because of the significance of the moment. Granted they could have made it a bit more dramatic with dragons involved or actually deciding something about the plot, but it was reasonably done with the weight of returning to home etched on Clarke's face.
I see posts in the show thread criticizing the amount of time it took. That's absurd. Noodlehair whinges about everything but is Amolbhatia consistently wrong about everything he ever posts or it's all in my head?
I see posts in the show thread criticizing the amount of time it took. That's absurd. Noodlehair whinges about everything but is Amolbhatia consistently wrong about everything he ever posts or it's all in my head?
In the books it's much more likely he'll be declared KiTN immediately due to the letter but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that his actions in a Winter fell battle will influence a decision.
You say bastards are frowned upon, but no more so than females, even trueborn females. Sansa has even lesser chance of becoming QiTN than Jon does becoming king
I thought it was perfect. We (and Danny) have been waiting for that moment in the last 6 years. There was nothing to add there, and just skipping that part would have been totally stupid. And to be fair, it didn't even last that long, it was all 3-4 minutes.
People just like to complain.
Jon showed quite many heroics in that Battle. I don't think that people would give a shit about the letter (if it exists in the first place) anyway, near as much as what Jon showed.
Also, as far as I am aware of, there hasn't ever been a Queen of the North, so Sansa never stood a chance. North isn't Dorne.
There are precedents of female house rulers. There are no precedent of illegitimised bastard ruler.
All the Stark children are presumed dead in the books besides Sansa. If Jon bends the knee to Stannis and acknowledge him his king and get legitimised, he'll be the Warden of the North and Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell. If Stannis is dead and Jon depose the Boltons, the succession will be left vacant for Sansa and Jon can serve as a caretaker until they can find her, unless Rob's will is made known. Logically, in the absence of House Stark, the smaller Houses will want to claim rule of the North for themselves, be it a regency or outright hegemon, but rest assured no bastard son of Ned Stark can claim it.
Edit: I forgot about Manderly. He knew about Bran's and Rickon's survival following the Siege of Winterfell, so even if the will is made known it'll be voided anyway since there are still 2 trueborn sons of Ned Stark out there.
Last edited:
Although it's yet to happen in the books the Ramsay situation was a bastard becoming ruler, albeit slightly different.
The way I see it playing out is very similar to the books. Ramsay and the Bolton will defeat Stannis, Jon will be resurrected by Mel by burning Shireen, Jon will hang the traitors and head to Winterfell to rescue "Arya". Jon will rally an army against the Boltons and win against the odds, his victory and bravery will make Northerners recognise, name aside he is a Stark (Ned's son as far as they're concerned). I expect Rickon will be killed and Bran will be north of the wall. Even if they make Jon King regent, he'll still rule.
Also Robb's will is at Greywater, with the only living person who knows Jon's true parentage, there's no way this doesn't eventually come into play.
Some northerners may not be happy with a bastard being named KiTN but it will happen.
The show is basically the cliff notes of the books at this stage.
Edit Dorne is the only exception in terms of female monarchs. Females may rule a house but not a kingdom elsewhere in Westeros
Matey, they are not computers that follow an algorithm. In one side there is a bastard Stark who has become legendary for his bravery, combat skills and charisma, on the other hand a teenage girl who was married to a Lannister imp and a despised Bolton bastard. Obviously, most of the Northern lords would be siding with Jon. And to be fair, Sansa never went for the throne.
Yes, and loyal as they showed to the Starks, I still expect men to be ambitious. If there's no trueborn Stark left to rule, why not claim the prize for themselves? The act doesn't impugn their honor. Hating Boltons and loving Ned Stark's bastard are two different things.
There is no mention of Rob's will being at Greywater. Galbart Glover and someone else were sent North and are presumably at the Neck, but there's no proof they carry the document with them. In the event House Bolton is deposed, the most likely scenario is still a council of Northern Lords being convened to hear the survivors of Robb's bannermen and confer Kingship onto Jon. But then we run into the Manderly's problem (or non-problem, depending on whether you believe the Grand Northern Conspiracy).
While it's difficult to pinpoint the will all evidence points to it being at the neck along with the witnesses of the writing. Also Stoneheart is around that area.
This work is fiction so Jon will be named KiTN whether the North thinks he's a bastard or not. The North are more concerned with loyalty and bravery all of which Jon exhibits.
I'm not really sure how you can question this. The show is giving a quicker, condensed story. There probably will be more political turmoil around Jon's rise to power but it will happen.
So you agree with my initial assertion that they botched the execution then? How can a viewer with no knowledge of the books but versed in medieval hierarchy believe Jon's ascension?
And no, all evidence points to the will being lost at the Red Wedding. In the text, Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont carried letters with false instructions on their way North. There's no logical reason for a document of such importance being entrusted to their care while they embark on a perilous journey.
The 20 second teaser trailer for episode 2
shows a wolf barking at somebody -- one would assume that's Nymeria. A lot of people seem to believe this encounter will conflict Arya's motivations -- go back North to her family, or continue on her faceless revenge path?
I'm fairly sure I've seen his name dropped in here many times when the seasons start up again.
No, I disagree. The show did the best they could. The switch from the ToJ scene to Jon's coronation was a nod to his legimacy which will be covered in more detail in the books.
Medieval ascension is a murky area. Power, especially in war had a huge contributing factor when deciding leaders. Jon characterises this in the show so his reasons to be declared king makes sense.
It seems you are trying to parallel reality with fiction. If you do this there will always be inconsistencies.
Regarding the will, this is pure speculation, on both our parts. The most prominent theory is it is at the neck along with Howland Reed. This may be a huge red herring, which I wouldn't put past GRRM, but IMO is the most likely in narrative terms.
Even without the will, Jon being named KiTN makes sense.
It only does if you like the idea of Snow being the king of the north. It's like Gendry rocking up to King's Landing and declaring he's the king as he is the real son of Robert Baratheon.
If he had become Lord of the Citywatch, had defended Kinglanding in a war against an army 100 times larger (that would be Tyrells), had fought against an army of zombies, had been killed and resurrected, and finally showed unmatched bravery and fighting skills against an army twice as large as his (that would be Martells), killing singlehanded the Sand Snakes? And the other option was Myrcella.
Of course that he would have become King. Especially if Myrcella didn't go for the crown (Sansa didn't and from Jon's character it is quite sure to believe that he would had supported Sansa if Sansa wanted to become queen).
Robin Arryn is the Lord of the Eyrie and he's a sick 7 year old boy. Your birth and status matters and not every warrior becomes a king.
It's nothing like that at all. Jon had just recaptured the North from a tyrannical leader. Gendry has been rowing for years.
Bloodlines are broken and reformed for all royal seats. Fiction or not.
I don't think cersei had a claim but it didn't stop her putting the crown on her head and the people will have no choice but to show allegiance.
Also, didn't Cersei say something to Ned along the lines of, "I'm surprised you didn't claim the throne for yourself after Jaime killed the mad king struck.
I don't think cersei had a claim but it didn't stop her putting the crown on her head and the people will have no choice but to show allegiance.
Also, didn't Cersei say something to Ned along the lines of, "I'm surprised you didn't claim the throne for yourself after Jaime killed the mad king struck.
Cersei is the wife of the dead king and all of Robert's children have died. She's the rightful Queen regent.