Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?

Impulse said:
The Others are only referred to as evil by humans, but that doesn't make them so because the humans don't know anything about the Others having never actually met any of them, they just believe the fairytales they were told as children. As a comparison, the common folk think of Tyrion as an evil, monkey-demon who killed his King because they don't know him and are quick to believe the lies told about him because of the way he looks.
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what is it really? Either we drove them to extinction and they are just another race fighting to live in the world or we've never met any of them and believe the fairy tales?

Tyrion Lannister has been portrayed in the books as the noblest of Lannisters. Yes, he is universally disliked for being an Imp but the book often portrays him as a very good individual.

Gol123 said:
This. We assumed the Lannister were evil for a long time until we saw their perspective in later books.
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You assumed the Lannisters were evil, I didn't. What is this Lannister perspective that you saw later in the books that made you think Lannisters are not evil? There are some good Lannisters and some who aren't.
 
fishfingers15 said:
what is it really? Either we drove them to extinction and they are just another race fighting to live in the world or we've never met any of them and believe the fairy tales?

Tyrion Lannister has been portrayed in the books as the noblest of Lannisters. Yes, he is universally disliked for being an Imp but the book often portrays him as a very good individual.



You assumed the Lannisters were evil, I didn't. What is this Lannister perspective that you saw later in the books that made you think Lannisters are not evil? There are some good Lannisters and some who aren't.
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Jaime was made out to be a dick and wasn't. As was Tywin.

We don't know anything about them in the books. Just 8000 year old stories from the victory of the war (Humanity). The only two appearances they have made was attack rangers who were technically speaking in their lands and also take a baby to turn into one of their own (The shows spoiled that).

The last point suggests their numbers are dwindling and they are struggling to breed more.

Also, they are never described as evil creatures. Quite the opposite actually, they are described as majestic and beautiful.
 
Gol123 said:
Jaime was made out to be a dick and wasn't. As was Tywin.

We don't know anything about them in the books. Just 8000 year old stories from the victory of the war (Humanity). The only two appearances they have made was attack rangers who were technically speaking in their lands and also take a baby to turn into one of their own (The shows spoiled that).

The last point suggests their numbers are dwindling and they are struggling to breed more.

Also, they are never described as evil creatures. Quite the opposite actually, they are described as majestic and beautiful.
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Jesus :lol:

Jaime is still a dick who screwed his sister with his dead son in the sept, as is Tywin. He even had Aegon and Rhaenys murdered because Elia Martell married Rhaegar instead of Cersei Lannister.

This is a futile exercise arguing with you if the others are just another human genome and they are not really evil. There are plenty of characters in the GRRM Novel and Novella that are evil, for example The Mountain and Vargo Hoat. There is no grey in them, they are just evil characters. The book has many good characters and many evil characters.

Well you may be the Night King's grandson, secretly wanking off to the beautiful description of the Others, but I don't see how you can see things that kill and make wights out of dead people be majestic and beautiful. Not going to argue with you, I'm open to the idea that the Others may even win the battle and humans forced into hiding but I can't see how Others are not evil. I seriously think you should have a tag name change as well.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Jesus :lol:

Jaime is still a dick who screwed his sister with his dead son in the sept, as is Tywin. He even had Aegon and Rhaenys murdered because Elia Martell married Rhaegar instead of Cersei Lannister.

This is a futile exercise arguing with you if the others are just another human genome and they are not really evil. There are plenty of characters in the GRRM Novel and Novella that are evil, for example The Mountain and Vargo Hoat. There is no grey in them, they are just evil characters. The book has many good characters and many evil characters.

Well you may be the Night King's grandson, secretly wanking off to the beautiful description of the Others, but I don't see how you can see things that kill and make wights out of dead people be majestic and beautiful. Not going to argue with you, I'm open to the idea that the Others may even win the battle and humans forced into hiding but I can't see how Others are not evil. I seriously think you should have a tag name change as well.
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You do know that what you are doing is condemning a whole race/species/civilisation as inherently evil. You do see what your doing here right?

There is a difference between individuals who are intrinsically evil people (Even then, they are often times products of their lives) and stating that a whole race are evil because they are perceived as bad guys by "good guys".

How is controlling undead corpses any worse then what Bran is doing to Hodor whenever he takes over him? It really isn't, in fact it is a lot worse what Bran is doing. Is Bran evil?

Also, in war, bad things must be done to win. If they are preparing for waround and lack the numbers to win then taking over dead bodies is their only chance of winning.

Also, no need for the tone. We all know your intelligent here, you don't have to try and belittle people's views because you disagree with them. Doesn't validate your own opinion in any way.
 
Gol123 said:
You do know that what you are doing is condemning a whole race/species/civilisation as inherently evil. You do see what your doing here right?

There is a difference between individuals who are intrinsically evil people (Even then, they are often times products of their lives) and stating that a whole race are evil because they are perceived as bad guys by "good guys".

How is controlling undead corpses any worse then what Bran is doing to Hodor whenever he takes over him? It really isn't, in fact it is a lot worse what Bran is doing. Is Bran evil?

Also, in war, bad things must be done to win. If they are preparing for waround and lack the numbers to win then taking over dead bodies is their only chance of winning.

Also, no need for the tone. We all know your intelligent here, you don't have to try and belittle people's views because you disagree with them. Doesn't validate your own opinion in any way.
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Alright, Others are not evil, just another forgotten species who haven't been seen by Mankind for 8000 years trying to find space in world to live in.
 
The Others are fighting for their survival? How could that be the case when no one is attacking them, they don't need any ressources and are practically immortal? What do they need from Westeros?
 
Scarecrow said:
The Others are fighting for their survival? How could that be the case when no one is attacking them, they don't need any ressources and are practically immortal? What do they need from Westeros?
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We donth really know anything about the others. All we know is that they have small numbers and need crasters young boys to keep their numbers up.

We aren't even sure if they are immortal in the books.

EDIT:
They are also humans it seems. So, human desires may overcome them.
 
Waldner said:
Yeah... It's not though is it. Come on now, this is a real shit devils advocate role you're playing. You might consider the show a failure when compared to the books but any reasonable person can understand that it's far from shit.
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Indeed. The fifth season was shit, but all the other seasons have been very good, with the first one being one of the best seasons ever.
 
Revan said:
Indeed. The fifth season was shit, but all the other seasons have been very good, with the first one being one of the best seasons ever.
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This season has been very poor.
 
Gol123 said:
You do know that what you are doing is condemning a whole race/species/civilisation as inherently evil. You do see what your doing here right?

There is a difference between individuals who are intrinsically evil people (Even then, they are often times products of their lives) and stating that a whole race are evil because they are perceived as bad guys by "good guys".

How is controlling undead corpses any worse then what Bran is doing to Hodor whenever he takes over him? It really isn't, in fact it is a lot worse what Bran is doing. Is Bran evil?

Also, in war, bad things must be done to win. If they are preparing for waround and lack the numbers to win then taking over dead bodies is their only chance of winning.

Also, no need for the tone. We all know your intelligent here, you don't have to try and belittle people's views because you disagree with them. Doesn't validate your own opinion in any way.
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I don't want to destroy you dreams, but D&D, who do know more about the story than anyone apart from GRRM probably, recently talked about the others in an interview and why they are portrayed in the show like they are.

They are basically saying the Night King and the walkers don't get lines of speech because it would be irrelevant, they are the pure evil, the absolute antagonist. All they could say would just take that feeling away, so they are not giving them lines. They are intelligent, but in an entirely different way than humans. All they bring is death and destruction and its their only purpose.[/spoilers]
 
fcbforever said:
I don't want to destroy you dreams, but D&D, who do know more about the story than anyone apart from GRRM probably, recently talked about the others in an interview and why they are portrayed in the show like they are.

They are basically saying the Night King and the walkers don't get lines of speech because it would be irrelevant, they are the pure evil, the absolute antagonist. All they could say would just take that feeling away, so they are not giving them lines. They are intelligent, but in an entirely different way than humans. All they bring is death and destruction and its their only purpose.[/spoilers]
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Well, there you are. GRRM is a bullshitter thend. I'm not going to lie, I do worry that the books are going to drop in quality too.
 
Gol123 said:
Well, there you are. GRRM is a bullshitter thend. I'm not going to lie, I do worry that the books are going to drop in quality too.
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They have dropped in quality already. The last two are not nearly as good as the first three, for me.

I disagree with you about the last season though. I liked it overall, especially after the shitshow that was the 5th one. It gives me hope that the next book will be good.
 
Reading the books after watching how the story pans out on TV is going to seriously diminish enjoyment of them anyhow. I can't see him finishing them, and we'll just get an adaptation of the show for the last one, with pretty much the same story
 
Scarecrow said:
They have dropped in quality already. The last two are not nearly as good as the first three, for me.

I disagree with you about the last season though. I liked it overall, especially after the shitshow that was the 5th one. It gives me hope that the next book will be good.
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I can see it getting worse with him trying to finish up storyline hat have no end in sight. Two books to cram so much in could lead to a similar cluster feck as the show has right now.
JustAFan said:
:lol:
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Gol123 said:
You do know that what you are doing is condemning a whole race/species/civilisation as inherently evil. You do see what your doing here right?

There is a difference between individuals who are intrinsically evil people (Even then, they are often times products of their lives) and stating that a whole race are evil because they are perceived as bad guys by "good guys".
.
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1) they are just make believe
2).we don't even know if they are truly a race/people/civilization. If the books follow the show they can be considered just a weapon created with the purpose of destroying the then enemy of the cotf. A weapon gone beyond the control of the cotf.
 
"Another interesting thing from the con, at one point in a panel GRRM was commenting that he didn't like how in a lot of fantasy stories various races are all defined by a single personality (i.e. all orcs are evil, all elves are wise, etc), whereas it would be more realistic for various individuals within a race to have different personalities, viewpoints, etc. Some quick-witted audience member asked him how that idea applied to the Others in his own books, to which he replied, "I'm not gonna answer that." http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.ph...l-grrms-words/&do=findComment&comment=7205763

Make of that what you want.
 
Gol123 said:
This season has been very poor.
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It hasn't. There have been a couple of poor episodes in the middle, but otherwise it has been very good. The first episode had a lot of drama, then on the second we had Jon getting revived, on the next one his meeting with Sansa, then the Danny doing her stuff, then Hold the Door which was brilliant, and the last two episodes were great (The Winds of Winter is my joint favorite together with Rains of Castemere, and The Battle of Bastards is a top 5 - top 10 episode in the show).

So all things considered, I thought that it was a very good season. As good as seasons 2, 3 and 4 which were always accepted as good TV show. It cannot touch the first season, but then bar The Wire (all first four seasons) and the last season of Breaking Bad, I don't think that there is a show that can touch it.
 
Scarecrow said:
They have dropped in quality already. The last two are not nearly as good as the first three, for me.

I disagree with you about the last season though. I liked it overall, especially after the shitshow that was the 5th one. It gives me hope that the next book will be good.
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I think that A Dance with Dragons was a very good book, but yep, compared with the first three (especially with A Storm of Swords) it doesn't look good. A Feast for Crows wasn't that good, but if the last two books will be as good as A Dance with Dragons, then I will be a very happy person.

There isn't a single big fantasy saga right there which didn't bin in the quality after a few books. Trilogies may keep the quality, but when it comes to large sagas, they all bin. Wheel of Time, Malazan (not read, but based on what people say), Black Company, ASOIAF etc, all have some books (usually in the middle) which do not compare with the books in the beginning.

I think that ASOIAF will have a strong finish, providing that it will have a finish. Books 4 and 5 were always meant just to create the platform for the final books, and originally Martin wanted them to not happen at all, but just to describe the events on Winds of Winter but then saw that will be very difficult so wrote them. But they were always meant to be the 'calm before the storm'.
 
Revan said:
I think that A Dance with Dragons was a very good book, but yep, compared with the first three (especially with A Storm of Swords) it doesn't look good. A Feast for Crows wasn't that good, but if the last two books will be as good as A Dance with Dragons, then I will be a very happy person.

There isn't a single big fantasy saga right there which didn't bin in the quality after a few books. Trilogies may keep the quality, but when it comes to large sagas, they all bin. Wheel of Time, Malazan (not read, but based on what people say), Black Company, ASOIAF etc, all have some books (usually in the middle) which do not compare with the books in the beginning.

I think that ASOIAF will have a strong finish, providing that it will have a finish. Books 4 and 5 were always meant just to create the platform for the final books, and originally Martin wanted them to not happen at all, but just to describe the events on Winds of Winter but then saw that will be very difficult so wrote them. But they were always meant to be the 'calm before the storm'.
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I loved AFFC and ADWD is very good still.

AGOT 8.5
ACOK 8
ASOS 9.5
AFFC 8.5
ADWD 7.5

Opinions.
 
Revan said:
It hasn't. There have been a couple of poor episodes in the middle, but otherwise it has been very good. The first episode had a lot of drama, then on the second we had Jon getting revived, on the next one his meeting with Sansa, then the Danny doing her stuff, then Hold the Door which was brilliant, and the last two episodes were great (The Winds of Winter is my joint favorite together with Rains of Castemere, and The Battle of Bastards is a top 5 - top 10 episode in the show).

So all things considered, I thought that it was a very good season. As good as seasons 2, 3 and 4 which were always accepted as good TV show. It cannot touch the first season, but then bar The Wire (all first four seasons) and the last season of Breaking Bad, I don't think that there is a show that can touch it.
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I disagree. Sure, a lot of things that fans wanted to see happen did happen but everything was so incoherent, rushed and forced together it just ended up being a mess.

Character developmentioned went out of the window. Hinted at plot points were completely abandoned in the very next episode. Characters dialogue was very poor and inter relationships were very forced and seemed more like fan service then actual plot progressing relationships. There was no depth to the story and the pacing was well off. Stories would be dawdling all season and then rushed in the last couple of episodes.


Sure, there were great battles, set pieces and direction but then the same can be said for a Michael Bay film. This season was a glorified Michael Bay film and nothing much more.
 
Hammerfell said:
I've never met anyone who hates everything quite as much as @Gol123.
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He's almost parodying himself now. Taking this devils advocate thing so far. Everything is always contrary to everyone else's opinion and there's never any acceptance that you know, he might be wrong and everyone else be right.
 
Why are you so defensive of the show? Imo it's completely reasonable to think this season has been poor. Gol123 even admitted the show has great effects and filming techniques but having different priorities doesn't make you a "hater". I don't think the show is shit, the current season had amazing effects, directing and some great acting aswell and some emotional scenes, but I didn't like the season too much either because of the poor writing and dialogue.

Of course it's completely reasonable to love the show aswell, it's really just a matter of taste.

If I ignore my taste I'd say it's good. Not shit, not great.
 
Yeah my favourite thing about the show was the partnership dialogues they had going - Arya/Tywin, Tywin/Tyrion, Arya/Hound - and in general the politics of King's Landing from seasons 1-4. Off the top of my head, a scene like this was what made the show so great IMO:



Starting in season 5 all that was finished, the attempt to have the Jaime/Bronn duo replicate some of the other relationships failed, and I guess too many great characters, especially Tywin and Joffrey, had been killed off by then that King's Landing became a bore. Since then the writers have relied more and more on the amazing effects and stuff mentioned above, which has made it a different kind of show.
 
2cents said:
Yeah my favourite thing about the show was the partnership dialogues they had going - Arya/Tywin, Tywin/Tyrion, Arya/Hound - and in general the politics of King's Landing from seasons 1-4. Off the top of my head, a scene like this was what made the show so great IMO:



Starting in season 5 all that was finished, the attempt to have the Jaime/Bronn duo replicate some of the other relationships failed, and I guess too many great characters, especially Tywin and Joffrey, had been killed off by then that King's Landing became a bore. Since then the writers have relied more and more on the amazing effects and stuff mentioned above, which has made it a different kind of show.
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Agree with this. The show is a lot less clever than it used to be, most likely as book material has dried up. It's become very predictable and a little bit plodding in the last two seasons. The first four seasons are pure gold.

Of course, we'll all stay hooked until the end!
 
Revan said:
I think that A Dance with Dragons was a very good book, but yep, compared with the first three (especially with A Storm of Swords) it doesn't look good. A Feast for Crows wasn't that good, but if the last two books will be as good as A Dance with Dragons, then I will be a very happy person.

There isn't a single big fantasy saga right there which didn't bin in the quality after a few books. Trilogies may keep the quality, but when it comes to large sagas, they all bin. Wheel of Time, Malazan (not read, but based on what people say), Black Company, ASOIAF etc, all have some books (usually in the middle) which do not compare with the books in the beginning.

I think that ASOIAF will have a strong finish, providing that it will have a finish. Books 4 and 5 were always meant just to create the platform for the final books, and originally Martin wanted them to not happen at all, but just to describe the events on Winds of Winter but then saw that will be very difficult so wrote them. But they were always meant to be the 'calm before the storm'.
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Do you think AFFC takes a hit because it dwells more into the fantasy from the politics in the first three books? I thought AFFC was a great read myself.
 
fishfingers15 said:
:lol:

After arguing for so long that you know how GRRM writes without complete evil and only grey, now you've started hating GRRM as well?
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Don't hate him. Don't know the man.

You're a very presumptuous person
 
Gol123 said:
Don't hate him. Don't know the man.

You're a very presumptuous person
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Yes, but I do have an open mind on rating books and shows.

Listen, there's no point in having an e-fight over a book, that is not going to result in a monetary compensation for you and me. We are just book readers, I didn't write the books and we disagree on some points. I don't have to take this personally and I hope it's the same on your side. If I have offended you, please don't take it to heart and I didn't mean it. Let's see how this all pans out in the coming books.
 
Let's do a most hated character in the book series of posts. We put forward a character first and then give reasoning on why we hate the character.

My pick : Catelyn Stark.
 
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