If you hate the books and show so much, why do you bother with it then?
He's a teenager. He hates everything.
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
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He's a teenager. He hates everything.
Alright @fishfingers15
Here's my Evidence your honour!
Obviously most of this could be explained away with the simple "the dialogues shit mate". But lets assume/hope the dialogue isn't terrible. Its certainly a viable theory. There's so many holes in what Benjen tells us, I simply don't believe that neither the Children or BloodRaven would have forgotten/not bothered/didn't want to mention that Benjen was actually still alive. BloodRaven knows Bran is a Stark, Benjen must surely have said his full name. So why did BloodRaven not tell Bran? What possible reason would there be? Benjen seems to know an awful lot about the history of this world too, information that I don't think Sam knows and he's read a lot of books! So he must have spoken to BloodRaven to get this information (unless he's in league with the White Walkers).
The final point being that lets assume Bran is the Key and he's needed to cross the Wall to destroy the Magical Barrier. You would (I assume) need him alive to do this, but the White Walkers can't exactly march up to it and push him, he'd need to do it willingly. The only way to do this is to force him in that direction and provide him with the means and opportunity to survive the conditions. Enter Benjen.
Here's my Evidence your honour!
1. The Rescue
Extremely convenient time to rescue them. It just so happens that he manages to find Bran and Meera a few seconds before they were killed. This happens to be of course Uncle of Bran, a man that was killed by a White Walker yet lived (no Harry Potter reference). A man that was assumed dead for 5 seasons and rides in to save the day. A man that Bran will have no problem trusting. That's a lot of good fortune! How did he even know where to look? Bran and Meera could have headed in any direction? He was a Ranger, so tracking isn't difficult for him. But he also arrives from a different direction. If he was told by BloodRaven then why wasn't he told to meet them by the Door. Alternatively, Bran and Meera was never in danger and it was simply a setup to ensure that they'd both trust their rescuer. A man they'd already have little reason to mistrust given the family ties and yet he is undead. Watching him slay a few zombies surely put all doubt out of their minds however.
2. The Three Eyed Raven Sent for Me
Benjen: "The three eyed raven sent for me".
If you rewind back to Episode 5 you will see no mention of it. It's a logical assumption that BloodRaven would have contacted Benjen directly after Bran gets the Mark. However if you read the dialogue he has a brief conversation with Bran and they both go back in time and thus starts the Hold the Door scene. One possibility is that BloodRaven knew his death was going to happen, hence why there was no doubt when he told Bran the Night King touched him. This suggests he knew Bran was going to get the Mark and could have warned Benjen before the event took place. Having said all that, wouldn't BloodRaven have warned Benjen well in advance to ensure that he was present when Bran was marked? Surely that was an unnecessary risk? Also why no mention to Bran that he sent for help? The other conclusion is that Benjen is simply telling a lying, BloodRaven didn't ask for him at all.
3. He Lives Again...
Meera: "The three eyed raven is dead"
Benjen: "Now he lives again."
Now this could be simply bad dialogue, but how exactly does Benjen know that Bran is the new Three Eyed Raven? Bran hadn't even spoken at that point, so how would he know? One possibility is the BloodRaven told him, it's feasible. Alternatively he knew because the Night King knows Bran is the new one having killed the old one.
4. Benjens Death
Benjen: "The White Walker stabs me in the gut with a sword of ice. Left me there to die, to turn, the children found me, stopped the walkers magic from taking hold."
Bran: "How?"
Benjen: "The same way they made the Walkers in the first place. You saw it yourself."
Bran: "Dragonglass. A shard of Dragonglass plunged into your heart"
An interesting story. The question here is why didn't the Children tell Bran that they rescued his Uncle? You'd think that would come up as a discussion point during the months they lived there? Were they protecting Bran? Or is this simply another lie? The second line is even more interesting though. How did Benjen know that Bran had been shown the White Walker creation scene? To know this he must have spoken to BloodRaven who was present. But for that to happen they must have been in detailed conversation with one another? So why hasn't this been brought up? So were both the Children and BloodRaven unaware that Benjen was Brans Uncle? Or did they just not bother telling Bran the truth? Alternatively, you could suggest that the big pause before Benjen started his story was him thinking about what he planned to say.
5. To the Wall!
Bran: "I didn't have time to learn, I can't control anything."
Benjen: "You must learn to control it before the Night King comes, drink, one way or another he will find his way to the world of men and when he does you will be there waiting for him and you will be ready"
He doesn't exactly tell Bran to go to the wall it must be said. But he certainly implies it! Tells Bran that the Night King is heading for the world of men (The Wall) and tells Bran that he needs to be there waiting for him. He doesn't exactly lay it out on a map, but he certainly encourages Bran to head that way. Given that Bran could be the Key this is something that the Night King will want.
5. Benjen and the Wall
Benjen: "The walls not just ice and stone, ancient spells were carved into its foundations. Strong magic, to protect men from what lies beyond it and while it stands the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass."
Now we have Benjen providing us with another history lesson. This time he admits that because he's dead he can't pass the wall. Watch his line delivery of "I cannot pass". You could say this is simply him telling the truth and being honest. Granted highly possible. One explanation to Benjens history knowledge is that he's been told by BloodRaven and the Children while he was 'saved', again highly possible. I find it interesting however that he fails to ever mention the Mark though. I also find it interesting that he never once asks how the White Walkers found BloodRaven and how he was killed.
6. Benjens Goodbye
Benjen: "I wish you good fortune."
Yeah he doesn't really seem to mean that. It might be simply bad acting on his part or simply misdirection, but from my opinion that was the coldest and most unloving goodbye. Well I guess he is the undead and they're not famed for being too loving. But it could also simply be an undead agent who really doesn't give a shit.
Extremely convenient time to rescue them. It just so happens that he manages to find Bran and Meera a few seconds before they were killed. This happens to be of course Uncle of Bran, a man that was killed by a White Walker yet lived (no Harry Potter reference). A man that was assumed dead for 5 seasons and rides in to save the day. A man that Bran will have no problem trusting. That's a lot of good fortune! How did he even know where to look? Bran and Meera could have headed in any direction? He was a Ranger, so tracking isn't difficult for him. But he also arrives from a different direction. If he was told by BloodRaven then why wasn't he told to meet them by the Door. Alternatively, Bran and Meera was never in danger and it was simply a setup to ensure that they'd both trust their rescuer. A man they'd already have little reason to mistrust given the family ties and yet he is undead. Watching him slay a few zombies surely put all doubt out of their minds however.
2. The Three Eyed Raven Sent for Me
Benjen: "The three eyed raven sent for me".
If you rewind back to Episode 5 you will see no mention of it. It's a logical assumption that BloodRaven would have contacted Benjen directly after Bran gets the Mark. However if you read the dialogue he has a brief conversation with Bran and they both go back in time and thus starts the Hold the Door scene. One possibility is that BloodRaven knew his death was going to happen, hence why there was no doubt when he told Bran the Night King touched him. This suggests he knew Bran was going to get the Mark and could have warned Benjen before the event took place. Having said all that, wouldn't BloodRaven have warned Benjen well in advance to ensure that he was present when Bran was marked? Surely that was an unnecessary risk? Also why no mention to Bran that he sent for help? The other conclusion is that Benjen is simply telling a lying, BloodRaven didn't ask for him at all.
3. He Lives Again...
Meera: "The three eyed raven is dead"
Benjen: "Now he lives again."
Now this could be simply bad dialogue, but how exactly does Benjen know that Bran is the new Three Eyed Raven? Bran hadn't even spoken at that point, so how would he know? One possibility is the BloodRaven told him, it's feasible. Alternatively he knew because the Night King knows Bran is the new one having killed the old one.
4. Benjens Death
Benjen: "The White Walker stabs me in the gut with a sword of ice. Left me there to die, to turn, the children found me, stopped the walkers magic from taking hold."
Bran: "How?"
Benjen: "The same way they made the Walkers in the first place. You saw it yourself."
Bran: "Dragonglass. A shard of Dragonglass plunged into your heart"
An interesting story. The question here is why didn't the Children tell Bran that they rescued his Uncle? You'd think that would come up as a discussion point during the months they lived there? Were they protecting Bran? Or is this simply another lie? The second line is even more interesting though. How did Benjen know that Bran had been shown the White Walker creation scene? To know this he must have spoken to BloodRaven who was present. But for that to happen they must have been in detailed conversation with one another? So why hasn't this been brought up? So were both the Children and BloodRaven unaware that Benjen was Brans Uncle? Or did they just not bother telling Bran the truth? Alternatively, you could suggest that the big pause before Benjen started his story was him thinking about what he planned to say.
5. To the Wall!
Bran: "I didn't have time to learn, I can't control anything."
Benjen: "You must learn to control it before the Night King comes, drink, one way or another he will find his way to the world of men and when he does you will be there waiting for him and you will be ready"
He doesn't exactly tell Bran to go to the wall it must be said. But he certainly implies it! Tells Bran that the Night King is heading for the world of men (The Wall) and tells Bran that he needs to be there waiting for him. He doesn't exactly lay it out on a map, but he certainly encourages Bran to head that way. Given that Bran could be the Key this is something that the Night King will want.
5. Benjen and the Wall
Benjen: "The walls not just ice and stone, ancient spells were carved into its foundations. Strong magic, to protect men from what lies beyond it and while it stands the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass."
Now we have Benjen providing us with another history lesson. This time he admits that because he's dead he can't pass the wall. Watch his line delivery of "I cannot pass". You could say this is simply him telling the truth and being honest. Granted highly possible. One explanation to Benjens history knowledge is that he's been told by BloodRaven and the Children while he was 'saved', again highly possible. I find it interesting however that he fails to ever mention the Mark though. I also find it interesting that he never once asks how the White Walkers found BloodRaven and how he was killed.
6. Benjens Goodbye
Benjen: "I wish you good fortune."
Yeah he doesn't really seem to mean that. It might be simply bad acting on his part or simply misdirection, but from my opinion that was the coldest and most unloving goodbye. Well I guess he is the undead and they're not famed for being too loving. But it could also simply be an undead agent who really doesn't give a shit.
Obviously most of this could be explained away with the simple "the dialogues shit mate". But lets assume/hope the dialogue isn't terrible. Its certainly a viable theory. There's so many holes in what Benjen tells us, I simply don't believe that neither the Children or BloodRaven would have forgotten/not bothered/didn't want to mention that Benjen was actually still alive. BloodRaven knows Bran is a Stark, Benjen must surely have said his full name. So why did BloodRaven not tell Bran? What possible reason would there be? Benjen seems to know an awful lot about the history of this world too, information that I don't think Sam knows and he's read a lot of books! So he must have spoken to BloodRaven to get this information (unless he's in league with the White Walkers).
The final point being that lets assume Bran is the Key and he's needed to cross the Wall to destroy the Magical Barrier. You would (I assume) need him alive to do this, but the White Walkers can't exactly march up to it and push him, he'd need to do it willingly. The only way to do this is to force him in that direction and provide him with the means and opportunity to survive the conditions. Enter Benjen.
Anyhow, i'll shut up now. Don't want to bore you guys. 
TL;DR That's a long ass post. I will respond to it after reading it. Going to take a while. Have you got nothing better to do ffs?
Nope. Just going to walk my dog now.
Yeah think you're giving the writers too much credit - after Arya was stabbed and escaped the waif we had all these great theories on what happened, next episode we find out that actually there is no mystery or anything and basically the whole thing was pointless.
Redsky, I did read your long post but it seems to me that the directors of the show are giving the show watchers (heathens) a quick history of all that happened with Coldhands in the previous chapters of ADWD.
1) If Coldhands and Benjen Stark are indeed one character, then it explains the convenient timing of rescue, as Coldhands delivers Bran to the Bloodraven, but as a wight, he can't enter the cave. It also makes sense for him to say that he was indeed sent by the three eyed raven as he definitely was. Him saying Bran is the next three eyed raven is no biggie too, as Bran and Meera know it already. All these three points seem to be telling the show watchers about the past history of Coldhands character.
2) Regarding Benjen's death, book doesn't make it clear that the white walkers were created by the children of the forest. It only says that the demons emerged from the Long night and the Children of the forest and first men fought valiantly against it. So this entire 'corrupt them with the dragonglass shard' is completely new to us book readers too. So can't help with your questions and doubts on that point.
3) Regarding Bran's journey to the wall, We don't know know how the story is written in the books regarding Bran's journey from Bloodraven's cave. Whether he needs to go back to the Wall or to the realm of men is not clear to us at this point. I have always about this while reading the books. Does Bran have to take his place in the tree or will he make the return journey back? Leaf says to Meera in the show that Bran won't stay in the cave forever and Meera will have to help him and it makes sense that Leaf meant Meera to take Bran south and this idea doesn't come from Benjen alone.
4) Benjen saying the walls are made up of spells have been long known to the book readers when Coldhalds first takes Bran to the Bloodraven. Based on all the points above, I don't see much wrong in Benjen's goodbye.
This entire discussion is moot without knowing if Coldhands and Benjen are the same character. As book readers, we don't even know if Benjen still has a role to play and we don't know who Coldhands is. We know that Coldhands was indeed sent by Brynden rivers and Bran is supposed to be the new Greenseer. If Coldhands and Benjen Stark is a single character (like Euron and Victarian Greyjoys), it does seem like a hasty attempt by the directors to give the show watchers as much as history as possible from Coldhands/Benjen Stark's POV and it doesn't seem like that the character is evil.
Also, show does make a mockery of character arcs. Arya Stark's story arc with the Faceless God, Everything that happens in Dorne, The fights at the Riverlands, Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood without banners, Coldhands and the journey to the Bloodraven, The fight at the fist of Men, Jaime Lannister's slow march to redemption, Euron Greyjoy's character development along with Dragonbinder and Moqorro, Victarian Greyjoy have either all been omitted or conveniently merged with other characters. I'm guessing that your theories are more a result of this instead of genuine new theory.
Of course, I could be wrong and you can point this post and laugh at me later
1) If Coldhands and Benjen Stark are indeed one character, then it explains the convenient timing of rescue, as Coldhands delivers Bran to the Bloodraven, but as a wight, he can't enter the cave. It also makes sense for him to say that he was indeed sent by the three eyed raven as he definitely was. Him saying Bran is the next three eyed raven is no biggie too, as Bran and Meera know it already. All these three points seem to be telling the show watchers about the past history of Coldhands character.
2) Regarding Benjen's death, book doesn't make it clear that the white walkers were created by the children of the forest. It only says that the demons emerged from the Long night and the Children of the forest and first men fought valiantly against it. So this entire 'corrupt them with the dragonglass shard' is completely new to us book readers too. So can't help with your questions and doubts on that point.
3) Regarding Bran's journey to the wall, We don't know know how the story is written in the books regarding Bran's journey from Bloodraven's cave. Whether he needs to go back to the Wall or to the realm of men is not clear to us at this point. I have always about this while reading the books. Does Bran have to take his place in the tree or will he make the return journey back? Leaf says to Meera in the show that Bran won't stay in the cave forever and Meera will have to help him and it makes sense that Leaf meant Meera to take Bran south and this idea doesn't come from Benjen alone.
4) Benjen saying the walls are made up of spells have been long known to the book readers when Coldhalds first takes Bran to the Bloodraven. Based on all the points above, I don't see much wrong in Benjen's goodbye.
This entire discussion is moot without knowing if Coldhands and Benjen are the same character. As book readers, we don't even know if Benjen still has a role to play and we don't know who Coldhands is. We know that Coldhands was indeed sent by Brynden rivers and Bran is supposed to be the new Greenseer. If Coldhands and Benjen Stark is a single character (like Euron and Victarian Greyjoys), it does seem like a hasty attempt by the directors to give the show watchers as much as history as possible from Coldhands/Benjen Stark's POV and it doesn't seem like that the character is evil.
Also, show does make a mockery of character arcs. Arya Stark's story arc with the Faceless God, Everything that happens in Dorne, The fights at the Riverlands, Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood without banners, Coldhands and the journey to the Bloodraven, The fight at the fist of Men, Jaime Lannister's slow march to redemption, Euron Greyjoy's character development along with Dragonbinder and Moqorro, Victarian Greyjoy have either all been omitted or conveniently merged with other characters. I'm guessing that your theories are more a result of this instead of genuine new theory.
Of course, I could be wrong and you can point this post and laugh at me later
How is Benjen = Coldhands still a theory?
Ah or do you mean showBenjen = Coldhands, guess I messed that one up.
Ah or do you mean showBenjen = Coldhands, guess I messed that one up.
Can anyone give me the gist or a link for the possibly related theory that The Others are not actually evil? Are they maybe on their way in order to save Westeros from the Dragons and their Mad Queen?
Martin said that they aren't the same, but it could have been 'from a point of view'.
In the show, Benjen seems to be similar to Coldhands with his black hands and being an autonomous Other.
I think that Benjen has still some role in the books.
About Redsky's theory, while it seems quite credible, I don't think that it is true. Benjen being half Other explains his inability to pass the wall, and Three Eyed Raven hadn't much time to tell things to Bran. I also don't believe that Bloodraven is evil considering his life as Brynden Rivers but then I think that there is more to the Others than simply being terminators.
I like the theory of Bran bringing the wall down more than bringing the wall down with a horn. For what is worth, I predicted that the wall will fall that way immediately after Hold the Door episode.
Yes, It seems like Coldhands + Benjen in the books if he does have any more part = Show Zombie Benjen.
Yeah, that's not a starter. You can't save Dragons and the Mad Queen by converting people to become wights and demons.
Of course they're evil. It's just that the dragons aren't "good" either.
It is based almost completely on GRRM not going for a good vs evil story. Anyway, the others didn't help westeros the last time Targs attacked and Danny ain't mad.
An another basis for theory was that others have some Stark relation and want to help them but it seems that Starks have no need for help with Jon becoming King of the North.
Redsky, I did read your long post but it seems to me that the directors of the show are giving the show watchers (heathens) a quick history of all that happened with Coldhands in the previous chapters of ADWD.
1) If Coldhands and Benjen Stark are indeed one character, then it explains the convenient timing of rescue, as Coldhands delivers Bran to the Bloodraven, but as a wight, he can't enter the cave. It also makes sense for him to say that he was indeed sent by the three eyed raven as he definitely was. Him saying Bran is the next three eyed raven is no biggie too, as Bran and Meera know it already. All these three points seem to be telling the show watchers about the past history of Coldhands character.
2) Regarding Benjen's death, book doesn't make it clear that the white walkers were created by the children of the forest. It only says that the demons emerged from the Long night and the Children of the forest and first men fought valiantly against it. So this entire 'corrupt them with the dragonglass shard' is completely new to us book readers too. So can't help with your questions and doubts on that point.
3) Regarding Bran's journey to the wall, We don't know know how the story is written in the books regarding Bran's journey from Bloodraven's cave. Whether he needs to go back to the Wall or to the realm of men is not clear to us at this point. I have always about this while reading the books. Does Bran have to take his place in the tree or will he make the return journey back? Leaf says to Meera in the show that Bran won't stay in the cave forever and Meera will have to help him and it makes sense that Leaf meant Meera to take Bran south and this idea doesn't come from Benjen alone.
4) Benjen saying the walls are made up of spells have been long known to the book readers when Coldhalds first takes Bran to the Bloodraven. Based on all the points above, I don't see much wrong in Benjen's goodbye.
This entire discussion is moot without knowing if Coldhands and Benjen are the same character. As book readers, we don't even know if Benjen still has a role to play and we don't know who Coldhands is. We know that Coldhands was indeed sent by Brynden rivers and Bran is supposed to be the new Greenseer. If Coldhands and Benjen Stark is a single character (like Euron and Victarian Greyjoys), it does seem like a hasty attempt by the directors to give the show watchers as much as history as possible from Coldhands/Benjen Stark's POV and it doesn't seem like that the character is evil.
Also, show does make a mockery of character arcs. Arya Stark's story arc with the Faceless God, Everything that happens in Dorne, The fights at the Riverlands, Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood without banners, Coldhands and the journey to the Bloodraven, The fight at the fist of Men, Jaime Lannister's slow march to redemption, Euron Greyjoy's character development along with Dragonbinder and Moqorro, Victarian Greyjoy have either all been omitted or conveniently merged with other characters. I'm guessing that your theories are more a result of this instead of genuine new theory.
Of course, I could be wrong and you can point this post and laugh at me later
The problem here is that you're using book references to back up your arguments which may well be true. But from a tv viewers perspective I only have reference to what I see and what you're telling me and what the show is portraying contradict one another.
1) We don't know he was sent by BloodRaven, at no point is it mentioned in the show. Obviously Bran and Meera know he's the new Three Eyed Raven but how would Benjen know when he's not been in contact with Bran and has no idea whats been happening.
3) I haven't rewatched all the scenes yet, I've only watched the last 4 scenes and the only person that mentions to go back to the realm of men is Benjen. BloodRaven tells them they have to leave but isn't specific on where to.
4) Again, how does Benjen know about all this though? Who told him? BloodRaven? But you said it yourself he couldn't enter the Cave so how has he told him this as it doesn't seem to be part of the Nights Watch school of Rangery.
I guess neither of us know really if this is legit or not. You're using book references to back it up but then you say yourself that they're changing a fair bit in the books anyway. So although from your perspective it doesn't seem to add up, it could very well still be true. I can't remember if you or someone else says that George likes to add foreshadowing. Well whats more foreshadowing than this line:
Benjen: "Strong magic, to protect men from what lies beyond it and while it stands the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass."
Also, while we're talking about White Walkers. For this show to end of a happy note wouldn't that require that the Men (once they defeat the Night Kings army) head north and destroy the White Walkers city/castle? The one that was shown way back (can't remember the Season) after the White Walker takes one of Crastors Sons. If they don't then all they're doing is delaying the inevitable?
The problem here is that you're using book references to back up your arguments which may well be true. But from a tv viewers perspective I only have reference to what I see and what you're telling me and what the show is portraying contradict one another.
1) We don't know he was sent by BloodRaven, at no point is it mentioned in the show. Obviously Bran and Meera know he's the new Three Eyed Raven but how would Benjen know when he's not been in contact with Bran and has no idea whats been happening.
3) I haven't rewatched all the scenes yet, I've only watched the last 4 scenes and the only person that mentions to go back to the realm of men is Benjen. BloodRaven tells them they have to leave but isn't specific on where to.
4) Again, how does Benjen know about all this though? Who told him? BloodRaven? But you said it yourself he couldn't enter the Cave so how has he told him this as it doesn't seem to be part of the Nights Watch school of Rangery.
I guess neither of us know really if this is legit or not. You're using book references to back it up but then you say yourself that they're changing a fair bit in the books anyway. So although from your perspective it doesn't seem to add up, it could very well still be true. I can't remember if you or someone else says that George likes to add foreshadowing. Well whats more foreshadowing than this line:
Benjen: "Strong magic, to protect men from what lies beyond it and while it stands the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass."
Well what's the point of posting in the book thread if you think of a theory based on the show and expect us to comment on it without referring to any events in the book?
Amen brother!!!! Preach it!
Think you misunderstand. I'm interested to read the book stuff as it's part of the puzzle. But at the same time, it can't be used as 100% guaranteed evidence to support an argument given that you've already said the show has altered many parts of the book. I can only base my theories off the show, you can base them off both. Who ends up being right I dunno? Nobody knows, that's why I came in here to get more information.
If i'm annoying then it's no problem, i'll go elsewhere and talk nerd!
Think you misunderstand. I'm interested to read the book stuff as it's part of the puzzle. But at the same time, it can't be used as 100% guaranteed evidence to support an argument given that you've already said the show has altered many parts of the book. I can only base my theories off the show, you can base them off both. Who ends up being right I dunno? Nobody knows, that's why I came in here to get more information.
But then you called using that information "a problem" so.....
Well it is a problem, it can't be used as accurate information can it? It can certainly be considered and analysed but it's not 100% creditable.
It's like doing a logic problem and being given an answer but then in brackets it tells you that it's 90% accurate. There's always that 10% wriggle space which puts doubt in your mind.
It's ok though, I get a sense that you don't like me JustAFan, all your comments have been negative. So i'll just leave you to it and find a forum.
That's true of everything we are analyzing to come up with our theories, even scenes from the show. The accuracy of whether it is hinting at for the future what our pet theory says it is hinting at can not be known at this time, so then there is no real point in speculating.
I can't remember if you or someone else says that George likes to add foreshadowing. Well whats more foreshadowing than this line:
Benjen: "Strong magic, to protect men from what lies beyond it and while it stands the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass."
I said it
GRRM likes foreshadowing (and less obvious than that, you'll only catch it after the event tbh).
The show writers like beating the point to death and waving a massive flag saying 'spoiler here'
(like mentioning wildfire and the mad king trying to burn Kings Landing to the ground at least once in every single episode this season)
Like i said, its a very feasible theory. No one will pay it much mind because its based on the delivery of one line in a show who's dialogue and writing stopped being relevant about 2 seasons ago. Every week they trip themselves up with stupid stuff that characters should know, shouldn't know or contradicts what they were saying a week back. Speculating based on a bit of dialogue from the monkeys writing the tv show and nothing else is just very ... pointless. Its not a reliable source basically
Think you misunderstand. I'm interested to read the book stuff as it's part of the puzzle. But at the same time, it can't be used as 100% guaranteed evidence to support an argument given that you've already said the show has altered many parts of the book. I can only base my theories off the show, you can base them off both. Who ends up being right I dunno? Nobody knows, that's why I came in here to get more information.
If i'm annoying then it's no problem, i'll go elsewhere and talk nerd!
You are not annoying, I'm not annoyed.
You came up with a theory that Benjen Stark is evil based on what you saw on the show. I/We refuted some points with what we know based on the books. As with all theories, there's no guarantee on what is true, but we all adopt the theory that sounds more plausible.
For instance, there is no way in hell that a show watcher can guess Rhaegar Targaryen as the father of Jon Snow, but it's widely accepted now because of the inputs from the book readers. There's no way that Tyrion Lannister could even be suspected of having Targaryen blood if not for the book readers inputs on Aerys infatuation with Lady Lannister. Any speculation on TV thread relies heavily on theories based on the book material. Which makes your theory highly unlikely, but not impossible.
In this last page, you have read a lot of information that you didn't know so that you can base them on both books and show.
As for the foreshadowing part, Benjen Stark never says anything like that in the books, GRRM for all good purposes killed off Benjen Stark while he's ranging in Book 1, the fat cnut. So it's just the writers screaming 'look at me, here's a plot'.
GRRM and the show runners have all confirmed they are heading to the same end goal.
The show has chosen to omit certain characters and arcs for the purpose of speeding the narrative along and as condescending as it sounds, making it easier for general viewers to understand.
As other posters have said the show has combined side characters into more recognisable faces as for a TV series they already have a cast way beyond your average show.
As a show only theory your idea is good but it is highly unlikely. We all saw how easily people got confused by new or returning characters and their motives. Introducing Coldhands to viewers now would have caused more confusion. There has been a long standing theory (which GRRM has denied) that Benjen is Coldhands. The show just took the lazy way out and reintroduced Benjen as recognisable face and for shock.
IMO Benjen will have no real relevance in the books. His disappearance was mearly a plot device to get Jon and the NW to venture north and encounter the Wights at the Fist of the First Men and the eventual mutiny and the series of events that followed.
It is hilarious that you came to the book thread to share your theory and then didn't want to accept the input and extra knowledge of the readers. You should make your theory into a YouTube video though, you'll get loads of hits, it is well thought out.
I love the books. The horn is a cheap plot device though and doesn't seem like something GRRM would use.If you hate the books and show so much, why do you bother with it then?
The show is shit but they reveal plot points of the books so I watch it.
The theory was that the Others were actually a mutated human race that were dying from existence due to their dwindling numbers and lack of brending partners. That they aren't really evil but rather just want to survive and humanity are actually oppressing them into extinction. It makes sense with the reveal that they actually are humans turned by the Children of the Forest.
It also goes with GRRM way of doing things. The fact that all sides are in a grey area and are relatable in some way and that the real evil is war. Also that the little man is crushed by the games of the big man in power but that has no relevance to this theory.
There is a strong case for The Others not being evil.
Thanks, I quite like this possibility.
Yeah... It's not though is it. Come on now, this is a real shit devils advocate role you're playing. You might consider the show a failure when compared to the books but any reasonable person can understand that it's far from shit.
Hm, it's not a shit show if you want to remain objective but if your priorities are writing, dialogue and story it's not unreasonable to call it shit. Personally I think it's a decent entertaining show. Obviously writing and dialogue are not good enough for greatness but it's still fun. You just have to turn your brain of
I'm just not sure if watching it to see plot points revealed is the best idea but that's just because I think the deviations from book and show will be even more massive than most people think right now. Could be wrong of course, hope we'll find out one day.
I'm just not sure if watching it to see plot points revealed is the best idea but that's just because I think the deviations from book and show will be even more massive than most people think right now. Could be wrong of course, hope we'll find out one day.
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It is really shit. Hidden by lots of cool affects, filming techniques and large scale set pieces that it's unprecedented budget allows it. If this quality of show was from season 1 it wouldn't be the behemoth that it is now.
Are you saying the first season was shittier than this or implying that the show has become popular as it has moved away from replicating books to a more dramatic show?
The others are humanoid creatures who were seen 8000 years ago and haven't been heard since the Night's King reign began. There hasn't been a war with the Others for 8000 years still the humanity is driving them to extinction? In ASOIAF and AWOIAF, there are multiple times that the others are referred as the evil and darkness, which is offset by AA and the lightbringer and the War of the Dawn etc.
What is GRRM's way of doing things? He's a story teller who writes a novel. He has characters who are noble/cowardly/chivarlous/scheming/lustful like any other novels. This entire idea that ASOIAF is one big swirl of grey is not true. Just as the notion that GRRM kills off lead characters for the shock value. He kills like how he had planned to kill his characters.
I think he meant the show's current popularity is due to the first few seasons sticking closely to the books and their intricacies.
The Others are only referred to as evil by humans, but that doesn't make them so because the humans don't know anything about the Others having never actually met any of them, they just believe the fairytales they were told as children. As a comparison, the common folk think of Tyrion as an evil, monkey-demon who killed his King because they don't know him and are quick to believe the lies told about him because of the way he looks.
No. I'm saying if season one was the same quality that season 6 was, the show wouldn't have the same popularity that it does now and wouldn't have the budget it is given now. It's riding on its early season coattails in which the creators relied on the books quality. Now they have the payoff the show creators are running the stories and are doing a shit job of storytelling.
I never stated he killed off characters for shock. In fact I have stated the opposite. Don't accuse me of shit that you assume I stated.
George himself has multiple times stated he didn't want to write a story like Tolkien where the good guys get together to fight the big bad evil guys. He has said his story will not be like that so I have no reason to believe that the Others will be evil like you think.
The WoIaF books are based from the perspective of humanity and more specifically maesters (Who have been proven to be less then good themselves). Same for the book series with their human perspective. Humans perceiving things as evil doesn't make them evil. That's proven in most time periods throughout history.
There really are no wrong theories because end of the day we have no idea which way GRRM will take the books or which way the show will go. Some theories seem sillier to any individual than others and all have some weakness in them
I think that is part of the problem with the show is that everyone develops their own or adopts other theories. When something happens that does not fit the view unless it is an epic TV moment people get a bit miffed.
Then there are moments we all knew were coming that but me they happen will underwhelm many just because we all knew it would happen.
I think that is part of the problem with the show is that everyone develops their own or adopts other theories. When something happens that does not fit the view unless it is an epic TV moment people get a bit miffed.
Then there are moments we all knew were coming that but me they happen will underwhelm many just because we all knew it would happen.
This. We assumed the Lannister were evil for a long time until we saw their perspective in later books.