Lord of the Rings is great, but it's simpler than ASOIAF. It's good vs evil. Some of the stuff in Tolkien's works, including the songs, are amazing. It's more effort put into creating a world than almost any other book or series of books. It's the foundation of everything since then. I'd rather read ASOIAF though. I knew how LOTR would end, but I have no clue what the fat man will do.
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
- Thread starter Massive Spanner
- Start date
That's a very good point. In a way you could say that ASoIF is good vs evil at the core, if you think about the White Walkers, but who does that make the good guys? Jon? And so far, it has barely been about the White Walkers. It's been more of a sideshow. Are the Lannisters the bad guys? You could certainly say that about Joffrey and Cersei, who have been the closest to outright evil. Tywin probably too, though his is more of an ordered, considered cruelty. But Jaime isn't any more of a bad guy than a good guy, and Tyrion is probably one of the most genuinely good characters in the books.
And even with the Starks, there's a good case to be made for Catelyn being a vengeful bitch, and most of the rest are more main characters than heroes.
If there's anything I love the most about A Song of Ice and Fire, it's that it is, to use a cliche, is about shades of grey.
And even with the Starks, there's a good case to be made for Catelyn being a vengeful bitch, and most of the rest are more main characters than heroes.
If there's anything I love the most about A Song of Ice and Fire, it's that it is, to use a cliche, is about shades of grey.
I think it's a different approach thematically too.
In LoTR the story drives the characters (Large era defining events happen to them) were as ASoIF is character driven (Plots, rapes and rapey plots).
In LoTR the story drives the characters (Large era defining events happen to them) were as ASoIF is character driven (Plots, rapes and rapey plots).
I don't find his writing very enthralling in honesty. His imagination and the world he has created i do. I watched the first series on TV then read all the books, the story is good but i find his writing a tad repetitive. Not saying he's a bad writer but for me personally he over endulgies but then maybe that's the point, you fully emerse yourself in that world and love all the detail. Personally i love the characters but think it needs to be a bit quicker, i just dont understand how you can write almost 5000 pages and cover a few years in an epic saga. Surely Arya and Bran etc will have something significant in the greater terms and it goes against the basic realism of the books (in terms of how it's not your average boy saves world tale) would suggest that they have to grow up and realize their potential. To get to Book 5 or 6 is it? and Bran has basically got to where he is is a bit mental.
I read that he wanted to do a 5 year gap and pick it up but would have to miss too much out, well fair enough that would have been awful but by the same token surely he'll have to extend it beyond the 7 books he says it will be?
I don't know maybe it's just too detailed at points. You just keep waiting for the big stuff to happen, for the real outcome to get closer and nothing much changes it's just building and building and you don't get any sense that the building is going to end and the story is going to leap forward at any point.
I read that he wanted to do a 5 year gap and pick it up but would have to miss too much out, well fair enough that would have been awful but by the same token surely he'll have to extend it beyond the 7 books he says it will be?
I don't know maybe it's just too detailed at points. You just keep waiting for the big stuff to happen, for the real outcome to get closer and nothing much changes it's just building and building and you don't get any sense that the building is going to end and the story is going to leap forward at any point.
A chain would've meant a lot of explosions. I think one big explosion probably cost less to make than a bunch of smaller ones.
The chain would have meant lots of boats, too. They'd have had to show more in CGI.
I'm going to have to disagree. I love long, epic series. If you think ASoIF is slow, then you shouldn't read Wheel of Time. The entire series, with one book to go, is ~11,000 pages, and has spanned maybe three years.
Cina, you should just stop posting in the other thread before you get banned 
ASoIF isn't very well written at all in all honesty. From a purely literary standpoint, anyway. It's the scale of the series that is impressive.
Cina, you should just stop posting in the other thread before you get banned
Seems so, if they're going to be so anal about a characters fecking name.
I wasn't really thinking of that. You give information that, while obvious to you, isn't obvious to them. Even if you think it's obvious because of something that happened in the tv series. I made the same mistake yesterday (saying how it was obvious that the Tyrell's were now firmly in the Lannister's corner. While indicated by the tv series, me saying that makes it pretty clear to them that it doesn't turn out in the books that it's all some big ploy.
So essentially, just don't mention anything that isn't completely implicit.
So essentially, just don't mention anything that isn't completely implicit.
Despite me saying Sansa stayed, they didn't believe me. They're a bit thick so I don't think they get all the implications of some things we say.
They asked the question "isn't Stannis expecting a baby off Melisandre", but I mean seriously, it's in the TV show that he is talking away to Davos and CLEARLY knows what happened, why the feck else would he ask Davos to bring Melisandre there in the very first place? I wasn't even speculating in the slightest, just pointing out something that actually happened in the TV show.
Basically we just shouldn't post in that thread at all unless it's something like "ooh wow wildfire explosion AWESOME!".
Basically we just shouldn't post in that thread at all unless it's something like "ooh wow wildfire explosion AWESOME!".
Pretty much.
I added more to that post cause I realized how thick they were being.
Did they discuss why Melisandre isn't with them in the show?
Davos begged him not to bring her, in exchange for agreeing to be his hand, I thought.
Going back to the LOTR point, I loved reading that before I watched the films (must have read it 7 or 8 times). Apart from that, this is the first fantasy series I've read since then and it's absolutely blown me away. Not being a massive fiction reader, I couldn't comment too much about the standard of writing, but if anyone could recommend me anything similar (if such a thing exists) I'd be very grateful as I have somewhat re-discovered a love of reading fiction after years of largely only reading academic texts, news and internet forums! Is the Winds of Time in the same mould?
I'm not sure if it's similar, but Glen Cook's the Black Company are great dark fiction books. It's more magic to it, but it's really awesome. Tigana, by Guy Gavriel Kay, is also a good read.
Do you mean Wheel of Time? There are others who can attest to it better, but I haven't tried reading it in a long time.
Right now, I'm reading The Blade Itself by Joe Abercrombie.
Do you mean Wheel of Time? There are others who can attest to it better, but I haven't tried reading it in a long time.
Right now, I'm reading The Blade Itself by Joe Abercrombie.
Cool, cheers for this. Yes I meant Wheel of Time - the reviews I have seen of it compare it to GRRM in that it has some killer plot twists and slow build up with lots of character arcs
Have you read the books?
White walkers returning after 1000 years. Dragons are back.
Those events haven't really kicked in yet, but it is there in the background waiting to erupt and they ere absolutely the underlying current of the entire series.
Totally, but 7 books in, actual Dragons or Walkers doing anything of note has taken up maybe 100 pages, tops. The majority of the Westerosi have totally ignored the potential threat of the return of the white walker since it was heralded in book 1, Dany's dragons have been largely sidelined as pets until Drogon had a BBQ in the arena.
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If we remove the dragon's and white walkers from the story, the difference (currently) is marginal, hell some people in the TV thread would prefer it as they moaned about the snatch spawned shadow assassin a lot. It's the intra-factional politics and character interaction that is the main driver of the story (part of the reason it's taking so long too).
Remove the ring from LotR and the whole story falls apart, the central hero character, Frodo, would still be in the shire. Everything hinges upon the destruction of the ring or the restoration of Sauron, all characters are moving and acting because of that. You can't say the same about Thrones.
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If we remove the dragon's and white walkers from the story, the difference (currently) is marginal, hell some people in the TV thread would prefer it as they moaned about the snatch spawned shadow assassin a lot. It's the intra-factional politics and character interaction that is the main driver of the story (part of the reason it's taking so long too).
Remove the ring from LotR and the whole story falls apart, the central hero character, Frodo, would still be in the shire. Everything hinges upon the destruction of the ring or the restoration of Sauron, all characters are moving and acting because of that. You can't say the same about Thrones.
WOT, if you discount the annoying bits about sniffing, coy references to bosoms and U-rated swearing, was well-plotted and exciting for maybe 5 and a half books. Book 7 was shite, book 8 ok, book 9 ok, book 10 utter shite, book 11 shite. That's 3 shite books out of 11, with quite a lot happening in the un-shite books.
ASoIaF was good for 3 books, then has gone downhill. Feast was half a book, Dance was half a book buried in about 300 pages of padding. The problem was that they weren't halves of the same book. Yet GRRM got good reviews from various fanbois, so he's not going to pare down all that bloat for Winds.
Jon is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and will get the top job (whatever that is).
Bran is going to be head honcho of everyone beyond the wall.
The Freys will get what's coming to them.
Rickon will probably be King in the North.
One of Dany / Aegon will be King or Queen of the rest.
Tyrion will get to drink and feck the rest of his life away. For such a brilliant character he won't matter very much at the end.
Bet that's mostly accurate. Everyone else is fairly peripheral. In fact, all but Jon probably don't matter very much.
Bran is going to be head honcho of everyone beyond the wall.
The Freys will get what's coming to them.
Rickon will probably be King in the North.
One of Dany / Aegon will be King or Queen of the rest.
Tyrion will get to drink and feck the rest of his life away. For such a brilliant character he won't matter very much at the end.
Bet that's mostly accurate. Everyone else is fairly peripheral. In fact, all but Jon probably don't matter very much.
Didn't GRRM only write the last 2 books because fans were complaining about the fact that he was going to skip forward a few years for the last 2?
I think he has a much clearer mind about the final 2 books than he did about ADWD and AFoC so I think they should be great, if he doesn't die.
I think he has a much clearer mind about the final 2 books than he did about ADWD and AFoC so I think they should be great, if he doesn't die.
Honestly, I'm struggling a bit to see why he couldn't just skip forward. The key developments were basically:
Jon dies and comes back to life
Dany's dragons grow and she gets an army
Jaime pays for some of his crimes
Cersei pays for some of her crimes
Stannis gets his arse kicked by the Boltons but recovers Rickon
Sansa hides
Arya becomes a Faceless Woman
Doran Martell plots revenge
Everything else, including the Greyjoy succession and happenings in Mereen, doesn't really matter. Covering that would take a third of a book, if a good editor was allowed to edit GRRM's manuscript.
Dany's dragons grow and she gets an army
Jaime pays for some of his crimes
Cersei pays for some of her crimes
Stannis gets his arse kicked by the Boltons but recovers Rickon
Sansa hides
Arya becomes a Faceless Woman
Doran Martell plots revenge
Everything else, including the Greyjoy succession and happenings in Mereen, doesn't really matter. Covering that would take a third of a book, if a good editor was allowed to edit GRRM's manuscript.
I admit that my favourite scene in Dance, "the North remembers" bit, wouldn't have happened in a skip-forward. That's ok though.
Is that not speculation Spinoza ?
As far as we know Stannis is dead.
As far as we know Stannis is dead.
I would have hated for that scene not to be written.
I'm going to disagree with you on WoT, though. CoT wasn't good. Maybe it was even pretty bad, even though there were bits I enjoyed as a WoT fan. I haven't reread it, certainly, except for certain scenes. But that is the only bad book in my opinion. I'm shocked you think KoD was shite, though. And the two next books were quite good too, in my opinion, though obviously they were mainly written by Brandon Sanderson. Actually, I am a big fan of him now. Have you read The Way of Kings, the first (and currently only) book in his planned multi-book epic? It's excellent.
Though this isn't the place for that discussion, I suppose.
I wonder which ones will have the bigger effect on Westeros? Be interesting if Dany turns up with her dragons just as the White Walkers decide to move south.
I've decided I don't like the TV thread. It feels odd reading about people ranking the characters on their 'badassery.' Philistines, the lot of them.
Just finished Dance of Dragons after spanning it out as long as possible just for the knowing im going to have to wait for more.
Best read in years without doubt
Best read in years without doubt
You missed the discussion over whether Sandor could take Bronn, eh?
Also, Chutney, a friend of mine did this and it pissed me off to no end. She decided to re-read all of them starting about a week before ADWD came out. Her roommate, brother, and I all read it over a few weeks. Then we'd talk about it and she'd walk in and get pissed at OMG SPOILERS. She did this until almost new years. Then we stopped caring if she got upset because she had plenty of time to read the books. She could go somewhere else if we were discussing it.
I haven't read any of the books but was listening to The Rains of Castemere on youtube. Then I happened to do the undoable.
I scrolled down.
Somebody spoiled it for me. The Red Wedding part.
feck.
I scrolled down.
Somebody spoiled it for me. The Red Wedding part
. feck.
I haven't read any of the books but was listening to The Rains of Castemere on youtube. Then I happened to do the undoable.
I scrolled down.
Somebody spoiled it for me. The Red Wedding part
feck.
Yeah, u know they sow the head of his wolf unto his shoulders you know.
Only Ramsey's letter says this, but my gut feeling is that Martin will kill Stannis off
I'm not sure if he will. I don't believe Ramsey's letter, and I think Stannis still might have a role to play.
My reason for Stannis being killed is based on the premise that Jon survives and becomes Mellisandre's new 'Hope'. Pure speculation though, and knowing Martin he'll do the opposite of what I predict
I think Jon will be the new hope too, but I don't think it necessarily means the death of Stannis.
I think Ramsay says Stannis is dead in a letter to Jon. That news causes Jon to break his vows and ride against the Boltons.