Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?

DatIrishFella said:
I thought that was a relatively level headed response if I do say so myself. And without the show I'd have never being introduced to this amazing world and its characters. And yeah, I find peoples (primarily book readers) distaste for season five equates to "what a shit show this is" to be baffling. Besides Dorne, it's being, for me, nothing but stellar. Changes to the show won't effect the books.
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Not just season 3. There's plenty wrong beginning from Season 2. But as I say I speak and judge from the standpoint of it being an adaption
 
DatIrishFella said:
I thought that was a relatively level headed response if I do say so myself. And without the show I'd have never being introduced to this amazing world and its characters. And yeah, I find peoples (primarily book readers) distaste for season five equates to "what a shit show this is" to be baffling. Besides Dorne, it's being, for me, nothing but stellar. Changes to the show won't effect the books.
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I enjoyed S5 but I don't see anything wrong with people criticising it either. Bar S1 I don't think any seasons of the show have fully done the books justice and people were complaining about aspects of the show on here long before S5 aired.
 
Cina said:
I enjoyed S5 but I don't see anything wrong with people criticising it either. Bar S1 I don't think any seasons of the show have fully done the books justice and people were complaining about aspects of the show on here long before S5 aired.
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Neither do I, but when discussion devolves into "do you wish the TV show didn't exist" you can't help but shake your head. It's as if people don't know about Martin's style as he's gotten older, maybe even less passionate about writing.

A Game of Thrones - 1996
A Clash of Kings - 1998
A Storm of Swords - 2000
A Feast for Crows - 2005
A Dance With Dragons - 2011

There's a pattern forming there.
 
Don't even know why he's apologising. They're his books, he can take as long as he damn well pleases with them.
 
I'd be surprised if he ever finishes them. The last two were, essentially, one book. His pace is getting slower and slower. His main incentive to have TWOW done by Spring is pretty much gone now, and I could see him delaying it even further because that's gone. The books are getting wider and wider too; would be shocked if he can manage a decent conclusion in only two.
 
sullydnl said:
Don't even know why he's apologising. They're his books, he can take as long as he damn well pleases with them.
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Because when you do a series of books, ethically you are making a contract with the readers that you are going to finish it. No-one will buy your books, if this wasn't the case. People don't want to read unfinished series.

If GRRM really doesn't finish this series, I think that it will have a very bad impact in the entire fantasy community. Likely, the editors and publishing houses won't accept anymore long series (especially to authors which aren't very famous or to authors which have problems with deadlines) and so we will see more standalones in the genre. Which is a bit of a shame, cause long sagas works best in fantasy.

Also, the Wheel of Time had a similar history. Robert Jordan lost its way in the story (very similar to Martin) and eventually died without finishing it. As the biggest epic fantasy saga since The Lord of the Rings, the effect on community was bad. ASOIAF now has finally reached similar popularity (to a degree thanks to the show), so it would be a shame if something similar happens. And unlike in Jordan's case, Martin is very healthy to do it.

Of course, at the end of the day he doesn't have a legal obligation to finish it, and can just retire in tens of millions of dollars he has earned from this series. But does he have a moral obligation to do so? I think that he does. He has earned a shitload of money because of this unwritten contract that he'll finish the story. And so, he should do his best to really finish it. Or if he can't/doesn't, it would be a decent thing to leave it to someone else to finish it.
 
sullydnl said:
Don't even know why he's apologising. They're his books, he can take as long as he damn well pleases with them.
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True, he doesn't have to finish them, but there's generally a certain obligation for a writer to finish a work that they've committed to, especially when the series has developed the fanbase it has.

If he really doesn't want to finish them and can't be arsed anymore, then he should allow someone else to finish the final two, while giving them a detailed outline of what he intends to happen.
 
I think the next season will diverge from the books massively. I had been optimistic Martin would have WoW finished by April but that blog post pretty much confirms the two entities have reached a fork in the road and are taking separate routes to a similar destination.

The standard of the show has dropped off massively and it can't be a coincidence that lines up with them having less source material to reference. Saying that Hardhome is probably my favourite episode.
 
Revan said:
Because when you do a series of books, ethically you are making a contract with the readers that you are going to finish it. No-one will buy your books, if this wasn't the case. People don't want to read unfinished series.

If GRRM really doesn't finish this series, I think that it will have a very bad impact in the entire fantasy community. Likely, the editors and publishing houses won't accept anymore long series (especially to authors which aren't very famous or to authors which have problems with deadlines) and so we will see more standalones in the genre. Which is a bit of a shame, cause long sagas works best in fantasy.

Also, the Wheel of Time had a similar history. Robert Jordan lost its way in the story (very similar to Martin) and eventually died without finishing it. As the biggest epic fantasy saga since The Lord of the Rings, the effect on community was bad. ASOIAF now has finally reached similar popularity (to a degree thanks to the show), so it would be a shame if something similar happens. And unlike in Jordan's case, Martin is very healthy to do it.

Of course, at the end of the day he doesn't have a legal obligation to finish it, and can just retire in tens of millions of dollars he has earned from this series. But does he have a moral obligation to do so? I think that he does. He has earned a shitload of money because of this unwritten contract that he'll finish the story. And so, he should do his best to really finish it. Or if he can't/doesn't, it would be a decent thing to leave it to someone else to finish it.
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Cheesy said:
True, he doesn't have to finish them, but there's generally a certain obligation for a writer to finish a work that they've committed to, especially when the series has developed the fanbase it has.

If he really doesn't want to finish them and can't be arsed anymore, then he should allow someone else to finish the final two, while giving them a detailed outline of what he intends to happen.
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Aye, he does have an obligation to his readers to try and finish the books. How quickly he does that is up to him though, there's no need for him to apologise just because it won't be done before the new season of the TV show comes out. It's not like he's saying it will never be finished....
 
Tbh, I'm more worried that when it does come out, it'll just be bad. Writers who aren't really bothered don't usually come out with their best material, plus the books have been following a similar, if far less steep downward trajectory to (apparently) the tv show.
 
Earthquake said:
Tbh, I'm more worried that when it does come out, it'll just be bad. Writers who aren't really bothered don't usually come out with their best material, plus the books have been following a similar, if far less steep downward trajectory to (apparently) the tv show.
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I think this is very likely. We saw the same thing happening with The Wheel of Time.

The best thing Martin can do at this stage (IMO) is to leave the series to be finished by Joe Abercrombie (of course, by showing him the notes, plans etc) and to act himself as an editor or so. Of course, that isn't ever going to happen, but it would be a plan to finish the series within 2020 or so.
 
sullydnl said:
Aye, he does have an obligation to his readers to try and finish the books. How quickly he does that is up to him though, there's no need for him to apologise just because it won't be done before the new season of the TV show comes out. It's not like he's saying it will never be finished....
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True, but even then, it's not as if fans are trying to rush him into finishing a book every year. He last released one in 2011, which was, for all intents and purposes, the other part of the 4th book. Basically, he's released one full book since 2001. Most writers should be expected to work at some sort of deadline, and GRRM is quite clearly not good at doing so.

He doesn't have to finish it before the TV show either, but it's certainly something that you can see why fans would be pissed about because despite the show's quality, it's very hit and miss (especially now), and fans will have what is regarded as a far superior version of the material spoiled by something that's often very good, but sort of falls short in comparison.
 
Revan said:
I think this is very likely. We saw the same thing happening with The Wheel of Time.

The best thing Martin can do at this stage (IMO) is to leave the series to be finished by Joe Abercrombie (of course, by showing him the notes, plans etc) and to act himself as an editor or so. Of course, that isn't ever going to happen, but it would be a plan to finish the series within 2020 or so.
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He could even function in a screenwriter sort of role, providing much of the dialogue. His prose is average anyway, so could mostly be done by another writer. Where GRRM excels is plot, character and dialogue, and if he was there to continually provide the outlines and write the dialogue parts of certain scenes/chapters, he could still be heavily involved in the series while ensuring it actually gets finished.
 
If he just gives it up then feck him. What a shitty thing to do to fans who eagerly await his series ending and finding out about all the plot threads he has woven year on year. Honestly, I don't think je would do that though but I do worry he may lose heart seeing all his secrets he has slowly and skillfully fed to his fans get punched into their faces with blocky and obvious writing, lacking in any craft or subtlety.

I have no faith in the show doing GRRM's series justice, reiterated by the absolute shit they served up last season. For all the hate his last book has gotten and them being considered his worst books, they were easily a level above anything the show writers made up for themselves. Seriously, pretty much everything they did themselves was absolute crap and I have no doubt that given their own minds with this show, they will ruin it.
 
I think the book fans are more disappointed. It seems like he really has forgotten about the people who actually loved the book before the series was released. People might just watch the show and not bother to buy the book when he gets around to finishing it.
 
Cheesy said:
He could even function in a screenwriter sort of role, providing much of the dialogue. His prose is average anyway, so could mostly be done by another writer. Where GRRM excels is plot, character and dialogue, and if he was there to continually provide the outlines and write the dialogue parts of certain scenes/chapters, he could still be heavily involved in the series while ensuring it actually gets finished.
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"I've wrote in this new character..."
"How is he murdered?"
"Uh, he isn't...?"
"Fired."
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
I think the book fans are more disappointed. It seems like he really has forgotten about the people who actually loved the book before the series was released. People might just watch the show and not bother to buy the book when he gets around to finishing it.
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I am not too bothered any more. If the show does actually give away his plot points then I probably wont buy the books.
 
Gol123 said:
I am not too bothered any more. If the show does actually give away his plot points then I probably wont buy the books.
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Same here because everyone is anxious to know what will happen so they'll watch. I for one won't be able to resist and wait for the book and book won't be as exciting after watching the show.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
Same here because everyone is anxious to know what will happen so they'll watch. I for one won't be able to resist and wait for the book and book won't be as exciting after watching the show.
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As mentioned above, his prose is nothing special. Its his characters, complex interweaving plot threads and all the twists and surprises that he has slowly teased out for us that makes him so special. Unfortunately, with the show likely giving a dumbed down, Hollywood version of it with shit writing and no subtlety, I suspect it wont be half as interesting to read his book knowing what happens.
 
duffer said:
Just don't watch the show until after the book comes out.
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Its impossible to not have things spoiled. The amount of cnuts who jump on Facebook as soon as they have seen an episode is ridiculous.
 
duffer said:
Just don't watch the show until after the book comes out.
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I want to do this but it's pretty impossible indeed, unless you delete all your social media accounts and avoid any human interaction 'till the book comes out.
 
RobinLFC said:
I want to do this but it's pretty impossible indeed, unless you delete all your social media accounts and avoid any human interaction 'till the book comes out.
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Unless you are friends with a load of bellends, you can do it. I didn't have Star Wars spoiled (and I don't think I've seen any spoilers) and that was 100Xs a bigger thing than Game of Thrones.

I think it's more that some people don't like the idea of others knowing what happened before they do.
 
duffer said:
Unless you are friends with a load of bellends, you can do it. I didn't have Star Wars spoiled (and I don't think I've seen any spoilers) and that was 100Xs a bigger thing than Game of Thrones.

I think it's more that some people don't like the idea of others knowing what happened before they do.
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There seems to be a consensus with Star Wars. Don't spoil it. GoT however floods social media the second an episode is up.
 
duffer said:
Unless you are friends with a load of bellends, you can do it. I didn't have Star Wars spoiled (and I don't think I've seen any spoilers) and that was 100Xs a bigger thing than Game of Thrones.

I think it's more that some people don't like the idea of others knowing what happened before they do.
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Star Wars wasn't spoiled for me either but it was just two or three days between the premiere and me watching the movie so that's a lot easier than not picking up a spoiler in three months time. I don't know any people who'd spoil any events on purpose, but it gets talked about a lot in my group of friends. I think I'll at least try not to watch the new season and if it's doable to avoid spoilers I'll definitely won't watch the series before Winds of Winter comes out.
 
Martin should just say "the books and tv show are going in different directions, Jon Snow might be dead in one but not the other. Nothing is guaranteed to be the same because I'm not writing the tv show and the tv show writers don't know what I'm writing".

And then have the book come out in 2 years and be word for word identical to the TV show.
 
duffer said:
Martin should just say "the books and tv show are going in different directions, Jon Snow might be dead in one but not the other. Nothing is guaranteed to be the same because I'm not writing the tv show and the tv show writers don't know what I'm writing".

And then have the book come out in 2 years and be word for word identical to the TV show.
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The TV show writers know the ending and all the main plot points.
 
I think it's a lot more difficult to avoid spoilers for GOT than it would be for Star Wars. Whereas one was a movie that people will generally see at different times, any new GOT episode is going to have the one airing point at which a massive number of people will be watching it and discussing it online too. Plus, a movie has the benefit of generally retaining the same cast members. A show like GOT is changing it up a lot more than Star Wars probably will. See the speculation over Kit Harrington as an example.
 
duffer said:
They know what Martin told them was going to be in the books. They could mix it up if they (and Martin) wanted to.
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Martin won't change it and rightfully so. They may change it but doubt they will too much.
 
Gol123 said:
Martin won't change it and rightfully so. They may change it but doubt they will too much.
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He does not have to change anything, he could just say it's all going to change so people can't moan about spoilers. They he could laugh his fat tits off when the Internet goes apeshit 1 hour after the book is released.
 
duffer said:
He does not have to change anything, he could just say it's all going to change so people can't moan about spoilers. They he could laugh his fat tits off when the Internet goes apeshit 1 hour after the book is released.
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That.... Would be funny.
 
I'm ambivalent about this whole thing

Will the show really spoil the books though? In a general sense yes but they've veered so far off course now. Between dropped storylines and completely changed character arcs, there is so much that the show won't touch.


Bronn's lord of Stokeworth now and pretty much out of the books but now he's Jaime's travelling buddy.

If there's no LSH in season 6 and the show goes a different direction with Brienne and Jaime (the former is in the north and Jaime is likely to head to Riverrun for the siege but that was in book 4).

Sansa's vale storyline with Harry the Heir has been completely cut out so the show won't spoil how that turns out and there's no guarantee that she ever returns to Winterfell and if she does it won't be in the same circumstances as the show.

Mrycella's (sp?) already dead and a lot of the Dorne storyline is cut, Quentyn and Arianne's fate will remain a mystery until Winds, as well as the whole hunt for Darkstar.

Aegon's gone so that is another storyline the show won't spoil, including any potential battles between him and Dany. Stannis is dead in the show but there's still the whole battle of winterfell to play out.

Also with the way Stannis' storyline diverged from the book, burning Shireen, Selyse's suicide there's no guarantee that just because a character does X in the show that X will happen in the books.

T;LDR The show has diverged so far off the books that even though it will spoil the ending and the general events for the major characters the books still have several storylines and mysteries to uncover that won't be spoiled by it due to cut storylines and characters.
 
So, he basically says the book is not finished and it will be done when it's done. I don't see why that was necessary or why someone cares. We all knew that already, right?
 
Scarecrow said:
So, he basically says the book is not finished and it will be done when it's done. I don't see why that was necessary or why someone cares. We all knew that already, right?
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Because people continually hounded him about it and the decision not to give any updates on the book. I guess he wanted to clear the air which makes sense rather than listening to pointless speculation.
 
Akash said:
Because people continually hounded him about it and the decision not to give any updates on the book. I guess he wanted to clear the air which makes sense rather than listening to pointless speculation.
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Its funny because he said people were tired of him just replying its done when its done and that is why he made this post. He then basically goes on to say it'll be done when it'll be done.
 
Gol123 said:
Its funny because he said people were tired of him just replying its done when its done and that is why he made this post. He then basically goes on to say it'll be done when it'll be done.
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Nah. The primary motivation for writing the post seems to have been because people wanted to know if it would be done before Season 6.
 
Well this would be the first time I'd be pissed about spoilers. Since I read the books it didn't matter before so it feels a bit odd not knowing what will happen. I'm starting to understand how the people that didn't read the books felt when someone opened their big mouth and ruined everything.
 
I have serious doubts he will ever finish them. He seems to have lost some of his passion for writing them and there has been a steady decline in the quality already. Personally don't see him wanting to go through the process of writing a seventh especially since a lot of people by that point may have lost interest as the TV show will have already finished.
 
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