Precisely. He's also one of the only men who realises where the real fight is.
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
- Thread starter Massive Spanner
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My guess is that they will touch down in Gendry's boat.
He still ultimately did it, though. This is a guy who managed to survive a year long siege at Storm's End, eating animals in order to stay alive. But when Ramsay kills some of his men and causes some disruption, he's suddenly resorting to killing his daughter. It just goes completely against his character. He almost seemed more reluctant to burn Gendry in Season 3 than he did with Shireen here.
The show took their swords away from them, also their knowledge of the phalanx and any other tactical maneuvers. They're basically storm troopers.
He's a man with great values and morals, he's got a strong personality and I agree that burning his own daughter alive is completely against his character. But still, this situation is different than the siege of Storm's End or burning Gendry - back then, he thought he still had a fair shot at the Throne without killing innocent people. Burning Shireen is clearly an act of desperation, he knows they're lost because they're stuck between Winterfell and the Wall. That said, I really hope it goes down differently in the books, perhaps Melisandre does it without Stannis' knowing/consent.
Is it just me or are there way too many sons of the harpy?
I thought it was a few disaffected nobles, not half the population of the city.
Just thought i'd get my nitpicky complaint in there
I thought it was a few disaffected nobles, not half the population of the city.
Just thought i'd get my nitpicky complaint in there
Was thinking the exact same thing today, those Unsullied come across like right amateurs
I don't know about that man, paternal instinct has to be the single most intense feeling in the World. Hell I can say I'd easily die for my brother or sister if I had to. I think 'book Stannis' is that guy with the great values (although what he did to his own brother is overlooked) but the show has ruined any thought of him being that way now at least in this form. I still won't hold anything against 'book Stannis' unless it ends up happening there (I don't believe he'll have anything to do with her burning in WOW).
The kinslayer is the most accursed in the eyes of gods and men. He has gone to being the most hated character on the show because of one scene. Hell people are rooting for Ramsey over him now.
There ain't any people of great morals or values who would burn their own child alive for any purpose or reason.
Was thinking the exact same thing today, those Unsullied come across like right amateurs
Yeah the Unsullied being shit is really pissing me off. Also the fact Barristan was defeated by a bunch of nobodies is annoying. He deserved a death via a great swordsman not some Harpy bullshitters.
Stannis killed his brother not really that out of character to kill another family member.
Why the feck did they have john snow and the gang walk to castle black when they could have just sailed to east gate?
Why the feck did they have john snow and the gang walk to castle black when they could have just sailed to east gate?
Also the dragon should have caused havoc like in the book. Torched all the people!
i had a feeling that was coming but it still pissed me off, its pretty much the nail in the book coffin for me you have to consider them different entities now. in some ways thats a comfort as i wonder if the endings might differ afterall I know GRRM has apparantly told the writers how the story will end but that doesnt mean they will definately follow it. The TV ending will be filled with all the cliched good over evil the viewers a crying out for whereas the book could go a lot darker.
if they skip arya forward to killing yer man in the brothel and jon gets a poking am i right in thinking all the book threads will have reached an end? so from next year its all fresh stuff?
if they skip arya forward to killing yer man in the brothel and jon gets a poking am i right in thinking all the book threads will have reached an end? so from next year its all fresh stuff?
Pretty much, I can't think of a single character that has story left that hasn't been altered already.
I mean they cut a bunch of characters they could introduce, but I can't see any of them becoming PoV character level at this point.
Dramatic tension, why did they even get on the boats if they were going to go the land entrance anyway.
I think it's because they altered the method of how the wilding's came through the wall, but they still wanted to keep that scene, which made it weird.
I mean they cut a bunch of characters they could introduce, but I can't see any of them becoming PoV character level at this point.
Dramatic tension, why did they even get on the boats if they were going to go the land entrance anyway.
I think it's because they altered the method of how the wilding's came through the wall, but they still wanted to keep that scene, which made it weird.
it just seems like such a shame, they knew that by sticking only with this tight set of characters they'd soon run out of story and yet if anything they seemed to have rushed even quicker through it.
personally i'd have liked to see a Wire S2 type approach to this season where none of the regulars really feature until near the end. They could have focussed on the Iron Islands, Dorne and JonCon as well as given Tyrion (and even Bran) proper journeys to fill plenty of the episodes. Finish the season with some dragon riding and lady stoneheart but maybe thats not box office enough
at this rate its over in 2 seasons and i doubt we'd have seen WoW by then
oh and if next week sees Tyrion put in charge of Meereen whilst Dany is away i will personally execute a little person in protest
I reckon that although illogical it made sense for the wildlings to enter at Castle Black. You need that dramatic tension and the wildlings being allowed to cross the wall is a pretty big moment. Wouldn't have made sense to do it at Eastwatch which has never been on the show before or indeed the books. Good scene imo aside from yet another fecking shot of olly being mysterious.
Ha! I always compared the Feast to Season 2 of the Wire which is my favourite season of the lot.
I really want to watch that little shit of an imp get fecked up in the books or the show. Probably won't happen in either though. Worse luck.
EDIT - Thought the Dany scene left a bit to be desired. The Dragon was great but everything else didn't make much sense.
Ha! I always compared the Feast to Season 2 of the Wire which is my favourite season of the lot.
I really want to watch that little shit of an imp get fecked up in the books or the show. Probably won't happen in either though. Worse luck.
EDIT - Thought the Dany scene left a bit to be desired. The Dragon was great but everything else didn't make much sense.
I agree with Redlambs in the other thread that these shock factor scenes are just proof of how much the writers have taken over and left the book behind. It says a lot when nobody is even discussing the Meryn scene (which I thought was sick enough and unnecessary in itself) due to how fecked up the Shireen scene was (which was also completely unnecessary and ruined Stannis).
It is a bit annoying how often they seem to get destroyed by everyone but looking at it objectively it kinda makes sense.
They are 'the best' line fighters in the world, look at the weapons they use, long spear and a shield, for the most part they are shit close quarters fighting tools. Simply put She is using them all wrong, they aren't a very good police force, they are highly specialised pitch battle fighters at the end when they got into the centre of the arena and got into a formation they had a lot more success, numbers might have eventually overrun their position but they could have held out till help arrived.
Dany flying off was a bit weird in the books too but they came to kill her, I doubt they'd hang around after she's escaped, how many more would die to finish off the remainder of team dany, could they do it before grey worm turns up, imo they'll just leave.
I fast forwarded the Shireen burning. Couldn't watch it tbh
Personally, I think violence on TV should be toned down even if it's there in the books. Didn't like how Jeyne was explicitly stabbed in her pregnant belly either.
Watched it a few times actually. The scene is quite powerful, especially the devastated look on Stannis' face.
This episode just further shows that W&B (or whoever are writing the script) aren't such good writers in my opinion. There's just too many things that make no sense now. Complete U-turns of characters, no politics anymore, the Unsullied being a complete joke etc.
The actor as always been very good and fits the Stannis role very well. But that scene's not for me...especially when the screaming starts.
Not sure you can really argue that this is a big u-turn for Stannis or was just done for shock value. They've been foreshadowing it since season 2 so it was obviously long part of the plan. Also, we don't have a clue what effect it might have yet. It could be an important plot point for all we know given it appears Shireen will burn in the books too.
Plus this isn't book Stannis they're fecking with, TV Stannis is theirs to do with as they please. If they think it's in his character to burn his daughter then it's in his character to burn his daughter. They certainly haven't set up his reluctance to do so anywhere near as much as Martin did for the book counterpart.
Plus this isn't book Stannis they're fecking with, TV Stannis is theirs to do with as they please. If they think it's in his character to burn his daughter then it's in his character to burn his daughter. They certainly haven't set up his reluctance to do so anywhere near as much as Martin did for the book counterpart.
The Unsullied are annoying alright, especially since I'm sure they'll suddenly become awesome again if the plot requires it.
They’ve been foreshadowing Melisandre burning Shireen, but for Stannis to actually advocate it is completely illogical. Just a couple of episodes ago he was reminding his daughter that he loved her and wasn’t ashamed of her despite her greyscale; a major character trait.
An argument for him doing it is that he was in a desperate situation, but that’s pretty tenuous. This is a guy who managed to survive a year-long siege, eating animals in the process, yet he decides to suddenly burn his daughter when Ramsay kills some of his men? It doesn’t make sense.
Not to mention that Ramsay casually outwitting one of the best tacticians in Westeros doesn’t make sense in itself. But then Ramsay can do absolutely anything without any sort of consequences whatsoever on this show.
The, “it’s their show” argument is also poor because they had built Stannis as a character who loved and admired his daughter, despite what others said about her. To do a complete u-turn and have him burn alive is just utterly shite writing.
It's weird to me that everyone has simply drawn the conclusion that Stannis after all these years of love and affection towards his daughter simply decided to randomly burn her and become a cnut. How is that likelier than him actually not having any other choice and him doing what he believes is best for the realm? I mean why the hell would he burn his own daughter if that was not the absolute last option? It's plain obvious to me at least that he has put the safety of the whole continent over the life of his daughter. This was the "choice" he had to make, as was reflected in his last dialogue with Shireen.
People love Jaime for breaking his oath and slaying his own king as it meant saving the rest of the city. I can understand that in this case this was the man's daughter and I was as disturbed as anyone else watching him having to do it but that only makes him an even bigger man, given the extent he went to for this sacrifice. This has re-affirmed the notion that he is, and always was, the one true king of Westeros. The king who cares about his population over anything else, including his family.
People love Jaime for breaking his oath and slaying his own king as it meant saving the rest of the city. I can understand that in this case this was the man's daughter and I was as disturbed as anyone else watching him having to do it but that only makes him an even bigger man, given the extent he went to for this sacrifice. This has re-affirmed the notion that he is, and always was, the one true king of Westeros. The king who cares about his population over anything else, including his family.
Every battle eventually leads to close combat. It's impossible to win one using only long-range weapons unless there's a big advantage in number or quality. They may specialize in fighting with spears but they can't be trained warriors and not be able to use a fecking sword or any close-range weapon. The fact that they're carrying only spears in the city is amateurish.
Do you seriously believe he did it just to escape this little problem where he's caught in a blizzard? Come on!
That was the setup of the episode, though. Just a couple of weeks ago he was refusing to even consider the notion when talking to Melisandre. Now, when his camps been hit, he changes his mind.
It’s also illogical because he now has no heirs. He has a weaker claim on the throne: people in a critical mind would be hesitant to follow him because if he dies, the claim to the throne is up in the air again.
Not to mention it’s also illogical because Stannis should be trying to win the support of Northern houses, who are extremely unlikely to follow him once word spreads that he’s the guy who burned his own daughter alive. Yeah, the Boltons are pricks, but the Northerners may even prefer them to Stannis after he went out and did that.
Although the show doesn’t seem overly bothered with the politics of actual depth, and is more concerned with just giving us shock moments, so all of that won’t matter anyway.
They explained it in the episode itself. They are in the north, all of Stannis' record has been in the Stormlands, or the south. They know jackshit about the North, on the other hand Rmasay and his men belong to this place. Of course they can be capable of pulling it off, they have the advantage and they are using it. Specially the weather, to which they are accustomed to and the Baratheons are not. This is what the Russians did to Napoleon when he marched towards Moscow. Being the much superior commander and heavily outnumbering the opponents didn't do anything when his men starved in the snow with no clue what to do!
Tbf they had also built Stannis as a character who was from the start willing to burn people alive and ultimately was also willing to sacrifice family members (both Renly and Gendry).
Agree on the situation he was in though, it didn't seem near as desperate as in the books. If you really got the feeling that it was all over if he didn't do something then the sacrifice would've made more sense but as is it didn't actually seem that bad.
I think part of the problem was that they needed Davos to be able to return to Castle Black so they couldn't really trap Stannis in the blizzard in the same way.
"How'd they get into the camp unseen?"
"Erm, cause we're in the North sir"
"But everything's flat, it's not like there's a cave or underground they can sneak through"
"Yeah but like ... North and shit.."
"Erm, cause we're in the North sir"
"But everything's flat, it's not like there's a cave or underground they can sneak through"
"Yeah but like ... North and shit.."
Decent point, although even then, I still feel like it makes sense for Stannis to not be getting completely outwitted by Ramsay. Yeah, he’s in different conditions, but Stannis is a guy who has managed to survive in some pretty damn tough conditions in the past.
It also doesn’t explain that Ramsay is capable of doing absolutely anything in this show without consequences, because the writers love him to constantly succeed due to the shock value it provides, which is getting a bit tedious.
He denied it, obviously no father would readily agree to that notion. But he had to accept over time that it had to be done, end of. It was the setup of this episode, but anyone who has followed his story since Season 2 would easily understand the true motive of this sacrifice. It's really got little to do with what happened in this episode, Stannis believes, through mel, that he is the saviour of this continent, and to achieve that goal he has to do what the lord of light demands. The lord demanded king's blood and that was what he had to give.
Oh totally, they should have a backup weapon, they don't cause the show needs cannonfodder, I'm just clutching at straws to justify what we have seen.
With a phalanx formation, if it gets to ditching the spear, you are in a lot of trouble but these guys have supposedly been trained from no age you think they'd take up knife fighting as a hobby or something. They are massively outnumbered and showing unsullied getting rekt is a good way to portray the peril team Dany are in, without killing anyone important. I'm sure if you add it up, even before Drogon's BBQ family hour, more than a few harpies were dying per unsullied.
Renly was going to fight against Stannis and kill him if he didn’t secede his claim as king, even though Stannis had been reasonable by offering that he be his heir even after he’d betrayed him, and Gendry was a bastard nephew whom he’d never met. There’s a difference between that and a daughter who Stannis cherishes, loves, and is his only heir.
And yeah, definitely on the second part. He’s lost some men, aye, but he’s been in much worse situations before.
Yeah fair enough, think I've finally managed to separate the two in my head but that could just be as it's been so long since I finished the last book. It will ruin the experience of the next book unfortunately but I blame GRM for that.
Personally that wouldn't have suprised me in the book, his character from the start has always been slowly creeping towards a God complex and I can see him going towards mad King territory. I don't see him as a character to be hated akin to Ramsay, he didn't enjoy it, he's just been radicalised.
I find it funny that the TV lot are saddened by the loss of someone to support. Stannis has committed some pretty dire acts. They're going to lose it at episode 13
It is generally agreed by everyone in the show that the north, not only north of the wall but the whole region, is the most difficult in terms of geography and weather, and someone who has always been in the south, no matter what he has survived in hasn't survived in the north. And now the Winter has come, so I am not really surprised that even a great commander is being tested here.