Even though Bayern has won the league the last 7 years, even under an underwhelming manager like Kovac?
A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
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Even though Bayern has won the league the last 7 years, even under an underwhelming manager like Kovac?
You're denying the antecedent.
It wouldn't be Fergie-level achievement. But it would show he can stand up to the pressure and transmit that confidence to his players. If you've ever been in a management or leadership position at work, you'd know what I mean.
I don't doubt he could do it. It is, however, a black mark against his name that he hasn't done it before.
The flaw in your logic is the level and amount of competition faced in each job isn't the same so you can't simply look at the achievement of each manager and deduce this has winning mentality and this not because this won more. It can't be ignored. What does winning mentality mean? Just because the manager wants to win he's not going to regardless of the surrounding events and atmosphere. By this logic Kovac has proved he has a better winning mentality than Poch, he has a league, and 2 cups, one won before the Bayern job as well. Does that mean clubs will prefer him over Poch because he won things? I highly doubt they will.
In what sense?
That's not a flaw in logic. I've acknowledged that level matters.
You're determined to rate managers on a single sliding scale. Human beings are more complex than that. Winning mentality is not the only thing that matters. But it is an important factor that a top manager needs to have.
No one said it's not an important factor, but at the same there needs to be basis on evaluating it. Just because a manager has a winning mentality it doesn’t mean mean he will go on and win a trophy with any team he manages regardless of the oppositions, state of his team, difficulty of the league.. Etc. It's not that simple that a manager has a winning mentality so he's going to trophies, or that a manager who won minnows league has a winning mentality when he moves to higher competitions. Several factors affect the ability of the manager to win things or not.
I'm saying that somebody who's consistently bottled it needs to show more in order to be considered to class.
You're reframing that arguement to claim I'm saying that winning any title means the opposite: that you are good enough.
There's more to it than that. Football management has a lot of facets to it. Being a winner is a big part of the equation, but not the only part.
No, because it’s not about whether he can do this in any scenario, it’s whether he can do it at the highest level. Otherwise you could say the manager of the winning team in the Australian league has a superior cv to Pochettino. Do you believe this is true?
Again, I support Ole, my issue is with this ridiculous, poor argument you’re still clinging to, as the logic doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
You're missing the point. Read the thread.
Well, yeah. But "bottled it" is a concept I have a problem with inherently.
I have always maintained that Klopp - for instance - is a very good manager. When he was hired by Liverpool, his detractors pointed to two factors in particular: 1) he has always "bottled it" in finals and 2) he was blessed with a brilliant squad at Dortmund (allowing him to win the Bundesliga, I suppose, and this wasn't down to him but to other figures at said club. My response to this was 1) you can lose without "bottling it" (a seemingly alien concept to many these days) and 2) you can't win anything of note without a brilliant squad - that is the rule, there are exceptions but they tend to very much stand out as such.
When Liverpool lost against Real, there was a swarm on here ready to confirm him as a serial bottler. What's the consensus now?
I repeat the - very pertinent - question: if Poch goes to Bayern and wins the Bundesliga, will that make him a "winner"? Confirm him as such? Regardless of the - blatant - fact that it's clearly easier for any manager to win the Bundesliga with Bayern than winning anything of note with Tottenham?
I've already answered that question.
Fair enough. Poch did in fact take his team to a CL final, which is far more than Moyes has ever accomplished anywhere he's managed.
Lucas doing well doesn't look good for Poch.
Apologies.
I would agree that him winning the Bundesliga with Bayern would to some degree prove that he "can stand up to the pressure and transmit that confidence to his players" - certainly. Just as I would agree that Ole winning the Norwegian league with Molde isn't something that can be dismissed as completely irrelevant.
Context is key, though, as always. And the real question is whether Poch winning the league with Bayern should significantly alter our perception of him as a manager (or head coach - whatever). Is Ole's achievements at Molde a significant factor to take into consideration? Or does context render it less significant?
Poch goes to the Bundesliga - but not to Bayern. He goes to anyone-but-Bayern and he does well enough, Spurs style - what does that make him? Bottler? Or - still - someone who simply haven't managed a team with the kind of squad enjoyed by certain other managers?
I'm getting deep into the absurdly hypothetical, I know - but there is a point here: the way managers are judged by many fans these days (the idea that a manager "performs" independently of numerous factors) is flawed.
I like how you added Tuanzebe in that list as if he is an essential player when last season he wasn't even featured at all.
I have no reason to believe he couldn't have us around 5/4th without hot and cold players such as Martial, shaw and Pogba
Poch would never have gone into the season with such a threadbare squad to find himself in that position of being in an injury crisis from 3 players being injured, in the first place.
Since we got Martial back, we have beat teams we should be beating. The bar has been set so low that wins over brighton, partizan and norwich are seen as miracles.
Where did you get the idea of me wanting United to aspire to be like Southampton?
I brought up Southampton to compare the way Poch approached the job to how Ole approached the Cardiff job.
Since Ole's acolytes say Cardiff was on their way down,I say, so was Southampton. Difference is Poch didn't resign himself to fate and make things worse. He actually did what he was hired to do and that was improve their results and position.
There's no point a club sacking a manager, only to bring a new one in and say ''well, results were failing before,so it's not the new managers fault if the results are still shit.''
As for Poch being a disgrace this, year Ole wasn't that far behind him. Besides one bad period doesn't to define a manager's ability, otherwise Klopp wouldn't be where he is today.
He almost relegated Dortmound the season before he took charge of liverpool. You could say he was a disgrace in his last season, but anyone sensible would know he took Dortmund as far as they could go before things became stale, which is what happens when a manager remains at a particular club with limitations for too long
Btw the day we became a mid table club is the day we appointed coach with no top level managerial experience and who is in the job on the back of a 3 month managerial bounce hot streak. We actually sit mid table right now and you're ok with that because of injuries which every single team in the prem get
The only thing that I would say Ole has over Poch, is that he has a world class smile
I mentioned Tuanzebe because he's a bloody good player regardless of what he has shown for us before. We became a mid table club after appointing 2 of the most decorated and praised coaches in the game. Poch would have had no chance being better than Ole with the injuries we've had. You don't seem to realise that we've been without 3-4 best players for months all the while we've outplayed every team except West Ham. If Liverpool have been lucky this year and won games they shouldn't have then we've been unlucky and lost/drawn games we shouldn't have including the fact we 'should' have beaten Liverpool on balance of play. All the while Poch's Spurs have looked awful in every single game.
He failed to win a single trophy hence that failed manager tag. If he wants to be rated as a possible United manager then thats how he should be rated. Howe hasn't failed because he is never going to be good enough for the job at United. Fergie's greatest achievement came well before being United manager (look at the history of the Scottish league if you don't believe it), he broke the Rangers/Celtic dominance which is a bigger achievement IMO than anything he done with United. He proved himself. Poch's greatest achievement was losing badly to a shite performing Liverpool team in a CL final while overcoming an Ajax team with a portion of the funds he had.
He doesn't play good football, he has won no trophies and has achieved feck all at Spurs, or as I should put it better he achieved what Harry Redknapp did. If he was applying to the Arsenal job then he's not a 'failed' manager because they expect top 4 only but applying to the United job then he's failed because we want to win trophies. The gut had a better squad than ours with half the injuries and had a worse record than Ole and for some reason you all praise him. How would Spurs have been without Martial (Kane) and Pogba (Son) this season so far?
We've currently got a manager at the helm whose only achievements occured in a teeny tiny insignficant (in the United picture) league, and you somehow managed to deride those who have performed and proven themsleves at a much higher level. The work Pochettino has done at Spurs has been absolutely superb - turning them into a proper football team which has managed to finish between 2nd and 4th regularly. In fact, if our fans the club could for once prioritize the development of the football team over a desperate desire to take short cuts to trophies (which end up being league cups and Europa's) then maybe we'll actually get out of the mire were in. Now, of course Pochettino could have won at least one trophy at spurs. But it would most likely have been the league cup or Fa cup and they don't have the importance that they used to. While success is hugely important, progress can be even moreso. Spurs are now IMo in a better position than had they been finishing 6th every year while winning that elusive league cup. Becuase Mourinho wouldn't have got a very good football team to work with and they'd be even further away from the top teams.
So I hope we do go for a coach who is capable of building a football team rather than needing smaller trophies to be some sort of qualifying criteria. Whether that's Pochettino or Rose or someone esle, I don't know. But I sure as hell won't pass up on a quality manager because he didn't win that one FA cup or League cup becuase, well, that's fecking bonkers. Even moreso given who we actually have in charge.
Completel rubbish. He's done a terrific job there. The fact that a great manager like Mourinho is taking over at a club like Spurs speaks for his work as does Mourinho saying he thinks the squad is fanatastic.
This season ? Given they've had a poor season much like Klopps last at Dortmund, not very well. But in the past under Pochettino they've dealt with Kanes absence fine. Becuase he's actually managed the team superbly over the years something Ole doesn't look capable of doing.
Anyway, stick to praising Ole and the ultimate chase for league cups I suppose. Maybe Ole will win that huge trophy and buy himself 3 more years. I'd prefer somebody who can actually build a football team. If it's Ole (I'd be shocked tbh) then great. But if not, we need someone who can do that - whether that's Pochettino or Rose or Nagelsmann.
Those two factors you say where pointed out (never heard of the 2nd one though!), shows either pure ignorance, or an agenda by dictractors as you rightly call them!
The finals thing was crazy, as for starters his team where underdogs in many of them, so he was basically being critisised for taking a team that no one expected to win a lot of these finals, to the final, and then given stick cos the team they didn't think would win - didn't win! Said it before here, he'd have been better given an easier ride by fans of others teams if he'd got knocked out in earlier rounds, the whole thing with him and finals was just laughable.
The 2nd one you state, never heard of that one! Maybe it's just a Red Cafe thing? Yes those Dortmund's teams he helped build between 2008-2013 where brilliant - but that was mostly down to him, and they where built on a ridiculously small budget. And that's the key, it was the team that was brilliant, cos they where always greater than the sum of their parts. No other coach would have led that group to championships, cups and a CL final. Yes, some great players in there of course like Lewandowski, Gundogan, Hummels and Götze , but also a lot of player no 'big club' would likey have looked at, like Schmelzer, Grosskreutz, Kuba, Bender, Subotic and Barrios to name a few. And we saw what happened to 2 or 3 who did move to big clubs such as Sahin and Kagawa, they didn't succeed.
Anyway, to another comment above (sorry for not quoting), about Niko Kovac, he's actually a very good coach, and gets a lot of stick now because of the Bayern thing, fact is he was never the right coach for them stylistically. So his reputation has been tarred by Bayern and their fans, just because he was never the right choice. But he is a winner (yes, more so than Poch right now), the job he did with Eintracht was immense.
Time to get a fecking decent manager in...
Imagine how far a player like McT, Martial, Rash, James, AWB and Greenwood can be under Poch vs under Ole.
Agreed. On the bright side, if we go on a losing run, the board may be forced into appointing Poch in the summer. For that reason and the fact that this entire season is dead for us, I'm not really bothered if Sheffield beat us. I'm half tempted to cheer them on.
I know they've talked a lot about playing young, British players, attacking football and winning but Poch is at least as good at all of that as OGS is, if not better.
We've got a chance here. The timing with Pep & Klopp was all wrong, but the way this season has gone we're idiots if we don't take this chance.
Coaches good drilled football ✓
Improves his players ✓
Uses the academy ✓
PL proven ✓
Coaches good drilled football ✓
Improves his players ✓
Uses the academy ✓
PL proven ✓
Sounds nice until you watch a 4-2-3-1 every week with Wanyama and Dier type players in midfield.
Sorry Ole, I think I’ve seen enough
Pochettino is actually available right now. There was talk of us willing to pay a ransom to get him in last year, so what are we waiting for? Ole to turn into SAF? Club and fans are deluded to the max.
You're joking but yes, that's what the club and some of the fans are waiting for. There's this myth that SAF became great because he was given 5 years. Therefore, for the club to succeed, we must undergo half a decade of mediocrity to win anything.
Sure beats watching whatever that is meant to be out there right now.
Tottenham have not only been miles better but also easier on the eyes than United for the entirety of Poch's reign so I don't get your point?
How many times has the club had a window of opportunity to get a competent manager in in the last decade ? I wouldn't be surprised to see the glazers make a fool of themselves again and we end up with Neville or Beckham in charge. That's the extent of the ludicrousy at the helm of the hierarchy.
What an insult to SAF. His past achievements were historic before he set foot in the door.
Poch revolutionized Spurs so much so that they are able to get world class manager like Mourinho and reach the finals of the champions league. Something that was impossible before he came in.
Poch will revolutionize Manchester United as well if he becomes our manager. However, I don’t feel like he wants to stay in England. Bayern or Madrid might be his next destination.
Poch will revolutionize Manchester United as well if he becomes our manager. However, I don’t feel like he wants to stay in England. Bayern or Madrid might be his next destination.
I have that unfortunate feeling, too. Especially if we keep waiting in the blind hope that Ole will come good.
This is an important moment for the club. They have one of the best young coaches around out of a job at the moment. You don't have to worry about dealing with other clubs and trying to take their manager away. No dealing with Levy. That's all done.
You're not going to have many opportunities like this as a club. We've already fecked up over the years my employing the wrong managers while other clubs sign better one's. We have an opportunity to rectify that now. Be absolutely foolish if we don't act. There's simply no reason not to go out there and get him. Love Ole to bits, but the man is out of his depth. He'll always be a lege
You're not going to have many opportunities like this as a club. We've already fecked up over the years my employing the wrong managers while other clubs sign better one's. We have an opportunity to rectify that now. Be absolutely foolish if we don't act. There's simply no reason not to go out there and get him. Love Ole to bits, but the man is out of his depth. He'll always be a lege
It's an absolute no brainer.
Exactly. Get him in!
It's so fecking obvious. I wouldn't hold my breath on it happening though. This club is utterly incompetent.
Poch has always used a variety of midfielder types.
Yes, he's used limited destroyers like those two, but, at Southampton, he used the likes of S.Davies who had good ball retention, and was pretty creative to complement Wanyama and Cork. Lallana often came inside and was their primary playmaker, too.
Then, at Spurs, he always favoured having a CM who good withstand pressing opposition, and could build the play up from the back in Dembele and Winks alongside a Dier/Sissoko. Then he had Eriksen - like Lallana - coming inside to be their primary playmaker.
A manager who couldn't buy an away win, whilst losing the interest of some of his better players.
How will we tell the difference? Other than not having the best forward in the division doing enough to bail him out, obviously.
How will we tell the difference? Other than not having the best forward in the division doing enough to bail him out, obviously.
How does this not make sense? fecking hell, if Ole isn't sacked tomorrow and Poch being sounded out then I fecking give up.