Crazy to think but watching the game today just felt like they are throwing their manager under the bus. They have absolutely no right to, them players have achieved nothing. Their manager has made that team, got the best out of them players. Similarly to how Jose was thrown out by our players and their performances. Player power is to much in this day and age, especially when the manager doesn't get the backing of the board. Its sad.
A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
- Thread starter NotBrendanRodgers honest
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Yeah this notion that Poch didnt have big opportunities to win something is bogus. And that Klopp had it easy.
The quality of the top teams in the premier league was pretty awful from his arrival in 2014 for the next 3 seasons and like every other team he did nothing when Leceister romped to a title. Tbf Chelsea posted a whopping points total in 2016/17 and Spurs did pretty well, however whenever they have had an oppirtunity to take the next step they have not done so. Then City and Liverpool hit top form and Spurs have not progressed. It is true that their signigns have stagnated and Poch hasnt had as much to work with BUT it is also clear that he is no great manager like Pep or Klopp or even Jose.
He has had a good team and some top players at the right time and won zero. Thats the bottom line.
He might be a good choice provided Levy allows him to spend. After 5 seasons of idealism they might need some realism and get some results. There are still some solid players there though of course they require a rebuild.
If they went for Mourinho, i think alot of their players would sign a new contract, thus saving the club 100 to 150 mill in transfers for a season or two.
Porto mk2.....
I was being sarcastic a little. Rodgers is about the level of Poch. Probably could do better at Spurs, I dunno. Nevermind the what ifs at the day his time is up and he's won nothing. Elite managers win things.
On the other hand Heynkes Bayern was better than any premier league side at that time. Also while the bundesliga is easier it’s not as big a difference as you seem to think, and beating Bayern is difficult for any team. Also Klopp took over a very different Dortmund than what they are now. They where in the bottom of the league the season prior.
But you just seem to ignore facts.
Read that he was seriously depressed after the CL final loss and he might still be suffering from it. Which might go some way in explaining why Spurs look poor this season.
I don't blame him for being depressed after the CL final, Spurs had a real chance in that game and never for a second looked like getting anything from it, as a manager on the sidelines it must be crushing.
I don't think so, but with the way you rate left backs, anything is possible.
Didn't help matters by thrusting a half fit Kane back into the lineup.
Well what has Ole shown? Absolutely nothing. Also Liverpool's example is completely different. You could see what Klopp wanted to do. I am yet to figure out what Ole's plan is. At the moment he is just the Norwegian Jose Mourinho. We shouldn't be patient with Ole when he hasn't shown us any progress or an idea of plan.
Given the wage rises that would be required to renew some of their players' contracts it would cost them the same as the transfers fees it saves but spread over the 4/5 years of the contracts, so no real net saving and costing them more long term as every new signing or contract renewal in future would cost them more as players demand equality with other squad members.
So he is a die hard United fan also?
Someone needs to post a high definition profile picture of Poch so we can finally get a seriously good look at him.
I've posted this before, and I'm gonna post it again:
A terrible year is something that every single manager goes through at least once in a career, including SAF, Clough, Shankly, Mourinho, Klopp, Heynckes et al)
Seriously, for anyone slagging him off, calling him 'overrated' or whatever - name a manager who has been/was around for 7 years or more who has not had at least one truly horrible year/job.
Go ahead. I'll wait.
It happens. To EVERYONE. I'm not sure where this manager who is successful at the highest level but has never a horrifying year is going to come from. But good luck finding him.
You'll need it.
I'm sure there will not be more than a handful.
How? It’s just like Klopp and Dortmund. Both have gone as far as they can and it’s got stale. Would you have rejected Klopp then?
Guardiola in that Barca, team that was in their peak at that time, failed to win La liga and CL in his last season also. Next year they won la liga without manager( Tito was sick most of next season).
It was just time to move on.
What does easier mean? Klopp took over from a more difficult starting position at Dortmund than Poch did at Tottenham. Do you think with that starting point it's as difficult to finish third behind Leicester and Arsenal as it was for Dortmund to win the league ahead of Bayern in 2011? Or is it as difficult to finish 2nd by some distance behind Chelsea without actually challenging as it is to beat an elite side to the title and cup and set a points record in a league?
I don't argue that the Premier League is overall a stronger league at the moment. There are plenty of hints that it actually wasn't that much stronger from 2012 to 2014 though. Part of the reason why it's now significantly stronger is that the two elite managers in the game right now left the Bundesliga and joined the Premier League and totally changed the game there. Poch missed the chance to take advantage of that weak period.
Regarding the 2nd bolded point: Spurs hasn't been a midtable team in quite a while. Again, in 3 out of 5 seasons Poch finished below Villas-Boas points record and just benefited from the significant decline/inconsistency of 3 of the old top 4 clubs. He hasn't built a side that challenged elite teams in the league at any point like Klopp and Simeone did. In fact, he never finished above a top team that wasn't heavily struggling. If Klopp wins the league with Liverpool, he has nothing to prove anymore.
Also to get back to your original point:
Funny enough, the only actually great season Poch had in the league was when they went out in the CL group stages after losing at home against Leverkusen. And even then it was just a pressureless run without actually challenging, but credit to him for finishing 2nd.
No crystal ball on whether he'd be good or not here but he's making dinner that generally tastes consistently good despite only shopping in Tesco on a budget. Our managers shop in Waitrose with a healthy budget but the foods still shite.
Get out of here with your common sense, there’ll be none of that!
If you are talking about 3 years ago I could agree. However, Rose is no longer on the same level. He’s below Robertson now, and I don’t even consider Robertson as anywhere near world class
Yea Robertson was only rated as the 7th best defender on FIFA World XI recently. Nowhere near world class indeed.If you are talking about 3 years ago I could agree. However, Rose is no longer on the same level. He’s below Robertson now, and I don’t even consider Robertson as anywhere near world class
Definitely, what Poch accomplished was more difficult as competition and scheduling is more rigorous in the premier league. The thing with leagues like the bundesliga, is that it is always a competition towards who is the second best team and that is ever changing. Klopp Dortmund took advantage of that and like Ranieri’s leceister, the stars aligned perfectly for him to execute what he did. Klopp did well setting a good foundation at Dortmund like Poch did with Spurs, but as I stated the only way that Klopp can prove that his success at Dortmund was greater than Poch at Spurs is by taking over a mid table team and consistently putting them in the champions league and getting into the champions league final. Only Poch has done that in the premier league. No doubt that Poch with that same Dortmund team would have done the same as Klopp had some quality players then. Spurs was definitely a mid table club and was not a champions league contender before Poch took over. There club was a joke and Arsenal fans kept mocking them. Yes, the mighty Arsenal
. When Poch came in the narrative completely changed.Not ignoring fact, I am the only one that is pushing forward fact. Your statement has nothing factual about it towards whether Klopp can achieve the same success with a midtable or bottom half team in the premier league. Only Pochettino has showed that with Spurs with the success he had transforming them. Heynkes Bayern was a strong team, but Dortmund was not playing that team every week. Plus, as I stated before Bayern was more focused on the champions league than the bundesliga, even their president said so at the time and wasn’t convinced by Dortmund accomplishments in the league.
Forget Pochettino, we should go all out for Harry Kane
Tottenham league places:
2011/2012: 69 points, 4th place. 2012/2013: 72 points, 5th place.
2013/2014: 69 points, 6th place.
2014/2015: 64 points, 5th place.
2015/2016: 70 points, 3rd place.
2016/2017: 86 points, 2nd place.
2017/2018: 77 points, 3rd place.
2018/2019: 71 points, 4th place.
Poch joined in 2014, initially finishing behind the previous manager.
Beyond the second place finish, the rest aren't massively different.
What you're saying is wrong, he didn't take over a mid table side, and what he has achieved isn't close to what Klopp did with Dortmund.
Getting to the champions league final was impressive, but they're unlikely to get back there again for a while, Pochettino or no Pochettino.
It would be Utd's best signing since RVP.
Pretty sure Arsenal kept mocking Tottenham under Poch as well. Finishing behind Arsenal in the season Leceister won was the biggest joke on Arsenal Fan TV and on here. Finishing 3rd in a 2 horse race is still a running gag.
Great post. 100% agree.
Only a select few have, but definitely not as much as they did before Poch. I m sure Arsenal fans would rather have the Spurs pre poch.
Poch joined 14/15 season and before then, Spurs never finished above fourth. They were an Europa league team which is basically mid table. You can look at the points tally after that season, Spurs averaged finish is the five years before he took over was 6th. When Poch took over it was 3rd. He did this with little investment and also a fantastic champions league run. 6th in my definition is a mid table club. They were no different than Everton at the time and when you compare those two teams then and now, the difference is monumental.
Not really. Were Liverpool wrong to hire Klopp after his disastrous last season at Dortmund?
All good things eventually come to an end.
Poch's time at Spurs is up. He needs a fresh challenge and the spurs squad needs a new manager.
There is no difference between 4th and second, especially since there isn't champions league qualifiers if you finish 4th anymore.
They were clearly different than Everton, they were in the champions league two seasons before he joined them, and after he did he initially took them backwards.
A Europa league team isn't midtable, you're just backtracking because you didn't bother to look at the facts.
He's averaged 74 (73.6) points since he's been at Tottenham, which is impressive, but not nearly as much as you give him credit for.
That isn't even a slight on Poch, you just wildly overrate him.
Precisely. And the years prior to 2011 with Redknapp they were 5th and 4th (70 points).
There is no doubt that Poch has continued the trend and perhaps even improved them a little but there is little evidence he is much better than AVB and Redknapp, and even less evidence of his talent being remotely close to Klopp's.
He is a good manager but the guy is not elite and has no talent for winning. I couldnt care less about him having a down season as this was the opinion I had before of him based upon the evidence. Yes I think he is better than what this season is showing but still dont think he is at all what we need at our club.
There is a difference between fourth and second, unless you mean with regards to champions league qualification. Second means you are closer to challenging for the title. Everton and Spurs was battling for Europa League position pre poch. Everton was Spurs competition then not City, Liverpool, now. There is a big difference in that. Never backed tracked, once and have been consistent.
Quick reminder that @Amadaeus claims that Molde were a top team before Ole took over in 2011. This is based on them finishing 2nd once, in 2009. Their league finishes before Ole were: 14th (relegated), 1st (promoted), 9th, 2nd, 11th. For Amadaeus, this is proof that they were a top team and Ole hadn't much to do to have them challenge.
However, with Poch, it's the opposite. Despite Tottenham very clearly challenging for Champions League spots before he joined, they were apparently a mid-table side that he turned into a top team.
What I'm saying is, don't bother with him, because he's completely blinded to facts by his love for Poch.
However, with Poch, it's the opposite. Despite Tottenham very clearly challenging for Champions League spots before he joined, they were apparently a mid-table side that he turned into a top team.
What I'm saying is, don't bother with him, because he's completely blinded to facts by his love for Poch.
Tottenham had been in the champions league multiple times in the few years before Poch joined, they were nothing like Everton as has been pointed out to you multiple times.
Tottenham haven't been competing with City and Liverpool, as long as they've been challenging for the league, Poch hasn't been close to them.
The last time Tottenham got above 80 points (the only time) it was back when Chelsea were winning the league.
You have backtracked, you've been proven wrong.
They were never midtable, and likely won't be midtable once he's gone.
The closest they've been to midtable is where they are currently, 9th, above 10th on goal difference.
Many teams has been in the champions, not many teams has consistently been in the champions league. They were like Everton as that was their competition for Europa League. I don’t know why you are dismissing that there competition then and now is completely different. Spurs were never a real challenge to the team top, they couldn’t break past fourth pre Poch. 2007/2008, 2008/2009 and multiple years before that they were in the lower half of the league. Saying they were never mid table or even lower half is factual incorrect.
Yea because finished 2nd on multiple occasions doesn’t equate to being a top team. If Spurs finished like that pre-Poch then you would have an argument. Regardless, the Norwegian league is different than the premier league. Comparing the capabilities of a manager in that league is not even worth the time as Ole is showcasing right now.
That's my concern as well. It often gets brought up that he has taken Spurs into the top 4 with very limited investment, which is true, but that is only half of the story. That Tottenham squad has some really, really good players in it, and unless Poch scouts and makes all those deals himself, he does not really deserve all the credit because investment does not equal quality.
Kane, Son, Eriksen, Alderweireld/Verthongen, Alli and probably more could walk straight into out first XI and improve us immensely. Meanwhile we have squandered nearly a fecking billion since 2013, and what do we have to show for it? Pogba?
Despite lack of funds, Tottenham has a really good squad and i feel like Poch should have won something in his time there, even if it just was a Micky Mouse trophy
To be fair, I wanted Poch to succeed Fergie (assuming Pep was unattainable). Regardless of us being at the top in 2013, or where we are currently, I've always felt Poch would be a great choice to manage Manchester United, personally.
In the eight seasons before Ole's appointment, Molde finished outside the lower half of the table once, I've explained this to you before. But just like with Spur's finishes before Poch's appointment, you ignore it because it doesn't suit your narrative.
Besides, I wasn't comparing anything, I was highlighting your double-standards. One second place finish in a sea of lower-half finishes (including a relegation): top team. Consistently finishing between 4th and 6th: Mid-table. To anyone with even half a brain, that's broken logic.
Just because a team finish in the lower half of the table, doesn’t make them no longer a top team, in particular if that team has finished 2nd before. It is like saying that Manchester United is no longer a top team because we have finished mid table in Europa League position similar to Spurs pre Poch. Or Chelsea is no longer a top team with that said criteria as well. That applies to Molde. They just had appointed wrong manager and things were not going there way. No double standard here.