Winks is a good player, doesnt mean he cannot have poor games. But Henderson was the best midfielder on the park on Saturday.
A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
- Thread starter NotBrendanRodgers honest
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Winks is a good player, doesnt mean he cannot have poor games. But Henderson was the best midfielder on the park on Saturday.
We will agree to disagree on that one.
I agree really, but I think to be judged on the same basis as a Pep or a Klopp, he needs to take a job where the expectation and resources are comparable. Otherwise he just hasn't proven anything.
At the moment you have some people pining for him to manage United, but the reality is that since Ole took over Spurs have performed worse than United, and Pochettini has done little at Tottenham to suggest that isn't the norm.
Pointing to differing circumstances is a fair argument but also a two sided one. Pep/Klopp for example wouldn't settle for managing a team who are happy to finish 4th. Ole hasn't had 4 years to build a struggling 4th placed team etc.
The final this year us a bit of a red herring for me as I don't think they played well enough or were really good enough to be there in the first place. It happens in cup competitions and you take it...England nearly ended up in a world cup final and I wouldn't have been complaining. Consistently challenging and competing withbthe best is the barometer though.
As many have said, Poch has done an excellent job! Yes, getting to the CL final was great for them, but having those last gasp, back to back wins in the QF and SF were pretty freakish and not something that's likely to happen again, and imho, getting to the final is not an indicator off their actual level at this moment in time. If you look at their league form they've stagnated or even gone slightly backwards since they lost out to Leicester 4 years ago. Even if Poch has more money to spend, untily they actually start winning things, will he be albe to attract better than what they already have? If i was Pocch, i'd go all out to win a domestc Cup next season!
Our highest point was 16/17, in terms of consistency over a season. We were really good that year but sadly you were also brilliant under Conte.
I mean like an achievement(winning actually something rather than not).
In terms of quality and of course harder feat it's no doubt this CL run.
I've criticized him for the home leg against Ajax, but in the return and possibly any other game in the KO stage he has shown good tactical nous.
first bold bit - the Man Utd job sounds just about right.
second bold bit - did we make the champions league final? Also these mini leagues are tedious. I mean Brendan must be the best in the league on current form right?
third bold bit - might I remind you Spurs were not able to sign a SINGLE player this Summer whilst everyone else strengthened. All the other sides above them have spent more this Summer including the 2 directly below. look what happened to Man Utd when we were not able to sign the CB Moaninho coveted. Imagine of Ole was not able to sign a single player? do you think we'd finish above ANY of our rivals? Wolves? Leicester?
people forget how tuff Poch has it in terms of keeping pace. we are in the biggest spending league in the world where mid table sides splash 100 m's whilst Levy gave him nothing and expected something. Simply finishing 3rd again and getting CL is an outstanding acheivement especially as their one world class player kept getting injured. Doubt many other managers in the league would of managed. I think he deserves a break!
By idiots or those who know nothing about the subject, so let's not worry about their useless opinions on history.
savage
I'm seeing that train of thought on here more and more, and I can't express how annoying it is. It's probably the arrogance of publicly holding an opinion devoid of any factual context, and elevating said opinion to a position of importance, that's getting to me. Similar to climate change deniers, but at least those idiots blatantly misrepresent information to advance their theories, understanding that information does matter. Those under the Talledega Nights mentality of "anything but first place is unimportant and forgotten by all" decide to discount the probability of upgrading their deficient memories by deferring to more educated folk, using the internet, or using the Caf's search function, to be more knowledgeable and gain more context... and then they assume every individual will do the same, and unintentionally or intentionally choose to be ignorant. It's glorified stupidity worthy of only a crowded pub where facts shouldn't matter as much as banter, but useless in all other contexts. At least admit there's some element of wummery going on so that those who want to have an otherwise informed discussion don't have to waste brain power explaining why there are also achievements that may not be validated by a ribbon attached to a metal disk at the end, but are commendable in their own right.
Again, idiotic, and that's me being kind
I think he's the Best manager in London out of all the club's there, he didn't buy anyone last season and still got Champions league spot, also a final. Top man
Spurs were outplayed by Barcelona at Wembley, Man City at the Etihad and Ajax at home, that's 3 matches out of 13, that's not literally every team, even if you choose to make every case that we've been outplayed (as if it's only occurred to us), being outplayed by teams who shock horror play in Europe's prime competition is to be expected from time to time, every team with has been out outplayed at some point in the competition, it's a meaningless argument.
And since when do people place importance on being outplayed, it's the end result that matters - at least that's what I've been constantly told since Saturday evening and when we got knocked out by Juve last season.
Totally pointless thing to bring up, if you want talk about form why don't you focus on the first half of the season where Spurs' form was excellent which was largely a factor as to why we managed to get in the top four in the end.
Agree with that granted you can allow for stodgy performances due to mitigating circumstances that he was facing with the players being well and truly f'd and the amount of key injuries we had then he can be forgiven.
If he was at a bigger club he'd have money to spend, that's the point. There's clubs out there pissing up 500k a week and spending £100m on players, if spurs were in a position to do that he would undoubtedly be doing better, there's no science to it.I think the time for him to go is now. He has taken Spurs on a lot but will he get the backing to carry on as is needed? In addition many of his squad are injury prone so getting rid of them will be hard. This is a watershed summer for Spurs so Juventus could be too good to turn down.
He is still at Spurs doing a job that would get him sacked from the United job so it's hard to say for him. I wouldn't see him as a guaranteed success at United. I think it would be an unknown and a risk.
I don't care about mini leagues but the championing of poch over Ole at this stage makes little sense given the comparison available. As I said it's a double sided argument as you can say Pochettino has done this and that at Spurs, but actually that just raises the question of why Ole doing pretty much the same thing at United over a much smaller period of time should rule him out yet can be used to advocate someone else.
Every argument is just self defeating. Pochettino has signed barely anyone...well, he's had the chance to, or the chance to go elsewhere if he isn't happy with being a nearly man. Ole has not signed anyone for United either yet so it's impossible to use this argument against him and for Pochettino. You are claiming Ole would not finish above Wolves but literally all you have to go on is half a season where actually he would have finished 3rd and well above Tottenham (who would have been below Wolves). You might not like comparisons but it is the only one you have apart from just making shit up.
He's got Spurs 4th...So what. 4th isn't good enough for a successful side. Especially not after managing them for a few years or more. It is good enough for Spurs.
He got them to a CL final yes, but with a latge ek3ment of luck. then they lost the game in 26 seconds to a Liverpool side that didn't really turn up. He made an obvious error in starting Kane. In the end they have had a worse season than Chelsea.
I just find the Pochettino love in weird considering he has actually done very little other than find a comfort zone
Spurs were outplayed by Barcelona at Wembley, Man City at the Etihad and Ajax at home, that's 3 matches out of 13, that's not literally every team, even if you choose to make every case that we've been outplayed (as if it's only occurred to us), being outplayed by teams who shock horror play in Europe's prime competition is to be expected from time to time, every team with has been out outplayed at some point in the competition, it's a meaningless argument.
And since when do people place importance on being outplayed, it's the end result that matters - at least that's what I've been constantly told since Saturday evening and when we got knocked out by Juve last season.
Totally pointless thing to bring up, if you want talk about form why don't you focus on the first half of the season where Spurs' form was excellent which was largely a factor as to why we managed to get in the top four in the end.
Agree with that granted you can allow for stodgy performances due to mitigating circumstances that he was facing with the players being well and truly f'd and the amount of key injuries we had then he can be forgiven.
Well yes but none of this addresses the point really. You can't say he would be doing better if he was at a club that spends more on signings/salaries etc. Because he has never tried. Plenty of managers have looked decent until they were under pressure to win things and managing players with egos who expect to win things.
Finishing top four with Spurs doesn't prove he can't do it but it doesn't prove he can either. It just proves he can finish 4th when managing Spurs.
I'd probably say the same as you about the CL if I was a Spurs fan, but from my point of view, you aren't one of the best sides in Europe. You barely managed to finish above us and arsenal in the league. Liverpool are obviously the better side. They have been over the course of the season and in the Champions League. I don't like them but it's there for all to see.
Yes you have spent next to nothing on your team compared to them, but again this is just driving a slower car then expecting the same credit as the guy who drove the faster one and win the race. A winner would just come back with a faster car next year.
How involved is Pochettino with transfers? Do Spurs have a scouting structure in place which enables them to identify and obtain players who are better/have more potential than their price tag suggests? OR does Pochettino do a remarkable job of making players look better than they are through his coaching? And for all I know, maybe it's both to an extent.
Essentially what I'm trying to figure out is, how much of Spurs' recent success is due to having the right structure in place vs how much of it is due to the manager.
Essentially what I'm trying to figure out is, how much of Spurs' recent success is due to having the right structure in place vs how much of it is due to the manager.
Finishing in the top 4 (yet again) and reaching the CL final is something that Ole can only dream of at this point.Oh yeah I entirely agree. The idea that you can't do anything of merit at a football club without winning trophies is blatantly absurd, and anybody who holds said view has an extremely narrow way of thinking and is probably best ignored on the issue.
If you honestly look at Pochettino's time at Spurs and where he's taken us and go 'yep, hasn't won silverware so I'm not impressed he's achieved nothing' then honestly I really don't see how there's any place for a debate. If you can't understand why taking the mess left behind by AVB/Sherwood and turning that team in to a consistent top four side and CL finalists is a successful stint as a manager, then maybe you need to think about how logical your position is. Especially when he's worked under a transfer/wage budget far tighter than the rivals he is up against, most of which are also world class managers with fantastic reputations.
But yeah, for some he would have done a better job if we finished 6th every season but had fluked a league or FA cup somewhere along the road. This forum in particular is absolutely obsessed with the 'if you don't win a trophy you've failed' logic and it's absolutely horrific, people were 100% ready to deem Klopp a failure had Liverpool lost the CL final, despite leading his side to a final and a 97 point finish. It's utterly absurd. Your opinion on a manager or a team shouldn't shift so radically based on one off games.
Poch is a fantastic coach, and his lack of trophies will soon be forgotten if/when he moves to a club where the structure is in place to facilitate regular trophies. Just like Sarri at Chelsea who I'm sure plenty on here consider to have had a better season this year than he did in his final year at Napoli, just because silverware was won.
He is part of a 3 man transfer committee - which includes Levy and our head of youth development - and no player is signed or sold without his agreement.
Not winning anything is something that any manager can do any season if they want. No one is claiming Ole is a great manager at this point.
Have to take issue with the Poch negativity, give the guy some credit, he's been a breath of fresh air in prem, gets mediocre players, playing.
And spurs be insane to leave him get away, best manager in London by far. Im not a spurs fan.
And spurs be insane to leave him get away, best manager in London by far. Im not a spurs fan.
Yeah any manager can get to a CL final by beating Dortmund, City, Ajax. Easy task, simple stuff.
Also .. clearly not any manager can get a team in the top 4, quite clearly. Some very good ones have failed at this task.
If you view success in football management purely through the prism of trophies won then that's pure folly.
Dude had 0 signings in the summer. Reached top 4 and a CL final. He's class.
So if Ole finishes in the top 4 next season and reaches the CL final (just as Pochettino has done for Spurs), according to you United would sack him?
No one actually believes your pretentious nonsense.
Only drawback is his lack of success, but if he continues on his current trajectory, they'll come with time. Great manager and a likeable bloke too
That’s a very fair response Squishy. He’s had bugger all to spend but has got a team playing above their station imo, with a CL Final and top 4 again. Brilliant manager, deserves a club that will back him with serious funds. In the PL it’s going to take some serious money now to compete with City and Pool. If he leaves Spurs I hope it is for a team with serious ambitions and the money to match. United should, theoretically, be the one team in England to offer that - but I suspect we are so far off the pace he will move, if indeed he does, to somewhere else in Europe.
If it was his fourth year in charge and we'd played at a similar level to you I doubt the mood would be positive on here. It already isn't positive and he's only had 6 months so far. A CL final might save his job temporarily in those circumstances but then based on Woodward's behaviour in the past I wouldn't be sure of that.
What shows the difference is that you consider getting to a final and losing an achievement. England have had 6 losing CL finalists in what, the last 12 years? At a cllub like Liverpool, Chelsea, United etc. it means next to nothing. Chelsea sacked Grant after he lost a CL final.
If Pochettino is going to stay at Spurs and prove himself then that's the mentality he will need to instill. There's no pressure on him as your manager because 4th place and no trophies isn't seen as a failure.
Getting to the CL final is rightly seen as an achievement. Losing it isn't.
Moreover, you're now back-tracking. First, it was "would get him sacked", now it's "might save his job temporarily". But you fool no-one: given United's top 4 record since Fergie retired, the vast majority of United fans would bite your hand off for a top 4 finish next season and the chance to win a CL final (hypothetically setting aside the fact that you won't be playing in the CL next season). ... and that's even taking into account another summer of vast spending by United.
You talk about "if it was his 4th year in charge" .... yet how much have United spent during that period? Bucket-loads.
Because of the need for stadium and other construction investment Spurs have spent just £15m net on transfers over the last 10 years. This is what Pochettino inherited and has had to work with over the last 5 years. And he's worked miracles.
The truth is United would take Pochettino like a shot if they could get him. But you fall back on this nonsense that if Pochettino has joined United he would have been sacked for "only" making top 4 and the CL final.
Well, the clear absurdity of your claim will never be proven, because Pochettino is beyond United's reach.
When he was appointed Spurs were finishing 6th/7th. It's no shock now when they finish in the top 4 now and it's also crucial with paying the bills for the new stadium.
It's a little bit like Wenger continually qualifying for CL in the early Emirates years. People found it boring as Arsenal weren't winning anything but given time it actually looks impressive given their issues now and he was constantly losing key players in those years (Hleb, Henry, RVP, Cesc etc).
The same ones praising Poch would be all over Ole for not motivating the players.
Says it all, really.
It was a horrible mangerial performance by any standards. Liverpool were poor on the night but got a lifeline from the line up and lack of motivation. It just passed spurs by which was horrible to watch for a Utd fan. Hav8ng Kane as a b
threat from the bench and giving Moura the nod for his brilliance in the semis does not need hindsight. Son down the middle would.have also been a plus as it's been his stand out position this season. Loch will be fecking devastated by his performance no doubt.
threat from the bench and giving Moura the nod for his brilliance in the semis does not need hindsight. Son down the middle would.have also been a plus as it's been his stand out position this season. Loch will be fecking devastated by his performance no doubt.
It's always better to be a winner than loser, it builds confidence and it breeds a mentality of wanting more.
Well said.
When you look at Tottenham's net spend and quality of player on the pitch, they shouldn't be anywhere near a CL final. There is no debate really as to whether's he's done a good job or not.
Trippier and Rose are average full backs now and Sissoko and Winks probably aren't CL level midfielders, never mind starters in a final. They are what you'd call squad players but they haven't invested so he's had to rely on them when fit.
To do what he's done with that team and level of investment is remarkable, and he really could achieve something big with actual backing in terms of incoming transfers.
Trippier and Rose are average full backs now and Sissoko and Winks probably aren't CL level midfielders, never mind starters in a final. They are what you'd call squad players but they haven't invested so he's had to rely on them when fit.
To do what he's done with that team and level of investment is remarkable, and he really could achieve something big with actual backing in terms of incoming transfers.
I call it unbelievable to be honest, but remarkable is good as well. As I stated earlier, Pochettino needs serious investment with ready made quality players not average players that he can develop.
He needs Dybala, NoDombele, Varane, and so on. Not Grealish, Brooks and Wilson.
Can't really call Poch a failure based on his lack of trophies, it's unfair I feel. He's not exactly going to prioritise the LC when he's got such a small squad and teams like City can play elite second XI's. He's guaranteed CL football every season despite serious financial constraints. Levy knows how good of a manger he is, and that he can achieve the CL on a smaller budget due to his quality as a manager. If Poch walked out last summer, Levy would have had to appoint a seriously top top manager or given a new manager a big budget to guarantee CL football. As it was, Poch decided not to sign anyone (probably because the money wasn't there, apart from £20m for Grealish) and delivered playing most of the season in a neutral home.
If Levy wants Spurs to compete seriously for trophies then he needs to back Poch. Ultimately Poch may be a victim of his own 'success', Spurs have got to the CL final this season without signing anyone so again Levy may just provide a small budget instead of pushing the boat out.
IMO Spurs are in need of serious investment if they want to compete for trophies consistently over the next few years. Lloris is not the GK he once was, and they should be looking at a replacement for him. Trippier needs to go, he's nowhere near good enough and there are question marks over Aurier. Alderweireld has his release clause and that could be activated, leaving them with 3 CB's. Rose has regressed and they should probably be looking at another LB. CM is a massive problem for them as Demeble has left, Wanyama is made of glass and has declined and there is a lack of depth/quality in there. Alli has been quite poor this season, and the others need more competition and back-up. All the talk is of Eriksen leaving as well. I'm not sure Spurs can hope that Poch works his magic on the pitch and off it in terms of transfers for much longer.
If Levy wants Spurs to compete seriously for trophies then he needs to back Poch. Ultimately Poch may be a victim of his own 'success', Spurs have got to the CL final this season without signing anyone so again Levy may just provide a small budget instead of pushing the boat out.
IMO Spurs are in need of serious investment if they want to compete for trophies consistently over the next few years. Lloris is not the GK he once was, and they should be looking at a replacement for him. Trippier needs to go, he's nowhere near good enough and there are question marks over Aurier. Alderweireld has his release clause and that could be activated, leaving them with 3 CB's. Rose has regressed and they should probably be looking at another LB. CM is a massive problem for them as Demeble has left, Wanyama is made of glass and has declined and there is a lack of depth/quality in there. Alli has been quite poor this season, and the others need more competition and back-up. All the talk is of Eriksen leaving as well. I'm not sure Spurs can hope that Poch works his magic on the pitch and off it in terms of transfers for much longer.
Poch has consistently got teams to a level but been unable to progress once they hit that.
At Spurs he is now hiding behind the lack of investment, whereas he has actually spent a fair bit of cash, albeit not as much as some of the other top club's.
Let's not forget that since Poch has been in management in the premiership, Wigan and Leicester have won major domestic trophies, which proves you don't need a huge budget to win.
Also let's not forget his mitigated last season disaster at Espanyol.
A good manager no doubt, but certainly a long way off being a great manager, the funny thing is Ole has won more as a manager than Poch, even Roberto Di Matteo has!
At Spurs he is now hiding behind the lack of investment, whereas he has actually spent a fair bit of cash, albeit not as much as some of the other top club's.
Let's not forget that since Poch has been in management in the premiership, Wigan and Leicester have won major domestic trophies, which proves you don't need a huge budget to win.
Also let's not forget his mitigated last season disaster at Espanyol.
A good manager no doubt, but certainly a long way off being a great manager, the funny thing is Ole has won more as a manager than Poch, even Roberto Di Matteo has!
Since no one is giving you the attention that you're craving for, allow me to entertain your post.
Posts like this is the reason the quality of the Caf is declining.
What you just said was: Ole > Poch, because Ole was part of our most successful period and he knows the club well. And Poch is shit because of how he did in the Champions League final, the final round of the biggest club football competition in the world? No credit to Poch for actually getting this budget team to the final? Jeez.
Now read your post again, and read it slower this time.
The insane amounts of luck had to run out sometime.
As for the quality of the players on the pitch they can field two CB's that is better than anything United has, probably the worlds best striker when on form in Kane, a solid goalie in Lloris, Eriksen and a top class winger in Son. Alli, Trippier and Rose are all good players as well. It really isn't that big of a shock to see them go all the way to the final. However, with the way they've played for the last months they definitely shouldn't have been there and the performance in the final was embarrasing.
1)what United manager has been sacked for 4th? as long as we make CL, our managers are safe. I don't know what you have been watching because evidently this is not the case.
2) you say you don't care about mini leagues then use a mini league to justify your opinion which makes no sense. Ole is not doing anything like what Poch has achieved. Pochettino has cleared out Spurs squad, rebuilt it and competed at the top end for 4 consecutive seasons, whilst promoting youth players and spending very little. If you think Ole has done the same then you have ignored all of what Poch has done at Spurs.
3)Has he? who has he had a chance to go to? United jumped in and signed up Ole so I don't know if this is true.
4)The half season league is meaningless. How can you deduce we would finish above Spurs when we ended the season on relegation form with no signs of that ending. The chances are if the season were longer, we would continue losing games and drop down the table. I saw nothing from Ole that suggested he could end the slump unfortunately.....
5)4th has been good enough for United with are huge spending so it is certainly good enough when you have no net transfer spend.