A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

bleedred said:
If Both Ole and Poch finish in top 4 next year and go out of it the year after, who do you think will get the sack?.
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That's not exactly an apples to apples comparison given the managers and their histories.

Better question. If both jobs were available today, would a manager who finished top 4 next year and out of it the following year last longer at United or Spurs? I would say the chances are equal, because both teams have CL football as the minimum requirement.
 
MackRobinson said:
That's not exactly an apples to apples comparison given the managers and their histories.

Better question. If both jobs were available today, would a manager who finished top 4 next year and out of it the following year last longer at United or Spurs? I would say the chances are equal, because both teams have CL football as the minimum requirement.
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Not at United. Our fanbase, rightly or wrongly, expect to kick on after that. We demand trophies and more and that's why we have even sacked managers who have won us things as @noodlehair has said. Spurs, and I mean no disrespect, have hit the managerial ceiling, in terms of performance and their expectations. If any of our managers had performed similar to pochettinho with us, we would still demand more. You can call the fans as spoilt, but that's an entirely different argument.
 
bleedred said:
Not at United. Our fanbase, rightly or wrongly, expect to kick on after that. We demand trophies and more and that's why we have even sacked managers who have won us things as @noodlehair has said. Spurs, and I mean no disrespect, have hit the managerial ceiling, in terms of performance and their expectations. If any of our managers had performed similar to pochettinho with us, we would still demand more. You can call the fans as spoilt, but that's an entirely different argument.
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I don't think the expectations of the fans filter through to Woodward and co.

And yeah, United fans are spoilt.
 
bleedred said:
Not at United. Our fanbase, rightly or wrongly, expect to kick on after that. We demand trophies and more and that's why we have even sacked managers who have won us things as @noodlehair has said. Spurs, and I mean no disrespect, have hit the managerial ceiling, in terms of performance and their expectations. If any of our managers had performed similar to pochettinho with us, we would still demand more. You can call the fans as spoilt, but that's an entirely different argument.
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Not if you spent nothing for about 2 years and relied on the 6th biggest wage budget in the league whilst competing against teams who spend 165m in one window and others who pay bench players 200k+ a week.

Well, some might. But they would be properly stupid people and not worth listening to at all. United fans expectations are in line with your transfer/wage spending, because there's a direct correlation between how much you spend and how successful you are in football, so expecting Pochettino to completely buck that trend and be ultra successful despite being at a massive financial disadvantage is .. unrealistic, and that's putting it in a nice way.

United fans would be demanding more investment at board level if the situations were reversed, not demanding more of the manager.
 
bleedred said:
Not at United. Our fanbase, rightly or wrongly, expect to kick on after that. We demand trophies and more and that's why we have even sacked managers who have won us things as @noodlehair has said. Spurs, and I mean no disrespect, have hit the managerial ceiling, in terms of performance and their expectations. If any of our managers had performed similar to pochettinho with us, we would still demand more. You can call the fans as spoilt, but that's an entirely different argument.
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A fanbase wanting to build on successes is not exclusive to Manchester United fans. Expectations change for every club. Three years ago Liverpool would be ecstatic with a top 4 finish. Now it would be seen as a disappointment if they don't challenge. This past season, you had a large section of the United fans arguing on a daily basis that Mourinho should be given more despite being out of the title race and not in the top 4 in November. You even have fans calling Jose's 2nd place "a great achievement".

Regardless of the above, the the board sets the expectations not the fans, and much of their expectations are based on current circumstances. United's last six league positions are 7th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 6th with no title challenges and poor results in the CL while having a net spend only less than City. Any realistic United fan would snatch your hand off right now if you offerred them a manager who would plays attractive football, consistently qualifies and plays well in the CL, and has made a CL final (regardless of Spurs luck). Sure as time progresses fans AND the board would want more, but we can both agree that is mainly due to the gulf in investment and that's not a relevant factor right now.
 
Hughie77 said:
They are spurs and have always lacked ambition, but things are going to change, new stadium top one in London, bar Wembley.
They need to keep Poch, or go backwards even with there Shiny new top class stadium.

Levy is a money man, just like Woodward there lays the problem in ambition on the pitch.?

Could follow the Chelsea mantra sack a manager every 1 -2 seasons get new blood but it's worked pretty well at that club?
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We were all told that moving to a shiny new stadium would take Arsenal to a new level. Well, it's done that alright because they are now two levels below what they once were.
As we know, in recent years Wigan have won the FA Cup and Leicester have won the league. Man for man Poch's are better than both those teams. Man for man his team is better than the current Chelsea team who have very moderate strikers and a midfield that can't score or create goals, yet they still finished above Spurs and won a Cup.
You can't gloss over this. As I've said, I like and rate Poch, but at the moment there is still something missing from him as s manager.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
Not if you spent nothing for about 2 years and relied on the 6th biggest wage budget in the league whilst competing against teams who spend 165m in one window and others who pay bench players 200k+ a week.

Well, some might. But they would be properly stupid people and not worth listening to at all. United fans expectations are in line with your transfer/wage spending, because there's a direct correlation between how much you spend and how successful you are in football, so expecting Pochettino to completely buck that trend and be ultra successful despite being at a massive financial disadvantage is .. unrealistic, and that's putting it in a nice way.

United fans would be demanding more investment at board level if the situations were reversed, not demanding more of the manager.
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Leicester won the title with a lesser budget and its not just about the league titles, Teams with far inferior budgets have managed to win a trophy or two. Mind you, none of my posts are a criticism of Poch per se. I am just trying to address that the managerial expectations at United are far higher (from the fans). Investment or not, United fans demand more. Case in point: Half of our lot would drive Ole back to Molde, to get the next flavor of the month manger, and that's not just because its Ole or his terrible run.

Fans would expect more from both tbh.

Hypothetically, if Poch gets what he wants in the summer and has a meltdown similar to Jose, do you think he will get the sack?. Or to put it simply, under what scenario would you consider sacking Poch?. As I said before, atleast to me, and I don't mean any disrespect, with Poch you have attained the managerial ceiling and that's as good as it will probably get, investment or not.
 
MackRobinson said:
A fanbase wanting to build on successes is not exclusive to Manchester United fans. Expectations change for every club. Three years ago Liverpool would be ecstatic with a top 4 finish. Now it would be seen as a disappointment if they don't challenge. This past season, you had a large section of the United fans arguing on a daily basis that Mourinho should be given more despite being out of the title race and not in the top 4 in November. You even have fans calling Jose's 2nd place "a great achievement".

Regardless of the above, the the board sets the expectations not the fans, and much of their expectations are based on current circumstances. United's last six league positions are 7th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 6th with no title challenges and poor results in the CL while having a net spend only less than City. Any realistic United fan would snatch your hand off right now if you offerred them a manager who would plays attractive football, consistently qualifies and plays well in the CL, and has made a CL final (regardless of Spurs luck). Sure as time progresses fans AND the board would want more, but we can both agree that is mainly due to the gulf in investment and that's not a relevant factor right now.
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Same question as to my previous post, If Poch gets what he wants in the summer and has a meltdown, do you think he would get the sack?.
 
bleedred said:
Leicester won the title with a lesser budget and its not just about the league titles, Teams with far inferior budgets have managed to win a trophy or two. Mind you, none of my posts are a criticism of Poch per se. I am just trying to address that the managerial expectations at United are far higher (from the fans). Investment or not, United fans demand more. Case in point: Half of our lot would drive Ole back to Molde, to get the next flavor of the month manger, and that's not just because its Ole or his terrible run.

Fans would expect more from both tbh.

Hypothetically, if Poch gets what he wants in the summer and has a meltdown similar to Jose, do you think he will get the sack?. Or to put it simply, under what scenario would you consider sacking Poch?. As I said before, atleast to me, and I don't mean any disrespect, with Poch you have attained the managerial ceiling and that's as good as it will probably get, investment or not.
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Oh man I love the 'Leicester did it angle!" as if it is in any way the bar and not a random fluke event which has happened once in the history of the Premier League. Leicester had a perfect season and were a miracle, they haven't remained consistent with their level at all because it was a one off season.

Give me a list of teams who spend less than the rest of their league's top six and regularly win trophies. Go on, I challenge you to find them. Not sides who have won the odd league or FA cup, or a team like Atletico who spend less than the top two but still have a very significant budget and are comfortably third in that respect. Maybe a team like Dortmund are the only exception, but even they are a bigger financial force than anybody bar Bayern in their league, and as soon as Bayern got their act together they completely dominated the league.

If fans of United would expect Pochettino to win the league/cl despite having the 6th biggest wage budget in the league and mid-table level transfer spending, then those fans are absolutely delusional and shouldn't be listened to.

If Pochettino got backed financially in the summer and then had a 'meltdown' (by which you mean what? 6th or 7th?) then yes he would probably be sacked, there's little patience in modern football at any club. Pochettino hasn't been under any pressure at Spurs because every single season he's matched or exceeded his targets.
 
bleedred said:
Same question as to my previous post, If Poch gets what he wants in the summer and has a meltdown, do you think he would get the sack?.
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Your questions are very vague but I will answer yours provided you answer mine.

Lets assume by "meltdown" you mean finish outside the top 4 and perform poorly in Europe:

Are we ignoring his history with Spurs? Yes, he would be sacked. Just as Redknapp (actually came in 4th but Chelsea's CL win took Spurs' CL spot). IIRC Villas Boas lasted an additional 6 months due to his record points total the previous season, but his job was always in a precarious position after finishing 5th.

Are we taking into account his history with Spurs? No, he would be given the beginning of the following season to show progress due to the amount of goodwill he has at the club. No different than Rodgers with Liverpool IIRC.

Same question as before: If both jobs were available today, would a manager who finished top 4 next year and out of it the following year last longer at United or Spurs?
 
Welby5 said:
We were all told that moving to a shiny new stadium would take Arsenal to a new level. Well, it's done that alright because they are now two levels below what they once were.
As we know, in recent years Wigan have won the FA Cup and Leicester have won the league. Man for man Poch's are better than both those teams. Man for man his team is better than the current Chelsea team who have very moderate strikers and a midfield that can't score or create goals, yet they still finished above Spurs and won a Cup.
You can't gloss over this. As I've said, I like and rate Poch, but at the moment there is still something missing from him as s manager.
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What's missing is a club to follow his ambition, and that's why Woodward should have broken the bank to get him, instead of nostalgic reasons in the Appointment he made, unless there's still a possibility next season, because Woodward is going to give OGS , a chance , and I don't think it will happen, hope it does, something tells me hope?
 
Manager says to a player the club want to sign 'i want you to play for me' shocker!! And the player reciprocates shocker!!
The funny thing is the only decision Ndombele had was Spurs or staying at Lyon, more money at Spurs but it was Poch who swung the decision apparently!!
 
Champ said:
Manager says to a player the club want to sign 'i want you to play for me' shocker!! And the player reciprocates shocker!!
The funny thing is the only decision Ndombele had was Spurs or staying at Lyon, more money at Spurs but it was Poch who swung the decision apparently!!
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How on earth would you possibly know this was the case?
 
TsuWave said:


Poch effect
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The Earth is round. Not surprising that players want to play with one of the best managers in the world. Spurs hit the lottery with Pochettino. They would be no different from Everton without him.

I m interested to see this newly rebuilt Spurs team. It was obvious that the Spurs squad lacked quality as most recently seen with the champions league finals they should have won and that Pochettino was pushing them to their limit. Now with actually talent in their team that give players competition, I predict Spurs will be a different monster this season.

Ali, and Trippier were below par this season and some could say that a reason for that was that they didn’t have any real competition and their place was not in any harm if they played like shite. Now , with Pochettino improving his squad depth, I believe he will create a stronger team that can challenge City and Liverpool. However, only if he gets the players he wants. E.g., N’Dombele, Lo Celso/Olmo, Cellballos, center back, right back and maybe auxiliary striker.
 
Amadaeus said:
The Earth is round. Not surprising that players want to play with one of the best managers in the world. Spurs hit the lottery with Pochettino. They would be no different from Everton without him.

I m interested to see this newly rebuilt Spurs team. It was obvious that the Spurs squad lacked quality as most recently seen with the champions league finals they should have won and that Pochettino was pushing them to their limit. Now with actually talent in their team that give players competition, I predict Spurs will be a different monster this season.

Ali, and Trippier were below par this season and some could say that a reason for that was that they didn’t have any real competition and their place was not in any harm if they played like shite. Now , with Pochettino improving his squad depth, I believe he will create a stronger team that can challenge City and Liverpool. However, only if he gets the players he wants. E.g., N’Dombele, Lo Celso/Olmo, Cellballos, center back, right back and maybe auxiliary striker.
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Now about a love story..
 
Amadaeus said:
The Earth is round. Not surprising that players want to play with one of the best managers in the world. Spurs hit the lottery with Pochettino. They would be no different from Everton without him.

I m interested to see this newly rebuilt Spurs team. It was obvious that the Spurs squad lacked quality as most recently seen with the champions league finals they should have won and that Pochettino was pushing them to their limit. Now with actually talent in their team that give players competition, I predict Spurs will be a different monster this season.

Ali, and Trippier were below par this season and some could say that a reason for that was that they didn’t have any real competition and their place was not in any harm if they played like shite. Now , with Pochettino improving his squad depth, I believe he will create a stronger team that can challenge City and Liverpool. However, only if he gets the players he wants. E.g., N’Dombele, Lo Celso/Olmo, Cellballos, center back, right back and maybe auxiliary striker.
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It's not just Pochettino, they have one of the best strikers in the game that cost them nothing. A 20+ goals a season striker is a lot of money in the xfer market nowadays. I think a lot depends on what is actually going on with Eriksen. Doubt they will bring in Lo Celso/Ceballos unless he moves on.
 
Champ said:
Manager says to a player the club want to sign 'i want you to play for me' shocker!! And the player reciprocates shocker!!
The funny thing is the only decision Ndombele had was Spurs or staying at Lyon, more money at Spurs but it was Poch who swung the decision apparently!!
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From his comments he suggest he had a choice to make, he was always going to be sold this window as their chairman suggested.
 
Aaron Wan-Bissaka on Ole persuasion:
”It's hard to describe but he knows how to give out chocolate, to not park in your space. He looked me in the eye and said "I’ll make you run more than any other RB in the league, and I’m going to be successful here, and we may be working on one or two transfers". That kind of thing made me want to sign. I saw that he really had a hairdryer.”
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
Oh man I love the 'Leicester did it angle!" as if it is in any way the bar and not a random fluke event which has happened once in the history of the Premier League. Leicester had a perfect season and were a miracle, they haven't remained consistent with their level at all because it was a one off season.

Give me a list of teams who spend less than the rest of their league's top six and regularly win trophies. Go on, I challenge you to find them. Not sides who have won the odd league or FA cup, or a team like Atletico who spend less than the top two but still have a very significant budget and are comfortably third in that respect. Maybe a team like Dortmund are the only exception, but even they are a bigger financial force than anybody bar Bayern in their league, and as soon as Bayern got their act together they completely dominated the league.

If fans of United would expect Pochettino to win the league/cl despite having the 6th biggest wage budget in the league and mid-table level transfer spending, then those fans are absolutely delusional and shouldn't be listened to.

If Pochettino got backed financially in the summer and then had a 'meltdown' (by which you mean what? 6th or 7th?) then yes he would probably be sacked, there's little patience in modern football at any club. Pochettino hasn't been under any pressure at Spurs because every single season he's matched or exceeded his targets.
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When Dortmund won the league in 2011 and the double in 2012, and got to the CL final in 2013, it was with teams that cost so very little to put together. In those seasons, Dortmund barely spent more than 5-10 mill a year on players, with as much as and often more money being brought back in through sales. It was a club ran on a shoestring, due to the financial difficulties that led to the almost bankruptcy in 2005. The team that played in the 2013 CL final for instance, cost just £35m to put together.

It wasn’t just Bayern who Dortmund where competing with then either, and it wasn’t just Bayern that where outspending Dortmund during those years, it was the likes of Wolfsburg, HSV and Leverkusen too.

Of course I think Poch is a fantastic coach, but I also think he tends to get over hyped an awful lot too.

But I also very much believe that it isn’t all about trophies won. To compare managers like Poch and Klopp with the likes of Guardiola is ridiculous, as you just have to look at their respective careers to see that winning trophies is the last thing that was expected of them when they where at their earlier clubs, unlike for Guardiola who always had the best teams and / or the most money to make the best teams.

But there comes a time when a coach has to take that big next step. I look at Poch and his team at Spurs, they have been together a while now, and to this point he hasn’t had to lose hardly any significant players (very different to how it was for Klopp at Dortmund for instance). This Spurs team is an excellent team and it has been a very settled team, but this year was the first time Poch has taken a team further than the last 16 in European competition. And taking teams deep into European competition year on year is a requisite of the best coaches in Europe, which is another reason why the hype for Poch is somewhat overstated at the moment.

As for trophies, sure, I don’t think anyone expect them to overtake Man City, but I would think he needs to be getting this team to more finals, and winning one too. FA Cup is a great place to start, even the League cup is a good place to start for a coach who hasn’t ever won anything and a club who hasn’t won anything for a long time. It’d actually be a shame if this Spurs team doesn’t win anything before they break up, as winning a cup is the one way they will be immortalised.
 
Borussin said:
When Dortmund won the league in 2011 and the double in 2012, and got to the CL final in 2013, it was with teams that cost so very little to put together. In those seasons, Dortmund barely spent more than 5-10 mill a year on players, with as much as and often more money being brought back in through sales. It was a club ran on a shoestring, due to the financial difficulties that led to the almost bankruptcy in 2005. The team that played in the 2013 CL final for instance, cost just £35m to put together.

It wasn’t just Bayern who Dortmund where competing with then either, and it wasn’t just Bayern that where outspending Dortmund during those years, it was the likes of Wolfsburg, HSV and Leverkusen too.

Of course I think Poch is a fantastic coach, but I also think he tends to get over hyped an awful lot too.

But I also very much believe that it isn’t all about trophies won. To compare managers like Poch and Klopp with the likes of Guardiola is ridiculous, as you just have to look at their respective careers to see that winning trophies is the last thing that was expected of them when they where at their earlier clubs, unlike for Guardiola who always had the best teams and / or the most money to make the best teams.

But there comes a time when a coach has to take that big next step. I look at Poch and his team at Spurs, they have been together a while now, and to this point he hasn’t had to lose hardly any significant players (very different to how it was for Klopp at Dortmund for instance). This Spurs team is an excellent team and it has been a very settled team, but this year was the first time Poch has taken a team further than the last 16 in European competition. And taking teams deep into European competition year on year is a requisite of the best coaches in Europe, which is another reason why the hype for Poch is somewhat overstated at the moment.

As for trophies, sure, I don’t think anyone expect them to overtake Man City, but I would think he needs to be getting this team to more finals, and winning one too. FA Cup is a great place to start, even the League cup is a good place to start for a coach who hasn’t ever won anything and a club who hasn’t won anything for a long time. It’d actually be a shame if this Spurs team doesn’t win anything before they break up, as winning a cup is the one way they will be immortalised.
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Yes, Dortmund did very well. They also struck gold with a number of excellent signings which is incredibly rare and hard to repeat.

Taking deeps 'deep in to european competition year on year' is a requisite for coaches with top budgets at top teams, not at Spurs .. only Pochettino has made that an expectation. And last season we topped our group but were very unlucky to meet Juventus in the first round. And then we got to the final this season, which pep has failed to do at city .. big expectations for knockout competitions are always a bit silly.

We've been to a couple of finals and numerous semi finals. And winning the league/fa cup would do very little for us and wouldn't be this catalyst for success as people see it, consistently being in the top 4 is far more important for us as a club, even if a trophy would be very nice for the fans. The point is that we don't want this team to get broken up, we want to stay at this level continuously and Pochettino has set the foundations for that going forward. We're very stable, have fantastic income now, and even if we do lose a player or two we can replace them. The goal is to assert ourselves as one of the premier league's big four, and that goal is well on the way to completion.
 


Trophy for Pochettino. Even though it was preseason, they faced tough competitions in Bayern and Madrid to lift it.

With Pochettino seemingly aware that Spurs don’t have the resources of a big club, and if Ole get us top four, I believe we should lure Pochettino next season. He is only going backwards at Spurs.
 
Amadaeus said:


Trophy for Pochettino. Even though it was preseason, they faced tough competitions in Bayern and Madrid to lift it.

With Pochettino seemingly aware that Spurs don’t have the resources of a big club, and if Ole get us top four, I believe we should lure Pochettino next season. He is only going backwards at Spurs.
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Come the feck on :lol:
 
He can go back to Argentina, retire and tell everyone about it now. He lived the dream.
 
Amadaeus said:


Trophy for Pochettino. Even though it was preseason, they faced tough competitions in Bayern and Madrid to lift it.

With Pochettino seemingly aware that Spurs don’t have the resources of a big club, and if Ole get us top four, I believe we should lure Pochettino next season. He is only going backwards at Spurs.
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I really wasn’t sure about you, but now I know you’re a wum! Well played.
 
Winning the Audi Cup is truly the stuff of dreams for any manager. Pochettino had probably been dreaming of winning it from its inception 10 years ago. I don't think Sir Alex Ferguson ever won it so Pochettino > Ferguson.
 
I think it's the perfect time for both of Poch and Spurs to part away regardless of anyone rating him or not.

He seems to have given them pretty much all he has as a manager and is eager for a new challenge.

Spurs also I think they'll benefit from some new ideas.

Both should part away after this season.
 
el3mel said:
I think it's the perfect time for both of Poch and Spurs to part away regardless of anyone rating him or not.

He seems to have given them pretty much all he has as a manager and is eager for a new challenge.

Spurs also I think they'll benefit from some new ideas.

Both should part away after this season.
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I agree. Pochettino today played a weaker team than his strongest team last season. His board was suppose to back him this summer, but he still has a midfield of Winks and Sissoko, KWP as replacements for first choice right back, and lamela and Moura starting games for him. This along with with Eriksen unhappy, Vertonghen, Rose and Alderweireld both question mark of their future. Once N’Dombele got injured it is clear to see a drop in quality in Spurs side. It is best for Pochettino to walk out and go to a club who can match his ambitions.
 
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