Since everyone likes to talk about net spend so much I'll just point out we made a small profit that year. We bought those two but also sold Walcott, Giroud, Coquelin, Gabriel and Chamberlain.
A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
- Thread starter NotBrendanRodgers honest
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Since everyone likes to talk about net spend so much I'll just point out we made a small profit that year. We bought those two but also sold Walcott, Giroud, Coquelin, Gabriel and Chamberlain.
They really shouldn't.
Why not? Spurs can easily sell Kane for 200m and sign multiple players with that money. Net spent + wages show a much better figure than gross spent.
Net spend does not tell much. The best measure of a club's financial power is their wage bill.
Of course it does. It is the amount of money you spend in order to improve your team without needing to sell players.
And you've failed to win anything. You think that's acceptable? You look at that group of players, some of the best in the division, and you can say that coming away with no success is OK? Going 4 years without a cup final shouldn't be seen as reasonable. Even Arsenal under Wenger, for all his many, many faults, was capable of winning 3 FA cups in the last 5 years? With a team weaker than yours. They prioritized top 4 and Europe too.
You got knocked out by Palace mate, with Wickham scoring his first goal in 2 years, for a team that struggles to score a goal at game in the league. There's always a reason why it's OK though.
Arsenal didn't sell Kane though, did they?
They sold a bunch of squad filler and signed two very good players who can genuinely improve their team. It's good business for sure, but it still means that a large amount of money has been invested in to the squad. I'm going to guess that Lacazette/Aubameyang are on higher wages than any on that list, as well.
Liverpool have a relatively low net spend, but still boast one of the most expensive squads in the league.
Indeed. This is the biggest stick I'd beat Poch with.
They have Watford next. At home. With a pretty good advantage over Arsenal and United for the 4th spot. He should've gone for it, yet bombed out with a whimper..
Erm, they sold RvP and Sanchez to us - their best players at the time... And especially in RvP's case at the height of their powers.
But at least they are secure in the knowledge that they get to hang on to easily their best player from Friday night – for the rest of the season – until he leaves on a free in the summer
Do I think it's acceptable? I don't know what that means truthfully, we don't have much choice but to accept it. We're not about to sack Pochettino, the man who has had us consistently in the top four, because he's failed to win a domestic trophy. It's disappointing to have not won a cup, but I think we've been very successful in other ways (remaining very consistent in the league) and that's enough to make up for the lack of silverware. Of course we all desire a trophy but most Spurs fans are capable of looking at the bigger picture. Arsenal won trophies yet still saw their squad decline and now face a massive struggle to get back in to Europe, they're a perfect example of how little winning a domestic cup can mean in terms of a club's long term project. As a fan a trophy would mean the world to me, but for the club a league or FA cup is not the priority, and understandably so.
Who said it was OK? It's shite. No Spurs fan is coming away happy after being knocked out by Palace. It's a negative on our season, but the thing is we're also still third in the league and through to the CL knockouts, so in our primary objectives are doing well, so we're not about to hit the panic button because we've been knocked out of the two domestic cups. Yes we were facing Palace, but with the spine of our team ripped out it's a more understandable loss, not acceptable but understandable. Our attack/midfield right now consists of a bunch of players who have never really played together and haven't formed any kind of partnerships so we look terribly disjointed and lacking in any cutting edge.
I was referring specifically to one transfer window where they made a net profit, but still quite clearly brought in more quality and spent more on wages.
And yeah, what is your point, that Arsenal have lost key players in the past? Sure they have and it's massively fecked them over, hence why they are facing another season without CL football.
I've usually argued the case for Pochettino having done an excellent job at Spurs, because, well, he has. And I continue to feel that way regardless of the cup exits. However I do feel that a few caveats deserve to be added.
If he has achieved the most he can achieve with Spurs given their financial restraints, then he should be ambitious and move. He's in danger of becoming another case like Wenger post 04 where the club is content to achieve the holy grail of top 4. While that can constitute a job very well done, to be a great manager you have win big trophies
Regarding the cup exits, for me they definitely do leave a blot on his managerial resume. As people have mentioned before, you can achieve the greatness of winning trophies even if you aren't the top dog in a competition. Sometimes conditions have to be conducive of course which some may argue happened in the Leicester year. But that aside the small fish sometimes needs the bigger team to struggle like Bayern and Klopp, which isn't happening now with City and Livepool flying. However it's fair to question the lack of even winning a cup till date. It doesn't, for me, change the fact that he's done a very good job or should be a contender for the United job. But it is a negative for sure.
If he has achieved the most he can achieve with Spurs given their financial restraints, then he should be ambitious and move. He's in danger of becoming another case like Wenger post 04 where the club is content to achieve the holy grail of top 4. While that can constitute a job very well done, to be a great manager you have win big trophies
Regarding the cup exits, for me they definitely do leave a blot on his managerial resume. As people have mentioned before, you can achieve the greatness of winning trophies even if you aren't the top dog in a competition. Sometimes conditions have to be conducive of course which some may argue happened in the Leicester year. But that aside the small fish sometimes needs the bigger team to struggle like Bayern and Klopp, which isn't happening now with City and Livepool flying. However it's fair to question the lack of even winning a cup till date. It doesn't, for me, change the fact that he's done a very good job or should be a contender for the United job. But it is a negative for sure.
When he joins us in the Summer??... You must know this weeks lottery numbers also?
My point is that you have to go for cups and titles when you have a team that can compete for them against the best teams in the league. If you lose Kane and Eriksen, regardless of the money thrown into(if Levy doesn't bank them to fund the stadium), you might not have a team good enough to mount something more than 4th place challenge. Momentum shifts quickly and you might not get better change of silverware anytime soon.
Arsenal, despite losing their top players, won 3 FA cups and they do count for something, especially they have been mocked around by everybody since the Invincibles..
I still struggle to see how Pochettino is treating the domestic cups differently from any other manager in the top 6. His record in the cups despite not winning any is also quite good.
Watford are 7th in the table. They've already beaten us once this season and took us to penalties at Wembley in the league cup, you think that's an easy game?
Bare in mind that they did this whilst we were at full strength, we're now going to face them without Sissoko, Alli, Kane or Son. It's going to be a tough game in which they'll be bang up for it and confident, just like Fulham they'll come out swinging knowing that we're very beatable right now. Teams are going to come at us with no fear and Watford are very capable of beating us with our current injury problems. I would be very surprised if it ended up being an easy win, right now we're likely to be grinding out every result. We only beat the 2nd worst team in the league thanks to a last gasp goal.
We have a decent advantage over the rest of the top 4, but one that could be whittled away so easily, look at how quickly United have caught up with Arsenal. A few bad results and we're right back in the fight, it's so important to stay consistent in the league right now and get through the next month of fixtures. The league is the priority for us as we're a club who needs CL football, other fans might not like this and would prefer we risk all for a domestic trophy, but it's the reality we face.
The team we put out in the cup wasn't that much weaker than the best team we are capable of putting out right now. Maybe add Winks and Eriksen, but with our injuries in midfield these two are absolutely vital going in to the next month of fixtures, and any kind of risk of injury simply was not worth it. People are expecting us not to rotate in a very busy period when we're down to the barebones, in what parallel universe is this remotely realistic?
Watford is not an easy game. They've shown when they're on their game they can beat anyone in the league.
They were smart to do so. Sell mediocre squad players to buy absolute quality. Unlike us who keep the likes of Jones, Rojo, Darmian, Fellaini and co. forever.
When it comes to transfers, only net transfer money is relevant. If you sell players to finance other players, that is a risk you're taking. When you only buy players, then you're improving the team without the risk of selling players to do so. Of course, I think that salary bill is probably even more important.
I can agree to some extent with what Poch said. In all honesty nowadays the hierarchy of a successful season probably looks like Winning CL > Winning PL> Winning EL > Top 4 > FA Cup
I suspect most players, especially non-British players would take CL qualification over an FA Cup final too.
The problem Spurs have is that many teams over the years around Europe have had stints in the CL only to fade into mediocrity domestically. Spurs will find it increasingly difficult to remain a top 4 side with so many larger clubs in the Premiership fighting for those places. Whilst now you may be happy taking CL qualification over a cup success you'll not look back in 20 years telling your kids about the day you snatched 4th place.
I suspect most players, especially non-British players would take CL qualification over an FA Cup final too.
The problem Spurs have is that many teams over the years around Europe have had stints in the CL only to fade into mediocrity domestically. Spurs will find it increasingly difficult to remain a top 4 side with so many larger clubs in the Premiership fighting for those places. Whilst now you may be happy taking CL qualification over a cup success you'll not look back in 20 years telling your kids about the day you snatched 4th place.
Not saying Watford is a walk in the park, but is a game which is still winnable and even if you lose points you have time to compensate. Lose to Palace and you are out of the most prestigious competition you have chance to win.
It was cowardly approach, especially considering the state Palace are in at the moment. Despite the injuries Spurs should win games like that and should be the favorites.
United and Arsenal are also fighting for the top 4 place. Did you see the squads they've put on? Especially Arsenal considering they too have a lot of injuries.
I agree with your point that he should have went for it, they're hardly spoilt for choice with trophies. That being said, Watford wouldn't be close to the teams I'd want to come up against when you're plagued with injuries.
Yeah I agree that probably Watford would take something from the game in Spurs current condition. The approach and priority should be the cup game to me. Lose that one and you are out. Watford is still a tough game, even tougher than Palace, but if you are picking your fights I wouldn't prioritize that game all things considered.
What's next, save your team against Dortmund, not to miss out on 4th place?
Don't think of yourself as Spurs, ignore all your historical hangups and look purely at the playing and coaching staff you have at your disposal. That team, that set of players, that manager should be doing more than celebrating getting into top 4 every season.
I'm sorry, this notion that finishing top four should be enough is exactly what i'm talking about. Again, these aren't mutually exclusive things. You can expect to finish top four AND win a trophy.
So? Do you think failure to win a trophy would have somehow halted Arsenals decline? Despite having the same goals as you, the same objectives, and a comparably worse team, they still managed to take home some silverware. The difference is Wenger wasn't lauded for it. Excuses excuses.
We have gone for cups and titles. 3 semi finals and 1 cup final since Pochettino took charge, you act like we've taken the piss out of the domestic cups when we've mostly put out strong sides with a little rotation, no more than other top sides in the league (who have deeper squads than us!) often do. We've just fallen short, pretty much always against clubs which are higher in the league than us. People keep referencing Arsenal as if they didn't go on a massive trophy drought and then eventually won it, we've had Pochettino for a few seasons and had a couple of semis and a final, we've come close but haven't quite cracked it.
Those FA cups have counted for basically nothing in terms of Arsenal's short term future. It's fantastic for the fans to win an fa cup or league trophy, but the club itself would have benefited far more from competing in the CL for a few seasons.
Finishing top 4 is enough for Spurs. They're now a top 4 club but what next. Winning the PL and CL and nothing else? And in this circumstances it's a tough job but Spurs fail even mounting a challenge. I'm not buying a squad depth or a weak squad argument.
Just finishing top 4 shouldn't be enough for a United and Poch looking down on competitions should be considered when looking at Poch.
Also how long will the likes of Alli, Eriksen and Kane want to stick around without winning anything. Cause sure as hell they won't want to put finishing top 4 with Spurs in their CV.
Just finishing top 4 shouldn't be enough for a United and Poch looking down on competitions should be considered when looking at Poch.
Also how long will the likes of Alli, Eriksen and Kane want to stick around without winning anything. Cause sure as hell they won't want to put finishing top 4 with Spurs in their CV.
Should it? Is it capable of launching a challenge on the CL or the title? Both City and Liverpool are very clearly better than we are, we're doing well to be sat in third. We have poor squad depth and challenging on every front proves very challenging.
Finishing top four shouldn't be enough? At Spurs? With our wage and transfer spending? We don't 'expect' to win a trophy because we're not Manchester United. We expect to have a go which we have done, we've reached multiple semi finals and a final. We've been beaten by better teams on the day. This idea that we should 'demand' a trophy is ludicrous, to what end? We should call for Pochettino to be sacked because we haven't won a league or FA cup? We're third and in the CL knockout rounds! The team is clearly TRYING to win trophies, but it's not as simple as that! We were the only club in the league not spend a penny in the summer despite clear deficiencies, Pochettino is working under difficult circumstances.
They took home some silverware, yet still dropped out of Europe and haven't got back to that level yet. I'd prefer our situation, thank you.
I want Ole in charge, ill say that now. But i think the hate Poch is getting is pretty harsh, lets not forget who is boss is, Levy is a smart money man, he's going to want top 4 over anything else to be in with a chance of champions league prize money rather than going for it in the FA cup.
Also his well timed statement is a solid deflection tactic off the back of a shite performance.
Also his well timed statement is a solid deflection tactic off the back of a shite performance.
Can you see why some people are calling Pochettino a bottler due to this? Whenever there is an expectation, he ultimately loses. Does that not worry you in the slightest?
We always had an expectation under Fergie but he was never in danger of losing his job, you can have those two things running parallel as long as top 4 is still on the cards. How long will you tolerate just a top 4 finish before you collectively become fed up with never winning anything? What if Arsenal start winning trophies again? Will that be the catalyst?
They'll definitely be certain milestones they need to hit this year in order to remain competitive next season. Top 4 and quarters of the CL might be enough but not enough for a shiny new player.
Pochettino doesn't look down upon domestic cups. His comments are to deflect attention/criticism away from being knocked out. I personally think he's made an error and should simply have kept his mouth shut.
We've consistently put out very strong sides in both the league and FA cup, pretty much our first choice teams played against Chelsea and Arsenal, and a strong side was out against Tranmere. We've reached two FA cup semi finals since Pochettino took charge and went out with our first choice XI on both occasions, to two strong teams. We lost a league cup final to Chelsea - again, we played our best side - and a league cup semi to Chelsea when we put out basically the best team that was possible.
Pochettino treats the domestic trophies the same as other managers in the league. He's made a few dodgy comments but this idea that he totally disregards it and puts out insulting sides is wrong. Yesterday he rested a couple of very important players, that's all.
Don't like his latest comments around 'cups building ego'. An attitude of top 4 being enough is fine for Spurs but not at United.
Let's just go for OGS, he has a proven winners mentality and the silver to show for it
Let's just go for OGS, he has a proven winners mentality and the silver to show for it
Not really. I don't think any of our cup exits (aside from Juventus in the CL) could be put down to bottling. And even then, that was up against one of Europe's elite sides who were later able to go 3-0 up away to Madrid. There's little expectation from the board in terms of trophies, I imagine the target each season is to get in to the champions league, no more or less.
As long as I think we're fighting for trophies and remaining consistent in the league, I'm happy. We're at a far higher level than we were not so long ago and I'm not about to complain about going out in a couple of domestic cup semi finals. I strongly believe the trophies will come eventually, and whilst this season it's very disappointing to have gone out of both domestic cups in a week, I can also understand why it happened.
Unless the board brings some genuine investment in to the side, I can't demand more from Pochettino and the team.
And if you had to choose between the two, especially given their injury crisis and not wanting to worsen it anymore than it already is, you'd field a wank team in the FA cup! And no wont be enough for a shiny new player but it will contribute towards it.
Well as you said he should shut up cause he's constantly belittling the FA cup and the league cup. As for finals and semifinals it seems Spurs are always a nearly team. In the long run as I said that will drive away the best players you have now.
But he's at Spurs where top 4 is enough. If you gave him a few extra hundred million to spend and told him you wanted him to go win every trophy, I suspect he'd be happy to upgrade his ambitions.
Then you're living in a fantasy world. In modern football the priority is the league and securing European football for the next season, even more so for us when we're financing a new stadium and badly need the funds. We're not spending as it is, what do you think would happen if we lost the money from CL football?
We are in the midst of an injury crisis and cannot afford to be dropping points, so the league will be the priority. It's our main objective for the season, always. We can't afford to throw everything at the FA cup right now.
Dortmund is a totally different story, of course we'll go full strength for a game in the CL. Regardless we didn't 'save our team' against Palace, we put out mostly the best team we could aside from 2-3 players who for all we know are fatigued and simply could not be risked. People acting like we threw a youth team on to the pitch for Palace when barring a couple of changes that's basically the best we can do right now.
He's deflecting, I think it does more harm than good but that's all he's doing. His actions in cup games speak differently.
We are a nearly team, but most teams are until they are able to crack it. I don't think that going out in the league or FA cup will drive away our best players, it will mostly be a desire to win the top trophies, playing for an elite club and earning more money that will lead to the likes of Alli, Eriksen, Kane etc leaving.