Well of course when they realize they probably won't win anything at Spurs they'll leave.
A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
- Thread starter NotBrendanRodgers honest
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Top players want to win the league or the champions league, the likes of the league cup and the FA cup are just bonuses.
I don't think Eriksen would suddenly sign a new contract had we won the league cup. He's still going to want to move to an elite club where he can challenge for the top honours and earn more money, that's just the reality of the game.
Did Arsenal's star players suddenly decide they wanted to stay when they won the FA cup? Of course not.
Eriksen is all but guaranteed to leave this summer regardless of what Spurs achieve this season. The only question is can we secure his signature?
No, you aren't going to win the league or the CL, but you're still prioritizing them. The FA cup and the League cup, two trophies you are capable of winning, you're disregarding.
"At Spurs." You're basing your expectations on past acheivement. Don't look at what the Spurs sides of the last 40/50 years have done, look at this Spurs and ask "what can this side do?" You have a top four team at your disposal, finishing top 4 with his set of players and this manager shouldn't be seen as an acheivement any more, it should be seen as a minimum requirement. If/when your team lose key players and you no longer have a team capable of finishing top four/winning a trophy, then adjust your ambition and expectation accordingly.
A decade ago Bournemouth were facing the very real possibility of dropping out of the league all together. If they get back to back relegations do you think their fans will say, "well, we are Bournemouth." As of right now they have a Premier League squad, and their expectations come from what they have at this time.
You didn't answer my question. If Arsenal hadn't won those FA cups do you think they would be in a better position now, regularly finishing top four? I'll say it again, winning a trophy and finishing top 4 aren't mutually exclusive things.
Why? Especially when you have a nice cushion at the moment. You were in a pretty good position. Only United, Chelsea and City are left from the top teams in the competition. Next year you might not get the same chance.
You rested your best player. Not even on the bench if things go wrong. Along with putting inexperienced youngsters with better options available - both in midfield and defence.
One the bolded part - does it really make a difference? If you aren't throwing everything at winning silverware right now when you have the team for it, why CL should matter that much next year if you miss out? When does going for the titles approach start after 10 years in top 4?
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His comments about the FA cup not being a real trophy (and then the team selection to back this up) did concern me as a potential United manager and did make me question whether he's cut out for a job where trophies are expected.
To be honest, I can't imagine that a lot of Spurs fans were too thrilled either given their proud FA Cup history - I doubt they are going to win the Title this season
To be honest, I can't imagine that a lot of Spurs fans were too thrilled either given their proud FA Cup history - I doubt they are going to win the Title this season
Because finishing high in the league and progressing in the CL is far more beneficial to a clubs financial position and prestige than winning a league or FA cup. The bold is untrue, we've gone out twice in the FA cup semi finals whilst putting out our strongest side, the vast majority of our domestic cup exits have been whilst going for it but simply falling short against better sides on the day.
This side is capable of finishing third and maybe winning a domestic cup if the run is good and we don't suffer too many injuries. This wasn't the case this season, we've come close in seasons past but you can never guarantee a trophy. We're not just getting top four as a minimum expectation, we're comfortably finishing third or 2nd most seasons which goes above our expectations.
We have a top four side, we're finishing top 2 or 3 and getting in to the CL knockouts, we're doing well. Bournemouth fans will be delighted with how things are going as well I'd imagine.
No, but then I'm perfectly aware that any side can win a domestic trophy if the situation is right. Winning a trophy requires plenty of luck, Arsenal went on a huge stretch without one and then 2 turned up. We are also capable of winning a domestic trophy and again I do believe we will crack it eventually, but we don't demand a trophy. You can demand a degree of consistency in the league, but all the cup takes is one bad performance or bad draw and you're out.
If Ole managed top 4 this season, but went out in the FA cup semis to City, would your fans be unhappy if he got appointed?
We have a nice cushion which could be lost with two bad performances. Look at our injury problems right now and tell me that we're not right to be worried about potentially being dragged in to a top four race?
I have no idea what the situation with Eriksen was. The medical staff may have informed Poch that he's fatigued and shouldn't be risked, and given our current situation he's our prize player and clearly can't be played if the likelihood is he could get injured.
CL matters because playing regularly in Europe is very important, both in terms of attracting and keeping players, more important than winning a league or FA cup. It's also vitally important to the financial state of the club, without European football we would likely have to sell assets.
Look, we rested a couple of players for a one off cup game while in an injury crisis. It backfired. People are acting like this means we constantly look down upon the cups when the fact we've reached multiple semis and a final in the domestic trophies would say otherwise. Under the circumstances I don't quite understand how people are surprised that we rested a couple of midfielders, they've played a lot of games recently and we have no backups in their positions.
I've definitely gone off him a bit. He's still an excellent coach but some of his comments are just bizarre - and the line-up he put out yesterday was set up to fail.
I think we're talking about the same thing.
Not winning anything leaves a mark on Poch's career and players will leave if they conclude they won't win either PL or a CL at Spurs.
He's a great player but do we need that kind of a player?
Not a slight on the past performances, I was commenting on last week, along with the other comments he has made in the press.
The line up looked to me that he wanted you to bomb out so you can concentrate on the league, comments afterwards kinda confirmed it.
CL matters of course, but it's not like you are bringing assets with CL football or less likely to lose assets (Eriksen) even with top 4 finish.
We don't with Pogba now occupying that advanced role. What we need is a RW and have done since Jose offloaded Mkhitaryan.
I've been saying the same thing, we have lost semifinals and finals fielding our strongest team, most recently last week against Chelsea. But it doesn't matter what facts you use, or what multiple people who actively watch Spurs say, the narrative is already decided.
Again, no need to get defensive. I was commenting on last week FA Cup exit, not your performances the years before.
Not really given Pogba plays a very similar role and arguably to a higher standard.
But Glaston.
Makes me wonder about him, whatever Jose didn't see in him, people on the board must have had the same opinion to sanction that sale. Or maybe they thought they were getting a massive upgrade in Sanchez?
Yeah, I definitely believe there's a top player somewhere within him, he just never had that consistency. I remember thinking what a footballer we have on our hands when he had a good game here or there. Then what did Jose do? alienate our best LW and play Mata on the right.
Fecking disaster.
You're clearly downplaying the cups though, so it isn't untrue. And yet again, you're working on the premise winning a cup and peforming well in the league are mutually exclusive things. You've outlined you're an established top 4 side, start acting like one.
Again, look at the much criticised Arsenal sides. Weaker squad with the same expectation, but was still able to win 3 cups in 5 years. A hugely underperforming United side with the same ambition as you won trophies under Jose. You've told another poster you're going to lose your best players whether you win trophies or not, if this is going to happen, why not actually win something you can put in your cabinet while you have quality at your disposal?
There we go. You're been the 2/3rd best team in the league for the last 3 seasons. This is because you've a manager and a squad that can be considered top 3/4 in the league. Why isn't that team capable of winning trophies and ending a 10 year drought? Why shouldn't they expect to?
If Ole did that 5 seasons in a row, then yes, I would expect more. I certainly wouldn't use the last 5/6 years as a reason as to why we can't win one. I would look at the squad we have and base my expectations on that, not the well use expression "we are United," that has no bearing on what the current team can acheive.
Ossie Ardilles should have a word with him!
Frankly, if Spurs fans are happy with what Poch has been saying that's up to them. He's their manager and if he's delivering what they want then fine.
So many teams have spoken about how winning a trophy made them feel like they could go onto more that I can't understand Pochettino's words. His attitude towards the cups has been very strange. I go back to dropping the first choice keeper for the League Cup semi, when the team already had major absences. They only needed a draw...
Who knows what it could do to Spurs' psyche if they finally got this 'Spursy' monkey off their back and won a trophy?
Hope he stays at Spurs.
Think he will now. Madrid might come in but I think they'd rather not spend £40m on a new manager they're going to sack before the season's out anyway. Don't think we'll bother an approach now considering how well Solskjaer has done and it's not like we absolutely have to appoint Pochettino this year. I think at least another year in the current situation would suit all parties.
I am not convinced about him for United. I see a lot of parallels with other managers who have done very well at smaller clubs but ultimately not won much (or anything).
Eriksen would have dreamed of coming to United, I agree.
Sanchez is a massive upgrade on Mkh, though, regardless of wether it worked for him here or not. He’s just much better at football.
Poch doing his absolute best, to not win a trophy.
In contrast to Spurs (using a 2nd string team), Solkjaer used a strong team of players (even though he did make some changes). And he then brought on Martial and Rashford, showing his intent to win the match.
Although I was thoroughly impressed with the way, Spurs played against us a few weeks back (they laid siege to our goal and refused to let us have the ball for more than a few seconds, at a time, in the second half), Poch's inability to win a trophy tells me that he is not yet ready to take the step up to a top club. Until he wins a trophy, Spurs is where he belongs.
In contrast to Spurs (using a 2nd string team), Solkjaer used a strong team of players (even though he did make some changes). And he then brought on Martial and Rashford, showing his intent to win the match.
Although I was thoroughly impressed with the way, Spurs played against us a few weeks back (they laid siege to our goal and refused to let us have the ball for more than a few seconds, at a time, in the second half), Poch's inability to win a trophy tells me that he is not yet ready to take the step up to a top club. Until he wins a trophy, Spurs is where he belongs.
Yeah that's fair, I was simply putting it in context of how he has been treating the cups. Listening to the comments Pochettino made before the match he said he will put out a team who can play with high energy. So I assume some of the rotation was because of the high amount of football players like Eriksen and Winks have played. Walker-Peters at left back was probably because Davies is injured and Rose seemed to be carrying a knock. Our attack was largely shaped due to injuries as well, as was our midfield with no Sissoko.
Yes he decided to rotate at this stage of the FA cup with our current injury situation and coming off a 2 legged semi final in the league cup. But this was only 2/3 players who would have played if this was a CL tie or something. This is also no different from what Klopp did this year when he went out. Chelsea rotated just as much as well, with Hazard not even on the bench. I know they played an easier team, but I think they probably would have rested him regardless. If we had a luckier draw or better depth Poch wouldn't have received such criticism.
This is what Pochettino did... It wasn't a 2nd string team, but the best team he could barring 2/3 players who needed to rest. He doesn't have the squad to field a strong team, especially not with our injuries. Even our best 11 had problems against Fulham recently...
It's almost like we have an injury crisis at the club and don't have Lukaku and Sanchez to bring in to the starting lineup.
I'm not downplaying the cups. I'd love a cup, as a club it's very important for the fans to have moments like that, it's why we're supporters. It's just I'm not going to slam the manager for failing to win a cup in a season where we've been hit by the shittiest of shit injury disasters, I don't know what more I can say than that? It's shit but we're in third and through to the CL knockouts so it's not a disaster or anywhere close to being worthy of a sacking. We pick ourselves up and move on. We've got to a few semis and a final during his time at the club, I don't think that's a sign of a team who don't make any attempt to win the cups.
Yet the stronger Arsenal side of years before failed to win one for 8 years, almost like winning a cup has a lot to do with draw and simple luck on the day? You can't ever guarantee a trophy, it's dependent on so many factors. Jose focused on the EL which held its own risks but paid off, well done on him. Because what more can we do? Do you think if we put all our efforts in to the FA cup and league cup (nobody in modern football is doing this. nobody) we'd suddenly be guaranteed to win it? We've given it a great go in the past and lost.
We've had 4 full seasons under Pochettino and reached a final and three semis, it's hardly terrible going in the cups. Of course it could be better and of course not winning a trophy is a mark against him, but the point is I don't think anybody could say we haven't tried. Three of our exits came to sides better than us at the time, the fourth to Chelsea when we were without Kane, Alli or Son. I'm not going to bitch and moan because of those exits, sorry.
It's not just about 'we're spurs' (yeah in isolation this would mean nothing) it's about having the sixth best revenue and a wage budget comparable more to mid-table sides than the top. We're overachieving based on this and as fans are experiencing more than we could have expected, so of course we're not going to spend our time moaning about a couple of semi final exits, what a miserable time it would be as a Spurs fan if this was the case. That doesn't mean we don't want cups, it just means we accept the realities of modern football and are grateful to be experiencing something we haven't really had in the past, that's called not being an entitled, spoiled fan who demands trophies regardless of context!
I feel like if Redcafe could decide United's transfer strategy the main objective would be to piss Glaston off
.Hazard was rested but they faced Wednesday at home(bottom in the Championship). I agree on the attack, but the rest he should've gone for it.
It was contrast to last year for example and he should prioritize a cup game in an tough away draw(considering injuries). That and the comments put me off, that's about it.
Wanyama, Lamela and Rose should all have played from the start.
Ill advised comments aside (trophies are for ego?!?!), this doesn't dent his reputation for me. If he doesn't have the squad depth to cope with 4 competitions (and he clearly doesn't) then he is right to prioritise the obvious ones. I suspect going into a new stadium next season his only objective from the board would have been a top 4 finish. They could very easily get sucked back into the pack - likely to in fact - so what does he do? He takes some temporary criticism for going out of the cups versus a much longer term bashing for losing a top 4 place. No brainer - and besides he couldn't have done much different given the injuries.
It does really highlight the quandary that Tottenham are in at the moment though. A manager receiving criticism for not having a huge squad, a club with a financial burden that should mean squad depth is going to be a problem for the foreseeable, and players who are adding nothing to their CV. It doesn't take a ridiculous series of events for the whole thing to collapse in on itself.
It does really highlight the quandary that Tottenham are in at the moment though. A manager receiving criticism for not having a huge squad, a club with a financial burden that should mean squad depth is going to be a problem for the foreseeable, and players who are adding nothing to their CV. It doesn't take a ridiculous series of events for the whole thing to collapse in on itself.
Wanyama clearly wasn't ready to start a full match, he hasn't played in ages and looked rusty as hell when he came on. Rose picked up a knock against Chelsea and we have no alternative with Davies in, risking him for the full 90 would have been madness.
Lamela maybe, but I think after Nkoudou got an assist vs Fulham (a game where Lamela played very poorly) it was decided he had earned a chance, and at this time we need as many players to compete for spots as possible.
It would be worthy, to be fair.I feel like if Redcafe could decide United's transfer strategy the main objective would be to piss Glaston off
I wouldn't be against that.I feel like if Redcafe could decide United's transfer strategy the main objective would be to piss Glaston off
We had a defensive injury crisis almost every season since last years of Fergie and passed to LVG and Mourinho and all of them had to do with it. These things happen in big clubs. It's normal.
Yeah that's totally the same as losing 3 of your top scorers at once as well as your best midfielder this season.
It's the equivalent of Salah, Mane, Firmino and Wijnaldum all being out at the same time. Teams can cope with defensive injuries if they have firepower, I'd swap having Kane, Alli and Son out anyday for Vert, Alderweireld and Trippier.
We're talking about our best and most influential player being missing, and pretty much the rest of our firepower being gone. It's not 'normal' and it isn't what happens at 'big clubs', it's an attacking crisis I can't remember another club having for a long time.
If you have lost your entire defense before you would have said the opposite really.
I had seen United defeating Arsenal under LVG with an almost entire team out and having to play Carrick in defense, something that also happened under SAF several times too who put Carrick and Fletcher in CBs at one point.
Injury crisis happen in any big club and we had our fair share of it. The role of the manager is to get on with it. You're acting like it's an easy ride with squad and injuries in other big clubs.