And have people watched Lloris recently? He is as likely to make an error in a big game as he is to make an outstanding save.
A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
- Thread starter NotBrendanRodgers honest
- Start date
Love the mental gymnastics to try and justify him here again. Every single time.
Put Marco Silva in charge of Spurs then and the narrative would be exactly the same as it is for Pochettino. At some point you're going to realise that it's the club that has allowed him to succeed in the way he has due to the way it's run. There's only us and Chelsea that currently employ this method of 'the manager must have full control of all departments of the club'. It's archaic in the world of modern football.
The point in bold is how cult's start and it's hard to debate with someone when you're denouncing all logic and reason.
Everything to this point has been pure speculation. It's pundits and ex players who constantly used his name. There's no evidence to suggest Pochettino has even been considered by United of Madrid.
Which successful manager hasn't been given the conditions by his club to succeed? You say "put x and y at Spurs and hey would achieve the same". That's your opinion but I think it's nonsese. How many of those players were playing at that level before Pochettino got there?
As for "cult", I don't care about football enough to see anyone in it as a cult figure. Levy has been at Tottenham 15 years and before Pochettino came, only got top four once. They are now consistently a top four team.
I have admitted the people claiming he hasn't won a trophy have genuine cause for concerns. But I have taken the view he his in competition with five clubs with significantly more resources, it's simply my view and I want to see him at a club where the gap is a bit more even before I come to the conclusion he can't win trophies.
On your last point, of course we can't be 100% sure both clubs aren't after him, no one can but I think we are kidding ourselves if we assume they aren't.
None because they were playing under 'Tactics' Tim Sherwood. Pochettino plays attacking football and returns zero trophies, something Silva, Santo or Howe also do at their respective clubs and could do at a team like Tottenham with more resources.
They are a consistently top 4 team because they have one of the best strikers in the league who returns 30+ goals a season. They would never sign a player of that calibre because Levy won't pay for it but they got lucky enough to find one in their reserves and he only got a chance thanks to Sherwood. Arsenal were consistently a top 4 team but still picked up the odd trophy on the way. Even a club like Wigan have won an FA cup, Leicester have won the league so it's not bat shit to think of a team with less resources actually winning something.
Whilst he hasn't been backed to the tune of say Klopp, Pep, Jose etc he still has spent money.
Let's not forget that Leicester won the league without spending vast sums of money before Spurs under Poch.
His transfer history is pretty shocking too, granted whilst he doesn't have the final say on transfers, I'm sure he does have a say.
Janssen, Llorente, Nkoudou, Aurier, Wimmer, Wanyama, Sissoko, Njie, Fazio, all signed for a total of around £100+m not really shown much of anything, you could even add Moura to that list too.
Let's not forget that Leicester won the league without spending vast sums of money before Spurs under Poch.
His transfer history is pretty shocking too, granted whilst he doesn't have the final say on transfers, I'm sure he does have a say.
Janssen, Llorente, Nkoudou, Aurier, Wimmer, Wanyama, Sissoko, Njie, Fazio, all signed for a total of around £100+m not really shown much of anything, you could even add Moura to that list too.
Mourinho.
Right. That's exactly my point. So why is it being brought up in relation to the Chelsea defeat?
As for the second bold part, no, it's not. It's his club's fault for adopting an innovative "let's sign literally nobody" policy in the summer when they already had a squad weaker than that of nearly all their top four rivals. That tends to mean you have to rely heavily on the players you do have.
They're in a transitional period with the new stadium development, so it's no surprise that money is tight. Plus the difference between 4th & 1st financially isn't really that big of a deal, so the cynic in me believes that Spurs went into this season with no intent to challenge for the title, but instead pursue a Wenger-esque top 4 trophy season to keep the revenue coming in.
I did say before they fell off a bit that they'd finish closer to 5th/6th than they would 1st, but people were adamant they were title contenders because they were above Man City for like, 1 game
To keep bashing Poch for not winning anything with Spurs is a little redundant now, it's obvious by now that you dont hire him for his guarantee of success, you hire him based on how his sides are setup/coached
Oh i personally dont have the problem with him not winning anything with spurs, nor that i deny he's a very good manager. But i just dont think he's a surefire guaranteed bet to win trophies even if he somehow managed city tomorrow.
He hasnt shown that last 10 percent of what managers of the past shown regardless of their own shortcomings (saf with aberdeen, jose with porto, simeone with atletico, lvg with ajax). The trophies isnt the be all in football but it is for me if you want to be classed among the greats.
You really cant say pochetinno is the best young manager without winning anything.
But it's really not is it? Would you be happy with one final in five years and a constant top 4 place at United? Pochettino might have less resources at Tottenham but so did Ranieri, Martinez, Wenger (in later years), Redknapp and Malky Mackay and they all won silverware.
There are serious red flags and people are willing to ignore them because there's a love affair with Pochettino in the media.
Pre Ole all people wanted was United to play football, have we really forgotten that in such a short space of time? Seems expectations in the last month have gone from just being satisfied with being a better coached side to now back to demanding success
Since when is just playing attacking football good enough for United? Worlds biggest club content to finish 4th every year because we play attacking football? We might as well be Arsenal.
Attacking football should go hand in hand with winning trophies but that involves periods of games where you have to sit back and defend also. Not all games can be won 4-0. Our squad is and has been good enough to challenge for the league every season since Fergie left.
I agree with the first part. Massively disagree with the second part though, it wasn't until Mourinho arrived that our midfield and attack started to resemble title challenging (in personal at least and even then lots would argue that) and our defence has never been good enough
Exactly who are your top five candidates to manage United after the summer?
Outside of Solskjaer and Pochettino I don't have any, maybe Santo or Silva, even Howe or Southgate if I were desperate but the distance between Solskjaer and Pochettino for me is a chasm. I don't believe Pochettino will achieve what many on here think he will achieve. I'd much rather we double down on Solskjaer and back him completely.
It isn't clear if we and Madrid really want him, but we can play the game. Real are hardly known for making astute managerial appointments. In the last years they have had Solari, Lopetegui and Benitez as managers. And all in this century they have had Juande Ramos, Berndt Schuster, Vanderlei Luxemburgo, Mariano Remon, Carlos Queiroz, Jose Antonio Camacho, Juan Ramon Lopez Caro among others. Needless to say, choosing the manager is not their strongest point.
Since Fergie, we have hardly done better a job than them in that aspect. 3 appointments in a row which were failures. The first one is particularly an interesting one. A manager who gave young players a chance. A manager who did considerably better than some managers who spent more. A manager who only if he had money to spend would have done so much better. A manager who if given the resources of a big club, would win many trophies. Most importantly, a manager who cannot be judged on the number of trophies he has won. Not sure I was talking for Moyes or Pochettino to be fair. Is there a big difference?
United always demands success.
I have no idea what you are saying. If you expect a team to win a cup, that means they've already lost? Is that what you are saying?
Utd will probably baulk at the compensation for Pochettino and stick with OGS, could be for best in every aspect because Pochettino you suspect has hit is ceiling at Spurs where with that team he should actually be going toe to toe with the top 2 and getting to cup finals!
I’m not all in on Pochettino by any means but surely this is bull?
How is Marco Silvas situation at Everton, who’s sitting nicely in 11th place by the way, any less desirable compared to Tottenham?
Everton has surely spent far more on transfers in recent years compared to Tottenham for example?
My previous point was that Tottenham have a 30+ goal a season striker in Kane and if Everton has something similar in their ranks the fortunes would be reversed. Both are attacking managers who play a brand of football that's pleasing on the eye but both have won nothing. Everton have bought poorly in previous seasons and need a defensive overhaul as well.
They did have a 30 goals a season striker, Lukaku and never got higher than 5th despite having similarly well regarded managers such as Martinez, Koeman and now Silva.
This is all conjecture from your behalf.
Do you not give Pochettino any credit for the fact they have a 30 goal a season striker?
Ok, then I got quite the wrong impression of you from some of the previous posts. I thought you viewed Pochettino as a terrible candidate, when you actually rate him very highly among the plethora of candidates out there.
If your view is that Pochettino is a very good managial candidate for us, but no guarantee of silverware, I agree. Actually, the closest thing to a guarantee of silverware to me would still be Mourinho and Guardiola. One is impossible and the other ... let’s not open that box again
I do think Pochettino has shown more quality than most around, and would be thrilled for him to be our next manager.
Ole has shown a fair bit, and is the only option apart from Giggs that would alow the current United set up to show if it’s an option in the long term. I have much more belief in Solskjær than in Giggs in that regard tbh, and he certainly is more proven as a managerial talent. So I’m very inclined to give him time and look for signs of development. I really don’t expect us to continue this fabulous spree regardless of who’s in charge the next months and even year.
There are still some sane people on here then. I was beginning to doubt.
Do you give the previous managers of Barcelona credit for having Messi? Pochettino has done well to get the best of out Kane, there's no doubting that but having a 30+ goal a season striker helps your cause immensely. They wouldn't be top 4 without him and we wouldn't be talking about Pochettino being the next United manager. That's how fine the margins are here.
Tottenham have a way better defence than Everton, and Lukaku never quite reached the heights of Kane.
Do you give Sir Alex credit for having Giggs, Scholes and Beckham come through together?
Kane doesn't just score 30 goals a season alone by default, it has something to do with how the team set up as well.
Not massively. He got the most out of them, but it's fortune to have players of such talent come through together, even if you try to shift the odds in your favour through investing in your academy etc.
Would have been good for us (UTD) if Poch had won that league cup. Would have meant that when he joins us in the summer he would have broken that hoodoo of not winning anything already and had his confidence up.
Lost to Ole. Lost to Sarri. All with the team he has spent 4 years 'building'. His chances look to be evaporating to me.
I'd prefer Ole anyway so hope his good form continues.
Spurs fans on here (edit: added in the word will) will probably want Poch to leave either now or in the near future, as he can't take them any further now in my opinion.
I'm out of posts but let's see how Poch still rates in 2 years at Spurs when he's still won nothing.
I'd prefer Ole anyway so hope his good form continues.
Spurs fans on here (edit: added in the word will) will probably want Poch to leave either now or in the near future, as he can't take them any further now in my opinion.
I'm out of posts but let's see how Poch still rates in 2 years at Spurs when he's still won nothing.
Yeah, Sir Alex near enough created the academy by himself so he has to take more credit than Poch.
I don't think that's the case at all
He nurtured three academy players to each become world class players, that deserves huge credit.
Having Llorente as his second striker is a weakness of the manager more so than a weakness of Spurs.
Kane & Lloirente plays football in similair ways but at different levels. A manager that obidient to a specific type of striker is something I am not too keen on. That shows that he always plays with Tactics A and his Tactics B are never seen.
It's the exact thing that happened with Jose. Lukaku over Rashford every day of the week & he could not adapt his game to a different style of a different type of player. Zlatan, Drogba, Higuain etc.
Consider Guardiola instead - used Messi as a striker, used Zlatan as a striker, used Lewandowski as a striker, used Gabriel jesus & Aguero as a striker - all different types of a player. Same goes with his choices at CM, used Fernandinho, De bryune, Silva, Xavi, iniesta, Busquets, lahm, costa, vidal etc m- many different types of players.
Look at Klopp - Lewandowski as his central striker in one team, firminho in another as a false 9.
I worry about Pochettino because I feel like he has a strong plan A that he will stick with and will not change to plan B.
Bascially, he has the potential to be a nicer, cooler version of Jose mourinho. This is possibly why some fans want him whilst some fans like me remain a bit on the back foot.
Kane & Lloirente plays football in similair ways but at different levels. A manager that obidient to a specific type of striker is something I am not too keen on. That shows that he always plays with Tactics A and his Tactics B are never seen.
It's the exact thing that happened with Jose. Lukaku over Rashford every day of the week & he could not adapt his game to a different style of a different type of player. Zlatan, Drogba, Higuain etc.
Consider Guardiola instead - used Messi as a striker, used Zlatan as a striker, used Lewandowski as a striker, used Gabriel jesus & Aguero as a striker - all different types of a player. Same goes with his choices at CM, used Fernandinho, De bryune, Silva, Xavi, iniesta, Busquets, lahm, costa, vidal etc m- many different types of players.
Look at Klopp - Lewandowski as his central striker in one team, firminho in another as a false 9.
I worry about Pochettino because I feel like he has a strong plan A that he will stick with and will not change to plan B.
Bascially, he has the potential to be a nicer, cooler version of Jose mourinho. This is possibly why some fans want him whilst some fans like me remain a bit on the back foot.
Getting the most out of them is the only job of a football manager. Their achievements are his.
I am far from Poch's biggest fan, but he should get credit on Kane and co (although he inherited a young Kane). He had a very good spine of the team, but players have become better under his watch, which is a sign of a good manager. His transfers have been hit and miss though, with most hits being low-key transfers while misses being the expensive transfers. This IMO is hardly a good sign, and a counter-argument to 'give money to Poch and he will win titles'. Hard to know if he will win trophies given more money, but the signs aren't good. I don't remember any manager who started winning trophies after 10+ years as a manager when he didn't win any. For whatever reasons, it just doesn't happen in football, so no reason to believe that Poch will be an exception.