A discussion about Paul Ince

Random Task said:
The slight came from Fergie, not the club itself or its fanbase where he was well regarded. He chose to celebrate his goal for Liverpool in front of the United fans, openly mocking them by holding a cupped hand to his ear.




Oh, I see.

I should probably take you at your word on that considering you're a Man Utd youth historian, whereas I am... not.
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I seem to recall he spoke about it. The most famous interview was him saying he didn't understand why players didn't celebrate against ex clubs. Iirc he was captain of Liverpool when he scored.

He also has had conversations where he feels sleighted by UTD fans for the lack of respect and stick he got every time he played against us.

Have tbh remember giving him stick myself back in the day.
 
Irwin99 said:
I was too young to appreciate him really but he was phenomenal when watching some old matches; so aggressive, technically fantastic, and such a powerful player. I remember reading how SAF thought that he completely gave up on his positional play after awhile though and started to leave gaps in the midfield constantly and how he let Steve Mcmanaman run riot in one defeat vs Liverpool. Also had a god awful FA cup final against Everton. Keane by contrast completely shutdown Mcmanaman in the FA cup final the following year.

I would love to have seen a battle between prime Ince and Keane vs Vieira and Petit...the clash of the titans :D Butt was a very good player but not quite at the same level and Scholes was a bit too lightweight at that time.
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Butt peaked quite early, but it always surprises me when I watch old games how good and positive his passing could be, always tried to get the ball early to the forwards feet, whipping the ball between the lines, and he could ping the ball to the wings, not as consistently as Beckham or Scholes but he did have the range and the willingness to use it. Don't think he quite became the player he could have been, there were huge expectations on him coming through, superb at under age levels.

The Ince celebration needs some context, treble season but everything is still up in the air, Utd take a 2 goal lead at Anfield, killing them then David Elleray gives a disgusting penalty on a perfectly clean Blomqvist tackle, sent off Irwin on a soft second yellow(that meant he was suspended for the fa cup final) then Ince gets the equalizer, could easily have been the moment an historic season collapsed and Ince celebrated like he knew it.
 
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Fortitude said:
I know joining Liverpool is the cardinal sin, but I am convinced he allowed that because of how Ferguson ruined his name, and effectively, his legacy as people parroting Big Time Charlie and him being this or that kind of cnut was something he would never have a voice even fair means to defend himself against.

I believe he became completely consumed by it and the way he was treated because of it. On a similar slant, it has taken Keane an absolute age to even get to the point where he is not in a red-eyed mist state when Fergie is mentioned to him, and to this day calls him ‘the manager’ or anything to avoid saying his name; even when he made his xi, he ‘jokingly’ put Ron Atkinson as the manager, obviously with the implication bringing much laughs with it.

For me, it’s a real shame such a parting shot was left. It didn’t have to happen, and without it, I doubt Ince ever goes to Liverpool because his name is then never sullied and made mud for some of our support.
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He’d already joined Liverpool prior to Ferguson calling him that, in fact it was a pre-match team talk for a game against Liverpool that it was from.

Ince was fantastic, not only for us but pretty much every team he played for, but while some may overlook joining Liverpool (most won’t), even those who do cannot overlook his goal celebrations and general demeanour towards United since he left.

Ability and contribution are up there with a lot of our other midfield greats, but he will never be regarded as a legend because of the above.
 
Roane said:
I seem to recall he spoke about it. The most famous interview was him saying he didn't understand why players didn't celebrate against ex clubs. Iirc he was captain of Liverpool when he scored.

He also has had conversations where he feels sleighted by UTD fans for the lack of respect and stick he got every time he played against us.

Have tbh remember giving him stick myself back in the day.
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Ince was before my time as a fan, admittedly, so I'm basing all this on what I've read online/heard about it.

lt might be worth mentioning that he has previous for shitting on football clubs. He paraded himself in a United shirt before he signed for us, which infuriated the West Ham fans by all accounts. Interesting that Lingard did something similar this season, posting pics of himself in a West Ham while still very much contracted to United. What goes around comes around I guess :p
 
He's was absolutely vital to our first league title in 26 years. Was absolutely immense that season, with his tough tackling and driving runs from midfield. Brilliant player.
 
Powerhouse of a player when he played for us. Played a big part in the 1994 double, but I can't forgive that celebration when he scored for Liverpool against us. It was all a long time ago but United fans - like Liverpool fans - have long memories. Slights and bad turns are passed down through the generations.
 
Random Task said:
The slight came from Fergie, not the club itself or its fanbase where he was well regarded. He chose to celebrate his goal for Liverpool in front of the United fans, openly mocking them by holding a cupped hand to his ear.
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The moment Ferguson said it, Ince was renounced by some fans; it isn't a flippant remark, it ruined Ince's reputation and he had every right to be furious about that. When someone as big and powerful as Fergie does that, you're effectively done for some of the fanbase. Ince went from hero to villain instantly for some, before he'd even got back and did his heel routine at Liverpool.

To this day you have posters here rolling out 'Big time Charlie' verbatim.
 
youngrell said:
He’d already joined Liverpool prior to Ferguson calling him that, in fact it was a pre-match team talk for a game against Liverpool that it was from.

Ince was fantastic, not only for us but pretty much every team he played for, but while some may overlook joining Liverpool (most won’t), even those who do cannot overlook his goal celebrations and general demeanour towards United since he left.

Ability and contribution are up there with a lot of our other midfield greats, but he will never be regarded as a legend because of the above.
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Of course, can understand why he has been washed, but it is a case of a player being bitter for being wronged and turned on giving it right back, as you'd expect from Ince.

There can't be a single person who could say he gave everything he had whilst he was here - we got the equal and opposite reaction from a man who felt he'd been wronged.

But yes, he went to a place of no return, and I can understand the animosity towards him because of that.
 
He played before my time so my opinion of him hinges a lot on what a dick head he is most of the time when he speaks about United.

One player that I've seen and had certain opinions of is Tevez. You don't see many good posts about him even though he was very important to one of the clubs most successful periods; nor should you (see good posts about him).

Players that did amazing for us were celebrated at the time. If some decide to make certain moves that are contrary to the clubs best interest or the fans, it's normal they are forgotten in favor of the ones that did not.
 
I think it was Tony Adams who said in a podcast that a team isn't a team until you have seven players who would fight the opposition in the tunnel. That 93/94 Double winning side side had Schmeichel, Bruce, Keane, Hughes, Cantona; Robson and McClair on the bench and I doubt Irwin, Parker or Pallister would have backed down. Paul Ince certainly wouldn't.

He was a warrior in a squad of warriors and that's the team SAF built to win the league.

After 94/95, SAF could see the transition with Scholes partnering Keane that needed to happen and he made it so.

Ince was a fine player for us and I think most United fans would have forgiven the guv'nor and big time Charlie stuff; but, like many, I can't get past that game v Liverpool where Ellery absolutely stiffed us and Ince celebrating like a man demented after scoring that tap in.
 
jackal&hyde said:
He played before my time so my opinion of him hinges a lot on what a dick head he is most of the time when he speaks about United.

One player that I've seen and had certain opinions of is Tevez. You don't see many good posts about him even though he was very important to one of the clubs most successful periods; nor should you (see good posts about him).

Players that did amazing for us were celebrated at the time. If some decide to make certain moves that are contrary to the clubs best interest or the fans, it's normal they are forgotten in favor of the ones that did not.
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Exactly. There are fans who never accepted Berbatov because SAF chose him over Tevez.
These are professional players and should be allowed to celebrate.
It's as they say. I ride for the brand and shoot for it.
 
Fortitude said:
The moment Ferguson said it, Ince was renounced by some fans; it isn't a flippant remark, it ruined Ince's reputation and he had every right to be furious about that. When someone as big and powerful as Fergie does that, you're effectively done for some of the fanbase. Ince went from hero to villain instantly for some, before he'd even got back and did his heel routine at Liverpool.

To this day you have posters here rolling out 'Big time Charlie' verbatim.
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The big time Charlie business did Ince's reputation no favours, for sure, but the real issue for the United fans was him joining Liverpool, and if that wasn't bad enough, wildly celebrating when scoring for them against us. When I think of Incey, I think of the celebration, not Fergie's slight.

Heinze is another example of what not to do if you value your reputation amongst the United fans. The guy was loved by all during his time as a United player, so much that we gave him a ringing rendition of "Ar-gen-tina" every single game without fail, often at great length too. He was my personal favourite United player at the time as he was for many United fans.

Then he tried and failed to sign for Liverpool. Now, you'll struggle to find a single United fan who has a kind word to say about him.
 
Random Task said:
The slight came from Fergie, not the club itself or its fanbase where he was well regarded. He chose to celebrate his goal for Liverpool in front of the United fans, openly mocking them by holding a cupped hand to his ear.




Oh, I see.

I should probably take you at your word on that considering you're a Man Utd youth historian, whereas I am... not.
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No probs. If you look on any website you can see he was born in January 1961 and he came to us in the Summer of 1982. So he was 21 years old. He was actually in Newcastle United's youth system.
 
Al-T said:
I think it was Tony Adams who said in a podcast that a team isn't a team until you have seven players who would fight the opposition in the tunnel. That 93/94 Double winning side side had Schmeichel, Bruce, Keane, Hughes, Cantona; Robson and McClair on the bench and I doubt Irwin, Parker or Pallister would have backed down. Paul Ince certainly wouldn't.

He was a warrior in a squad of warriors and that's the team SAF built to win the league.

After 94/95, SAF could see the transition with Scholes partnering Keane that needed to happen and he made it so.

Ince was a fine player for us and I think most United fans would have forgiven the guv'nor and big time Charlie stuff; but, like many, I can't get past that game v Liverpool where Ellery absolutely stiffed us and Ince celebrating like a man demented after scoring that tap in.
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Except it was Butt or Beckham partnering Keane in the main, with Scholes not really nailing down a midfield spot until Keane did his ACL. Scholes developed a little slower than the others, wasn't really a mainstay of the midfield until he was 23/24, in 97/98.
 
An important part of the first great United side that Fergie built and there for the 1990 cup win, the ECWC win over Barcelona in 91, the holy grail in 93 and our first double in 94. Not as good as Robson, Keane or Scholes but much better than any other midfielder of the last 30 years other than Carrick. At the time, I was mystified why Fergie sold him in his prime, but, having had the pleasure in the last 6 years of seeing what happens when egos run out of control in the dressing room, the great man was probably right as usual.
 
Paul Ince was a great player for us. A lot of people have forgotten that. I think it was the manner he was discarded with by Fergie (with plenty of anecdotes saying he had become a big-time Charlie) and the fact that he signed for Liverpool later in his career.

He properly embodied what the Premier League, and that Manchester United team back then, was all about.

Shows you what a great manager Fergie was though. He got rid of Ince, Hughes and Kanchelskis and his team's domination never missed a beat. Meanwhile, the current United side are still struggling to replace Michael Carrick.
 
I really wish I could get a bunch of the very early 90s tapes and watch that whole team play for a weekend, because I was too young to know Ince as anything other than an utter prick. Even without the Liverpool thing, he seems to have this way of looking down his nose at people while he's talking.

I dunno, he just really rubs me the wrong way and it'd be nice to properly understand the player that he was for us. I'm too young to have watched Cantona live either, but it's not like you have to dig too deep to find the footage that marks him out as unreal.
 
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Tremendous player for us, but of a bit of a prick who gets more attention on social media than he deserves.
 
Fortitude said:
The moment Ferguson said it, Ince was renounced by some fans; it isn't a flippant remark, it ruined Ince's reputation and he had every right to be furious about that. When someone as big and powerful as Fergie does that, you're effectively done for some of the fanbase. Ince went from hero to villain instantly for some, before he'd even got back and did his heel routine at Liverpool.

To this day you have posters here rolling out 'Big time Charlie' verbatim.
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Ince has only himself to blame for it, not Fergie.
Fergie has not always said the nicest stuff about Keane or Becks or Ruud, etc. either and Keane regularly takes digs at Fergie and United including his ridiculous reaction and defending of Nani’s red card against RM, still United fans love all three players.

Ince is not disliked for what Fergie said but mainly for joining Liverpool and especially that celebration.
Football is emotional. Everyone is admitting he was a great player. But he has no / very little connection left with the fans for obvious reasons.
 
Top talent we signed for a then big fee in 1989 who eventually developed into a world class midfielder.
It was around 1992 he became a more consistent performer and was a key figure in our championship winning team.

When he left in 1995 he was the best centre midfielder in the Premiership.

In his prime as good as the Vieiras, Gerrard and Lampards imo.

Good to see him get on really well with Sir Alex these days, hanging out, playing pool at each others houses etc.
I remember Ince for a time was very bitter with the 'big time Charlie' comment from Fergies 1998 documentary, especially when the fans latched onto it!
 
James Peril said:
He made his debut like 33 years ago, fans have gotten children who since then got children themselves. He played in an era when the level in the league was way lower and unprofessional compared to this day and age. Dare I say Paul Ince is completely and utterly irrelevant in 2022, both as a former player and pundit/manager/person? He was hardly a Charlton, Robson or Cantona in our grand history, he’s far down the list of important players if we summarize the last 40 years. He talked the club down, played for Liverpool and played the racist-card without grounds since he was here, doesn’t even deserve free entry to Old Trafford in my book.
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OL29 said:
Could you explain this?
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@James Peril Still wondering what you meant by ‘Ince playing the racist card without grounds’?

People throw that term around so casually without realising how damaging it is, but the moment someone mentions possible racism on here they have 10 posters jumping on them, accusing them of playing the race card. So it’d be good if you explained what you meant.
 
Ince was very good, the then 23 year old Roy Keane being an understudy to him. But Ince neither shined brightly in either European club competition or in Euro 96. The fondest memory I have of him is from 1992, when we lost the old First Division league to Leeds. He and Robson volunteered to play against Liverpool at Anfield despite not being fit enough. We lost that game 0-2, but Ince battled against the scouse till the final whistle.
 
Keane vouched for him tonight. Also well received at OT. 'Guv'nor' mantle also explained away and it having nothing to do with football?
 
Considering all the assholes we’ve had to tolerate in recent years, it’s understandable that Ince’s villain status has died down. He was quality for us and owed no loyalty after Fergie booted him out.
 
I wonder if he is in Ten Hag's office now begging for a player or two on loan
 
united_99 said:
Ince has only himself to blame for it, not Fergie.
Fergie has not always said the nicest stuff about Keane or Becks or Ruud, etc. either and Keane regularly takes digs at Fergie and United including his ridiculous reaction and defending of Nani’s red card against RM, still United fans love all three players.

Ince is not disliked for what Fergie said but mainly for joining Liverpool and especially that celebration.
Football is emotional. Everyone is admitting he was a great player. But he has no / very little connection left with the fans for obvious reasons.
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Ince was a very good player for us and was instrumental in the early 90s as we became a real force. SAF believed Ince was getting a bit above himself and, as was the Fergie way, there was only ever one Boss at United so Ince went. Joining Liverpool didnt win Ince any friends and his juvenile celebration that day lost him many, many more.
 
redmanx said:
Ince was a very good player for us and was instrumental in the early 90s as we became a real force. SAF believed Ince was getting a bit above himself and, as was the Fergie way, there was only ever one Boss at United so Ince went. Joining Liverpool didnt win Ince any friends and his juvenile celebration that day lost him many, many more.
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Then saying in the interview he hoped his goal would stop them winning the title
 
He was understandably bitter, but he ruined his legacy for obvious reasons. It’s all water under the bridge now, hopefully he’ll get a bit more respect for what he did while he was here.
 
Went to school with my dad in London. Along with his cousin Nigel Benn. My dad told me a story about how close he was to Ince at school: they were good friends. One day, my dad got headbutted by an English guy for refusing to give him his lunch money. These guys followed my dad out of school and started chasing him. My dad was a fast runner and he used to run cross country. Lead these bullies on a wild chase through Valentines park, in Ilford only to stop half way through, turn around to face the bullies and out jumped Ince, Nigel Benn and a bunch of brothers with poles and sticks. Dad waved them off and walked the rest of the way home, leaving the brothers to deal with the bullies. No one picked on my dad after that.

Edit: Dad just mentioned to me that Lennox Lewis was one of the brothers that jumped out of the trees in the park that day.
 
Dont get the hate really. Tevez's done much worse imo and is still revered here.
 
The mad celebration and what he said did it for me. He can forever embrace the Liverpool fans.

I'm old enough to remember the late 80s and early 90s, he was a rock of a player, perhaps a midfield version of Mane in terms how tough he was with his small body frame, willingness and non stop action but the 1995 loss was tough blow. Fergie saw a new way and from 96-99 you can't fault it. I still remember the days when Hughes Ince and Kanchelskis went, I loved these players.
 
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