He was being sarcastic, pointing out how a better keeper alone doesn't make up for a shoddy defence.
70s Fantasy Draft Final - Cling Bak v antohan
- Thread starter Brwned
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He was being sarcastic, pointing out how a better keeper alone doesn't make up for a shoddy defence.
since you think that his fullbacks are such a glaring weakness, then why didn't you exploit it? You had the perfect weapon available in Rivaldo and you discarded it
Clearly a monumental feckup as far as nice teamsheets go. I still believe I will create a lot more and my defenders are good enough to deal with his occasional threat, while his aren't up to the job at hand in all fairness.
Antohan, the only way I can see you getting back into this is moving Zanetti into a more forward role and trying to get some width in your side.
TBH, this is the first game where so many people have gone in and voted so quickly. By the time I got on I was doing badly and by the time the tactics got updated it is 16-5.
Personally, I think it is a mixture of people punishing the non-selection of Rivaldo and liking the look of Cling's width, which I completely understand. In fact, AldoRaine PMd me after the SF saying I would sure win it and I told him I wouldn't count my chicken as I hadn't yet tested how people reacted to obvious width vs. apparent lack of it. The answer is clear now.
I still do believe my starting team (more so) and the current one would win this game in real life.
People are underestimating the role of fullbacks even when not playing with line-hugging wingers. Look at yesterday:
- Rooney scores from a set piece, fullback marking him at fault.
- Young scores from a cross arriving on the other post unmarked, both fullbacks at fault. Forlán could be arriving on that post and Luis Enrique was more than capable to receive the ball from a throw in and cross it. Christ, I could probably put that cross in, it wasn't particularly special, it just capitalised on a fullback falling asleep on the job.
- Young scores a scorcher from distance, the whole backline is irrelevant there. Forlán did that regularly.
I have really big game players there, a solid back four, more creativity in midfield and some serious versatile firepower at the end of it. He just has excellent mazy runners but no credible Plan B.
In my eyes the situation at the back is under control. They are good players but I don't think they get enough of the ball, I completely dominate these guys aerially so I just have to keep tidy and not give them space to receive unaccounted for. I trust that midfield to create more than enough for the frontmen to capitalise on a weak back four.
If I gave Zanetti a more advanced role I would be in real trouble though. I will have him join attacks so long as he takes turns with Candela and always keep three at the back, but the priority is to remain disciplined.
It's just a shame it all ran up so quickly into what looks like an insurmountable lead but it is completely overdone and I won't panic as a result. In any case, newcomers will not vote based on the flow of the game and understand me going gung ho, they will just assess the two teamsheets and have their say.
If I was to handpick a team for this I would have Scholes, Zidane and Nesta in a heartbeat, would also probably have Zanetti in there too. That's 4 players who in their prime were the best so that's why Antohan got my vote.
Can't believe you didn't pick Rivaldo!
Can't believe you didn't pick Rivaldo!
I know mate...
The scoreline looks horrendous, but I feel that was a load of people voting early on and somewhat shocked about that - complete misreading of how this works on my part.
But in Davids, Scholes, Zidane, Luis Enrique and Forlán I have big game players who show up when the going gets tough. All of them have the winner mentality and character to take a game by the scruff of the neck and steal victory from the jaws of defeat.
Cling only has Mendieta. Go back to Zidane-less France, at the peak of their game, how did Vieira and Henry concoct to have the World Champions last in the group stage with Zidane out injured? Riquelme? Bloody hell, last man I would want to rely on to make a comeback...
Christ, a 2-hour flash crash followed by no one showing up at all
I think the mistake you have made is putting Forlan in the same bracket as Zidane, Scholes and Enrique
Alot on here will be remembering him for his spell at United and will be baffled as to why Rivaldo didn't come in instead.
Your loyalty has cost you I feel.
Alot on here will be remembering him for his spell at United and will be baffled as to why Rivaldo didn't come in instead.
Your loyalty has cost you I feel.
You could have gone like this mate:
With Luis Enrique and Forlan to come off the bench...
With Luis Enrique and Forlan to come off the bench...
He wasn't putting Forlan in the same bracket though, he obviously knows Forlan isn't in that bracket in the same way Simeone isn't in the Davids, Scholes, Enrique bracket, so he had a choice between the two. I said at the time Simeone wasn't costing him any votes though, and for the people who vote on names Rivaldo was always going to make more of an impact than Davids. Partially because Forlan's underrated I feel. You can either judge Forlan on his 2010 World Cup form when he was the best player in the tournament or on his 08/09 form when he carried Atletico into 4th place with 32 goals in 32 league starts (and 10 assists).
Not in the same bracket and Rivaldo can do everything he can do, but better. But he is a double European Golden Shoe and WC Best Player and joint top scorer. Not exactly a forward you could easily dismiss.
As stated earlier, it was never a case of overrating Forlán there (although I do rate him) but more a case of wanting to lock up the midfield and Simeone, Luis Enrique and Seedorf could be sniffed at by some for various reasons, not Davids.
For what it's worth, I was still keen on going with Rivaldo yesterday morning. I posted I would wait to see if any feedback came and see what mood I was in after the game...
And the game sure influenced me:
- Both teams showed how important control and creativity in midfield is. We lacked control, and it showed. We were ran over by a more energetic rival, but said rival had nothing but energy there, no real control and little creativity made their greater possession result in nothing.
- We had a solid and disciplined defence and it made all the difference, Spurs' fullbacks (Walker in particular) lost them the game.
- Since we have a sturdy defence we can afford to soak up and bet on hitting on the counter. In fairness, the former won us the game more than the latter. Conversely, Cling has the right attackers for a counter but can't soak up, so there is a complete mismatch there.
I wouldn't have benched Luis Enrique, not in a million years. Another one that costs me probably, but what a player he was... If this were a Barca forum I would have this wrapped up long ago, despite their obvious appreciation for Cling's front three.
Clearly the case. If you look at it on a stats basis my front three overall have a better peak scoring record.
I'm not in any way claiming Vieri is better than Ronaldo or anything of the sort, but it is a hell of a load of firepower packed in that front three and different ways of scoring, which is no minor detail.
Cling has the right forwards for a counter, but can't hurt me in many more ways than with mazy runs (against superb defenders), and he can't soak up nor create as much.
A solid platform with more grit, more character, more control and more creativity should count for something, but apparently the other three score with not much backing them up.
Where are those sympathy votes when you need them?
Hard to judge any player when he's played in a different position than what he was doing in his peak. For Atletico and Villarreal he was a striker. Not a 2nd striker/winger. Team balance matters a lot in voters decisions and playing players in their best position will count. There's the lack of width and speed to break up Cling's formation. He's got more going for him in those two departments.
With the current formation I'd like it even more if Forlán would just be put up top and Enrique out wide. Luis hasn't been used like he was during his peak as well. Given his stamina and strength on the right he'd be ideal to pair up with Zanetti as the attacking and defending outlet out there.
He is playing in an attacking three in a more withdrawn role in his favoured side of the box. He was never as effective as a solo out and out striker nor was he ever a fox in the box, he is exactly where he feels most comfortable playing alongside a more classic No.9.
No pleasing some people. I spent the entire tournament with Luis Enrique in that right midfield role and stressing he could provide the wide option in attack but kept being told I had no width. People kept mentioning how I could potentially "play Luis Enrique on the right wing". Now that he is playing further up as a right centreforward (who is bound to probe for options both centrally, wide and between the left back and CB) he suddenly is better at providing width as a right central midfielder.
Amazing how inconsistent people can be.
If Forlán is playing along side Vieiri than Enrique surely is as well? You haven't been playing him wide all tournament. You haven't been playing anyone wide all tournament. So don't be telling me that I'm consistent. My main criticism of your team has always been lack of width. I think that's consistency anto.
Precisely, he is providing a clear wide option and you now tell me he would give more width in midfield.
I guess you are taking a static view of the front three there whereby "Forlán is not playing as a striker" and "Luis Enrique is not providing width". Christ, I've never seen a such a static perception of a front three. They will move across the frontline at will, as would any self-respecting forward.
How many times has Rooney crossed a ball for us? Does that make him a winger? Hell no, he is a forward and, first and foremost, he looks to drag defences around, craves and creates space. That will mean playing centrally or drifting wide as and when over the course of the game. The same applies to Forlán and Luis Enrique here.
One thing sure is true about Rivaldo, it's not that much the team improvement but he would prompt more people to vote at all, which is not an insignificant consideration.
Same shared perception of Raul, Del Piero and Ruud earlier in the tournament. No matter what ideas you have personally about your team, if the general consensus of the forum is affected by one or two comments you're screwed
Where are those sympathy votes when you need them?
If it gets to that stage mate, I'll vote for you.
How long has gone? Are just before half time?
I don't know about this example specifically, but it depends which player care to remember.
If you remember Ruud that joined us, you get a player who dropped deep, could work the channels and hold the ball up and, obviously finish as good as anyone ever. If you remember the one that left us, you may remember a guy who stood in one position for long periods waiting for the ball to drop to him.
Same with Del Piero in terms of movement. 90's Del Piero could play in midfield if needed and create from deep or play up top. In his latter years it obviously isn't as possible.
Whereas, pick Giggs down the left wing and people will probably choose to remember a player with blistering pace that tore everyone apart (...again). Reputation can be hard to judge.
For Atletico in that season he was a second striker, the creative hub of that team with Aguero playing ahead of him and a sub-standard midfield behind him. For Uruguay in the World Cup he played the exact same role but slightly wider, it's quite clearly shown with average position:
Uruguay - Forlan's #10, on the same line as Cavani who everyone agreed he played a wide right role. It was a three-pronged attack much like this one, albeit Forlan wasn't quite as wide as he's portrayed in antohan's image but nor would he be if antohan's team was out on the pitch, it's just the starting position.
Atletico - Forlan's #7, closer to the midfield than Aguero.
He was highly involved in the build-up for both sides, much in the way Rooney is for us. He wasn't just a striker.
If it gets to that stage mate, I'll vote for you.
How long has gone? Are just before half time?
Half time, but it looks like that ten vote lead ran up in what was tecnically the first 5-10 minutes of the game is not going to go away.
It is players at their peak so you would never take the static, rather lazy, "give me the ball" versions of Del Piero and Ruud.
For Atletico in that season he was a second striker, the creative hub of that team with Aguero playing ahead of him and a sub-standard midfield behind him. For Uruguay in the World Cup he played the exact same role but slightly wider, it's quite clearly shown with average position:
Atletico - Forlan's #7, closer to the midfield than Aguero.
He was highly involved in the build-up for both sides, much in the way Rooney is for us. He wasn't just a striker.
The goal in that game against South Africa shows his positioning clearly:
Those vuvuzelas were annoying...I know the rules. But you cannot force people to think a certain way. In a certain combination they might be forced to see something less favourable.
Half time, but it looks like that ten vote lead ran up in what was tecnically the first 5-10 minutes of the game is not going to go away.
I think people tend not to vote when the difference is already big as they think it makes no difference - the games with the most votes are the ones that are really close.
Which is really annoying as really it all went down to the first two hours or so, people were very quick pulling the trigger there. I always at the very least waited to hear from the managers.
Fact is, Rivaldo debacle aside, I still cannot for the life of me see Cling's team winning that game more than 1/10 times:
- My defence is miles better as a unit
- My forwards pack as much punch as his at their peak (2.5/game vs. 2.3 for him actually)
- My forwards can obtain a goal in more ways (most headed goals in Serie A, double Golden Shoe known for long range screamers, any three of them capable of finishing one on one as well)
- The service to these forwards is FAR superior
- I have more character, more big game players, while some of his were flat track bullies who disappeared in the big occasion
- Zidane is pulling the strings
Same 11 point difference lingering since the beginning
6 or 7 votes should do to start making it interesting
6 or 7 votes should do to start making it interesting
What? When did I say that? Are you telling me both of them are playing the same position yet one of them is a striker and the other is a winger?
How many times does Rooney cross the ball? Not a lot. Don't think I've seen a single cross from him in the last 5 games.
For Atletico in that season he was a second striker, the creative hub of that team with Aguero playing ahead of him and a sub-standard midfield behind him. For Uruguay in the World Cup he played the exact same role but slightly wider, it's quite clearly shown with average position:
Uruguay - Forlan's #10, on the same line as Cavani who everyone agreed he played a wide right role. It was a three-pronged attack much like this one, albeit Forlan wasn't quite as wide as he's portrayed in antohan's image but nor would he be if antohan's team was out on the pitch, it's just the starting position.
Atletico - Forlan's #7, closer to the midfield than Aguero.
He was highly involved in the build-up for both sides, much in the way Rooney is for us. He wasn't just a striker.
Ok, why are there 14 numbers on the pitch?
Away game to Real Madrid. He's playing deeper? Really? Shocking!
Last season he managed 8 goals in the league. I don't think you're talking about that season. But looking at a random game he was paired up in a 4-4-2, next to Aguero, not behind him, his average position was in the middle and heat map showed him all over. Same as Aguero. That was a 3-0 game in which he scored 2 goals and Aguero 1.
11 + 3 subs = 14.....I'd assume -_-
I don't really thinks its just that, or that Rood's point is even correct. If I come in "late", I'll read comments but won't even look at the vote scores, it doesn't sway me, I'll still vote accordingly.
We've had 28 votes and 30 seems to be about the average (albeit for shorter matches) so it's not just stopped after the first two hours. We've had plenty since and more will still come.
Subs.
I wasn't talking about last season, no. 08/09 was what I said. Anyone who saw them that season could tell you he played the same role Rooney's playing for us now, and it seems fairly clear Uruguay played a three-man attack in the World Cup with Forlan dropping deep and creating.
Ahh. There lies the difference somewhat. For Anto he's the only one going out left. No Reyes or some other winger like Atletico always use to help him. Uruguay's full backs as well. The first thing they did when their team got the ball was to sprint forward. Anto specifically said that his back 4 were all conservative and he hasn't changed that either.
No point for Forlán in this formation do drop deeper. Zidane and Scholes and Davids are there.
No point for Forlán in this formation do drop deeper. Zidane and Scholes and Davids are there.
Which shows a default position is an indicator, but not static. Vieri is in the box and will hardly drift anywhere else, it is Forlán and Luis Enrique, as forwards, who will come deep, work channels, drift wide or just be in the bloody box subject to what the situation requires.
They are both very adaptable and intelligent footballers, with an eye for breakthrough opportunities. It is rather simplistic and wrong to say they are either on the wing or behind the striker or alongside him, at any one time it will be one of those but over the course of the game the opportunities to exploit will take them to different parts of the frontline.
The whole ten vote lead emerged in those two hours though. It's been pretty even since. Hopefully it will keep moving
I'm not going away any time soon mate, and I know you wouldn't want it any other way
It is simplistic yes but that's what the game is. We're usually comparing the teams man-to-man in a team sport. There's only so much you can try and judge teams on because they've all been pretty even the whole tournament. Those who have made this far have set their team up nicely and/or explained their squad the best and sometimes even have the slight edge because of the players selection as well.
There's no way viewers have not made the voting personal. We know this, hence the lack of players like Fowler. I got stick for picking Heinze on the left over Neville from several people than vice versa when I changed it up.
Then of course there's the everlasting argument of how good a player is which is the biggest issue here. People rate players differently. Just look at the top ten thread. There was one dude who put RvP at nr. 2 ahead of Ronaldo.
There's no way viewers have not made the voting personal. We know this, hence the lack of players like Fowler. I got stick for picking Heinze on the left over Neville from several people than vice versa when I changed it up.
Then of course there's the everlasting argument of how good a player is which is the biggest issue here. People rate players differently. Just look at the top ten thread. There was one dude who put RvP at nr. 2 ahead of Ronaldo.
Am I right in saying that we're missing half the votes from participating managers?