70s Fantasy Draft Final - Cling Bak v antohan

[Brwned]

Team Cling Bak

It's a solid lineup, geared for 4-3-3 with steel in midfield and players who can do damage out wide.

Henry and Overmars will go either side of their full-back, cutting in when they need to and supporting Ronaldo, but beating their man on the outside too. It's a pacey and powerful front three.

Riquelme will be tightly marked and as such, will be perfectly primed to stop build-up play in the opponents midfield. His damage is done the other way though, where he will be expected to create and dictate like he did in Germany 2006.

Capdevila can attack down the flank and deliver a good cross, as he did at Euro 2008, 2009 Confed. Cup and 2010 World Cup for Spain so effectively. On the other side, two time PFA right-back of the season Kelly will get forward on occasion, but primarily be a more stable, defensive minded player.

The bench is where it could be won or lost and mine has seven CL medals and a World Cup at their disposal.

In particular, McManaman has over 100 assists for Liverpool, plus a goal and MOM from a CL final. Morientes was 2003/04's CL top scorer and has won the competition three times, playing in four finals and scoring in 2000. Options galore.

Starting Team

Spoiler

Current Team

Spoiler

Subsitutes:
M.Laursen
Edmilson
Ze Roberto
S.McManaman
F.Morientes

Teams have changed since kick-off

Team Antohan

Starting team

Spoiler

Current team

I'm playing a 4-3-2-1 featuring a more solid defence, a more dominant and creative midfield and plenty of movement and scoring options upfront.

The back four are superb, organised and disciplined. I have Davids and 4-time CL winner Seedorf breaking up play in midfield, nullifying Riquelme and supporting the fullbacks when required. In their prime both dynamic players with excellent workrate and skilful on the ball.

That will give Scholes more attacking freedom, with Zidane and Luis Enrique taking up inside-left (as in WC98) and inside-right positions, clearing up the middle channel for him. They will link up with Scholes to build up play and provide a clearer wide option.

Their intricate passing and movement will send Cling's defence into disarray and any one of them can score from these opportunities (or Vieri, of course, a complete centreforward who will batter the CBs aerially).

And there was Gary Kelly all giddy thinking he had gotten away with it so far... Zidane will tie him in knots, draw Cannavaro and find Vieri who comfortably holds off Carvalho or a surging run from Scholes and Luis Enrique...

Sorry Edwin, your defenders will let you down.

On the other side you have three great frontmen completely isolated and serviced by a lazy bugger who had no balls for the big occasion, which is why he found his level at Villarreal before going back to the more familiar surrounding of being idolised in Argentina.

In Davids, Scholes, Zidane, Luis Enrique and Seedorf I have big game players who show up when the going gets tough. All of them have the winner mentality and character to take a game by the scruff of the neck and steal victory from the jaws of defeat.

Cling only has Mendieta. Go back to Zidane-less France, at the peak of their game, how did Vieira and Henry concoct to have the World Champions last in the group stage with Zidane out injured? Riquelme? Bloody hell, last man I would want to rely on in a high pressure game. He is out of his depth here.

 

[TheReligion]

Tough one this really. Antohan could do with some width in order to run Gary "how the devil are you here" Kelly into the ground along with Capdevilla.

Disappointed you didn't go for Rivaldo too Antohan. He, in place of Forlan, would have been sensational. Zidane, Rivaldo, Vieri... Yum!

 

[Cold_Boy]

Not picking Rivaldo was a big mistake imo.

 

[Polaroid]

Both midfield threes are closely matched, but Cling Bak's front 3 and back 3 secures this contest

Henry-Ronaldo-Overmars > Forlan-Vieri-Zidane
Van Der Sar-Carvalho-Cannavaro > Barthez-Montero-Nesta

 

[Rood]

I thought antohan did pick Rivaldo?! Cant believe he hasnt, would have given him 2 of the outstanding 3 players of the draft - makes a massive difference.

 

[Cutch]

Who has Antohan added to his squad instead of Rivaldo? Not sure who to go for now, Rivaldo would have made it a much easier decision.

 

[Zen]

Wouldn't say the back 3 is better....Nesta is by far the best of the lot, but I guess VDS being by far better than Barthez evens that out, still by no means better, pretty even really. Stunned at him not picking Rio(or well Rivaldo looking at the above posts), not that any two defenders could cope with Henry-Ronaldo, but they'd do the best job I'd imagine.

 

[Rood]

Who has Antohan added to his squad instead of Rivaldo? Not sure who to go for now, Rivaldo would have made it a much easier decision.

Davids - he benched Simeone for him.
I probably would have gone for Rio as 2nd choice after Rivaldo as his midfield was already strong.

I think antohan's favoritism of his own countrymen (Forlan/Montero) will lose him this final.

 

[sajeev]

Forlan is the weaker pick compared to Rivaldo, it just doesn't make sense (unless you are Uruguayan). Zidane-Rivaldo would have tilted a few of the voters. Am still not decided. At this point of time, will probably vote Cling Bak

 

[Jayvin]

I think Cling's team is a bit more balanced than Antohan's. He just edges it, imo.

 

[antohan]

Not picking Rivaldo was a big mistake imo.

The issue with picking Rivaldo was that it would leave me with a central midfield of Scholes and Simeone.

My view was it would be enough as Mendieta and Vieira would be waaay too busy defending and Riquelme would still be nullified, but that was my opinion, one that may not necessarily be shared. Asked for feedback, got none which was very disappointing.

In the end, Rivaldo is not a clearly better wide option than Forlán (better player yes, but not a classic wing player) and I opted for controlling the midfield.

I really cannot see how Cling is going to service his men upfront. They are very attractive on paper, but have no service and without the ball they can't do any damage. They are not renowned for going deep to get stuck in or build up either, they will be completely isolated.

I'm better placed to win the ball, to control possession and the tempo of the game. Any long ball would also be easily cut off as he has no aerial presence whatsoever.

With Rivaldo on it would be a more open back and forth game and the result would be anyone's guess. I've gone for controlling it and have more real big game players who will grind the desired result.

 

[kps88]

The moment we've all been waiting for, Gary Kelly's first appearance in a fantasy draft final.

 

[Cling Bak]

I really cannot see how Cling is going to service his men upfront.

Vieira, Mendieta and Riquelme.

The moment we've all been waiting for, Gary Kelly's first appearance in a fantasy draft final.

It's long overdue.

 

[antohan]

Davids - he benched Simeone for him.
I probably would have gone for Rio as 2nd choice after Rivaldo as his midfield was already strong.

I think antohan's favoritism of his own countrymen (Forlan/Montero) will lose him this final.

It wasn't favoritism, it was the very real danger that I was approaching this too positively. The best way to keep his forwards quiet is them not getting the ball, whether a pretty picture tells you that story is a completely different matter and, in that sense, maybe I should have gone for the marketeer's approach rather than overanalyse how the game would play out.

I'm aware the other lineup would be pure sex and probably a greater vote winner, it just wasn't really as solid an approach to the game.

 

[Gio]

In the end, Rivaldo is not a clearly better wide option than Forlán (better player yes, but not a classic wing player) and I opted for controlling the midfield.

Well Rivaldo played wide left for the bulk of a couple of seasons or so - first with Deportivo then with Barca under Van Gaal. Obviously not a classic winger, but surely a logical choice in an inside left position?

Going by the votes so far, I suspect you've overcompensated in midfield (like I did). You've got more energy in there, but Mendieta, Vieira and Riquelme are all so outstanding at what they do, that it doesn't look like it's going to be area of the park which sways voters one way or the other.

 

[Polaroid]

Wouldn't say the back 3 is better....Nesta is by far the best of the lot, but I guess VDS being by far better than Barthez evens that out, still by no means better, pretty even really. Stunned at him not picking Rio(or well Rivaldo looking at the above posts), not that any two defenders could cope with Henry-Ronaldo, but they'd do the best job I'd imagine.

Nesta is the best of the lot, but not by far better than Cannavaro, not when we are comparing players at their best. Van Der Sar's command of the area, leadership of the defense and distribution puts him some way ahead of Barthez at their respective bests. His unflappable temperament also has a calming steadying effect on the team. I also rate Carvalho who is very solid in every defensive aspect of his game, technical, physical or mental. Easily one of the top 10 centrebacks in this draft by my reckoning. Overall, Cling Bak's back 3 is superior imo.

 

[antohan]

Vieira, Mendieta and Riquelme.

The only big game player there is Mendieta and my only concern as far as service upfront was him as I know Riquelme has a tendency to disappear in these games if it gets a bit rough (I've followed him for long enough!). That's why I put Davids on him, no one would have bought Simeone controlling Mendieta effectively, particularly the younger ones here.

The fact is both Mendieta and Vieira are busy trying to keep tabs on and get possession off Zidane and Forlán and as soon as they do they have Davids and Luis Enrique to contend with.

I have 5 players who will really "work" the midfield core, either through their passing and buildup or their pressing (usually both). You have two.

 

[kps88]

Not a fan of Antohan's formation. Much better off going with the one he used last time with Zidane central.

 

[antohan]

Going by the votes so far, I suspect you've overcompensated in midfield (like I did). You've got more energy in there, but Mendieta, Vieira and Riquelme are all so outstanding at what they do, that it doesn't look like it's going to be area of the park which sways voters one way or the other.

If you pick them individually they are great names on a teamsheet, balanced and all that. If you actually try to see through how they would deal with that midfield they wouldn't have a chance.

I did overcompensate a bit though, I agree but had no intermediate option. That's why I was in two minds over Gattuso or Scholes earlier. With Gattuso I could have fielded him and Seedorf with Rivaldo-Zidane and Luis Enrique further up.

 

[Cold_Boy]

The issue with picking Rivaldo was that it would leave me with a central midfield of Scholes and Simeone.

My view was it would be enough as Mendieta and Vieira would be waaay too busy defending and Riquelme would still be nullified, but that was my opinion, one that may not necessarily be shared. Asked for feedback, got none which was very disappointing.

In the end, Rivaldo is not a clearly better wide option than Forlán (better player yes, but not a classic wing player) and I opted for controlling the midfield.

I really cannot see how Cling is going to service his men upfront. They are very attractive on paper, but have no service and without the ball they can't do any damage. They are not renowned for going deep to get stuck in or build up either, they will be completely isolated.

I'm better placed to win the ball, to control possession and the tempo of the game. Any long ball would also be easily cut off as he has no aerial presence whatsoever.

With Rivaldo on it would be a more open back and forth game and the result would be anyone's guess. I've gone for controlling it and have more real big game players who will grind the desired result.

Sadly its not about what you think in this game.

Its about what people would think and how you can get their vote in your favor.

 

[antohan]

feck this, at this point I wouldn't get back into the game controlling it so there's no point arguing that case.

5 minutes into the game I switch to:

 

[antohan]

Sadly its not about what you think in this game.

Its about what people would think and how you can get their vote in your favor.

That's why I asked for feedback, both in the last gamethread and on the main one.

Got none, bugger all I can do about that.

 

[Rood]

It wasn't favoritism, it was the very real danger that I was approaching this too positively. The best way to keep his forwards quiet is them not getting the ball, whether a pretty picture tells you that story is a completely different matter and, in that sense, maybe I should have gone for the marketeer's approach rather than overanalyse how the game would play out.

I'm aware the other lineup would be pure sex and probably a greater vote winner, it just wasn't really as solid an approach to the game.

I wasnt following closely but the last formation I saw from you had Rivaldo in it so I assumed you went with that and was suprised when i saw this thread!

Davids is an upgrade on Simeone, but Rivaldo or Rio would have won you more votes no doubt. TBH I probably made the same mistake and went for a more solid team rather than the vote winning one.

As it is, Forlan looks a bit out of position so your attack can't match the incredible Henry-Ronaldo-Overmars combo

 

[Red-Indian]

Its a worthy final you have to say. Riqueleme is the only doubt I have about Cling's front 6. For me, he's always seemed to disappear in the big games when the going gets tough - the exact opposite of Zidane in a sense. Without him, I think the supply line to the awesome front 3 is cut off.

I'll go with a piece of Zidane magic making the difference in a tight game.

 

[Snow]

The issue with picking Rivaldo was that it would leave me with a central midfield of Scholes and Simeone.

My view was it would be enough as Mendieta and Vieira would be waaay too busy defending and Riquelme would still be nullified, but that was my opinion, one that may not necessarily be shared. Asked for feedback, got none which was very disappointing.

In the end, Rivaldo is not a clearly better wide option than Forlán (better player yes, but not a classic wing player) and I opted for controlling the midfield.

I really cannot see how Cling is going to service his men upfront. They are very attractive on paper, but have no service and without the ball they can't do any damage. They are not renowned for going deep to get stuck in or build up either, they will be completely isolated.

I'm better placed to win the ball, to control possession and the tempo of the game. Any long ball would also be easily cut off as he has no aerial presence whatsoever.

With Rivaldo on it would be a more open back and forth game and the result would be anyone's guess. I've gone for controlling it and have more real big game players who will grind the desired result.

You got 4 opinions in the match day thread vs Brwned. That's about as much feedback on next picks as people have been getting so far.

I thought I was already clear on my opinion on this so it's not fair you got no feedback at all.

 

[Crustanoid]

feck this, at this point I wouldn't get back into the game controlling it so there's no point arguing that case.

5 minutes into the game I switch to:

Instantly looks a lot better. When I looked at the original two line-ups just now I instantly thought Cling Baks was superior, but now I'm not as sure - I still think Clings edges it but I'll wait a while before voting

Do you not have a proper left sided player? Forlan is a striker first and foremost

 

[antohan]

You got 4 opinions in the match day thread vs Brwned. That's about as much feedback on next picks as people have been getting so far.

I thought I was already clear on my opinion on this so it's not fair you got no feedback at all.

They were mostly discussions on who I could/should pick without the necessary context of how my team would end up lining up.

I gave my views, stated I was in a dilemma, posted the teamsheet that I had doubts over and all I got back was "pick Rustu" from Cling.

Not a massive issue, SAF doesn't get on the caf and ask how he should be lining up. Ultimately the teamsheet I started with was my call.

The difference is the game isn't actually played after and doesn't prove you right or wrong, it's the people that vote, so it would have been useful and that's why I though it.

No ill feelings, but what I'm definitely not having is people now telling me I didn't consider other people's opinions or let my preference for Uruguayan players cloud my judgement or anything of the sort.

 

[Rood]

No ill feelings, but what I'm definitely not having is people now telling me I didn't consider other people's opinions or let my preference for Uruguayan players cloud my judgement or anything of the sort.

Well I only said that because I went back to the original thread to work out why you hadn't gone with Rivaldo and saw you had said this ...

Rivaldo and Ferdinand are very tempting.

Two personal constraints there, I would rather not bench my two Uruguayan captains

 

[antohan]

Instantly looks a lot better. When I looked at the original two line-ups just now I instantly thought Cling Baks was superior, but now I'm not as sure - I still think Clings edges it but I'll wait a while before voting

Do you not have a proper left sided player? Forlan is a striker first and foremost

That's where the whole Rivaldo thing comes on. I had a proper left wing player in my wishlist from the outset but never got the chance until Rivaldo came around, but then could I have Simeone and not Davids in midfield behind them? I was never going to hear the end of how I lost the battle and all that.

I already had too many lesser known/90s/non-EPL underrated players in Luis Enrique, Montero and Candela to keep Simeone in the equation. The whole Forlán question itself is in the same bucket, he is a forward who does very well playing from deep, got the WC Golden Ball playing exactly where he is positioned now, but people find it odd that he is not in the box.

 

[antohan]

Well I only said that because I went back to the original thread to work out why you hadn't gone with Rivaldo and saw you had said this ...

I know, I was saying how I felt... then went on to suggest a Forlán-less lineup.

That in itself should have given a clue I was really trying to clarify things

 

[antohan]

Overall, Cling Bak's back 3 is superior imo.

Back 3s are all well and good, but it is a very convenient way to make Cling's backline look respectable.

Anyone who thinks Capdevila-Carvalho-Cannavaro-Kelly is solid and better than Candela-Montero-Nesta and Zanetti is just certifiable. One backline can deal with continued pressure and soak it up, the other one will fall apart. This is not me being biased, I think it is a pretty glaring weakness.

His backline will be all over the shop and that is far more important than whether VDS is better than Barthez.

 

[antohan]

No idea where Brwned is to do the update

Shame, by the time I picked this it was 11-3 (the equivalent of being 4-1 down 5 minutes into the game , which would never happen with those lineups) and I have a whole day out with clients so will have to see what it looks like when I come back.

Doesn't look good though

FOR REFERENCE TO NEWCOMERS: THIS IS THE FORMATION THAT ACTUALLY PLAYED FROM MINUTE 10 (13-3) TO MINUTE 70 (21-19)

 

[TheReligion]

I just don't think there was any need for Davids with the choices you had and the players you already had.

It is actually disappointing to see Seedorf on the bench. Rivaldo and Zidane would have been a massive, and I mean massive, vote winner with Scholes in behind.

Simeone would have been more than capable along side Enrique/Seedorf.

Antohan does have the best back four though, anyone who says otherwise is mental

 

[Cling Bak]

I gave my views, stated I was in a dilemma, posted the teamsheet that I had doubts over and all I got back was "pick Rustu" from Cling.

And you said you didn't get feedback! But did you listen? Noooo...

Back 3s are all well and good, but it is a very convenient way to make Cling's backline look respectable.

Anyone who thinks Capdevila-Carvalho-Cannavaro-Kelly is solid and better than Candela-Montero-Nesta and Zanetti is just certifiable. One backline can deal with continued pressure and soak it up, the other one will fall apart. This is not me being biased, I think it is a pretty glaring weakness.

His backline will be all over the shop and that is far more important than whether VDS is better than Barthez.

Comparing back fours is also convenient. At least with 'back three' its focusing on the spine of the team. As someone else said, Van der Sar's calming influence and presence will help any defence.

I also hardly think Vincent Candela is a huge upgrade on Capdevila, if at all.

Montero being the centre-back of a team in the final is as much to be questioned as Gary Kelly, if not more given the central area of defence is more important (particularly, in Kelly's case as he isn't even up against an out and out winger).

If anyone wants convincing, never mind the players - look at my oppositiong manager! Flapping all over the place, doesn't know what his best team is, changing formation after five minutes. It's bedlam out there.

Edgar Davids doesn't fancy it already. He's badly wishing I didn't turn him down after the group stages now.

 

[Nani Nana]

Comparing back fours is also convenient. At least with 'back three' its focusing on the spine of the team

lets just compare the 'back one'

 

[Cling Bak]

lets just compare the 'back one'

Barthez vs. Van der Sar?

 

[Polaroid]

Back 3s are all well and good, but it is a very convenient way to make Cling's backline look respectable.

Anyone who thinks Capdevila-Carvalho-Cannavaro-Kelly is solid and better than Candela-Montero-Nesta and Zanetti is just certifiable. One backline can deal with continued pressure and soak it up, the other one will fall apart. This is not me being biased, I think it is a pretty glaring weakness.

His backline will be all over the shop and that is far more important than whether VDS is better than Barthez.

since you think that his fullbacks are such a glaring weakness, then why didn't you exploit it? You had the perfect weapon available in Rivaldo and you discarded it As it is now, people see more problems for your defense in trying to cope with Henry, Ronaldo and Overmars than the other way around.

 

[antohan]

I just don't think there was any need for Davids with the choices you had and the players you already had.

It is actually disappointing to see Seedorf on the bench. Rivaldo and Zidane would have been a massive, and I mean massive, vote winner with Scholes in behind.

Simeone would have been more than capable along side Enrique/Seedorf.

Antohan does have the best back four though, anyone who says otherwise is mental

I focused so much on having three AMs that I overlooked the simplicity of just swapping Forlán for Rivaldo. I also blame yesterday's game, it really could have gone either way because our lack of control in midfield was horrific, which is why I went for the more dominant setup.

 

[Cold_Boy]

Who are antohan's subs?

 

[antohan]

Montero being the centre-back of a team in the final is as much to be questioned as Gary Kelly, if not more given the central area of defence is more important

Sorry, but that is ridiculous. Montero was better than your two fullbacks combined and comparable (I'd say better, but wouldn't I?) to Carvalho.

I posted this in an earlier game:

WC2002 qualifiers with him organising the defence: Uruguay conceded the least goals in the South American qualifiers (13 in 18 games, 4 of these in the 3 games he missed making it 9 in 15 games - 0.6 per game).

WC2006 qualifiers with him left out because he was "past it": Uruguay conceded 23 in 8 games (3 per game).

WC2006 qualifiers once recalled to sort out the defence: Uruguay conceded 5 in 10 games (0.5 per game, that's a SIXfold improvement).

A good Tim Vickery article

Edgar Davids doesn't fancy it already.

I would say the opposite, he is out to prove a point! As is Forlán, who has played there throughout the tournament and has got a good run of games under his belt now.

Ronaldo's gone out three times by now and is completely unsettled by the constant change of tactics and teammates. Sources tell me he had an epileptic fit last night.