3-5-2 formation this season for United?

Hester_manc said:
Because if we meet a team like Brighton, Southampton or Palace, they will be happy to sit back and let the match end 0-0. We will risk having too little creative power to break them down.
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Both Ronaldo and Cavani are clinical to make us at least scoring one goal in the match against those teams with little chances.
 
kouroux said:
Because at home, we are gonna be expected to control the game and create more. Spurs were woeful too
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In games we are less scared the 3-5-2 will need to be swapped for 3-4-3, which is more attacking and can use Sancho.

A lot of teams playing back 3 do rotate between the two setups. Point is whether you use 3 CBs or 2 CBs.

Also, we don't really have a choice. Our defensive play sucks and our forwards don't / can't press so we need to fix our defense with the players we have. Seems like back 3 is the only thing we can so to stop leaking goals. Hating the reality doesn't change it
 
Problem with 442 is the wing positions. They are not very good defensively so it will end up being a 424 or a 415 if you plan on playing Bruno in midfield.

The only practical thing for Ole to do is play a 532. He can rotate Rashford and Greenwood in for Cavani and Ronaldo. Sancho could maybe play the AM position or more likely he could possibly play a wingback role with a Telles against easier opposition. Lingard could come in for Bruno on occasion.

I hope Ole uses this formation until the team get some consistency. He should use the full squad once he gets over this rough patch. He will be sacked at some point but I would like to see him make it to the end of the season.
 
I don’t think this is a permanent formation for us.

I think we keep playing this formation when needed, a kind of horses for courses however against the weaker teams we need to play with four at the back as this formation won’t work as well.

Im not sure exactly what has gone wrong with us defensively but it does feel like a perfect storm. Ole needs to feel his way out of this one and navigate us to safety.
 
Sviken said:
Because Ole has trouble organizing the defence (and midfield for that matter). The easiest way to circumvent that is to stack the defence with players and let our forwards deliver the moments.
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Ole organized a relatively stable defense just last year and the year before. As already pointed out, the formation switch wasn't the only thing new today. Without even mentioning the toothless opponent from today (9 goals in ten matches for Spurs this season), if we had put Varane next to Maguire or Lindelof and setup the team to sit deep and wait for counters, who is to say, that we wouldn't have got the same or an even better result with a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2. We can't always just stay on the first level of looking at the status quo and pretend, this formation does this, that formation does that. Every formation can be played in lots of ways. Some formations are more suited to some approaches, some are less suited.

Dominos said:
Our major weakness under Ole previous 2 years has been breaking down teams who sit behind the ball, and I don't see this 5 at the back helping that in the slightest. However, I would rather us attempt to grind out some 1-0 wins playing like this than see us getting torn to shreds like we have done nearly every game this season.
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Who says we have to choose one tactic for eternity let alone even two games in a row. While every thinkable formation can be played in a multitude of ways, we can adjust so many variables to so many situations on the pitch. So this argument thankfully carries absolutely no value. Look at Fergie, when we needed a goal, he brought on all the strikers he had on the bench. Didn't care with how many he started. You can adapt in infinite ways, from match to match, even within a match. You disliking a formation, is therefor just that - you are disliking it.

Red Royal said:
That us definitely worth a try, with Shaws ability to bring the ball forward it could work..
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So you would play Shaw at Centerback because of his qualities to bring the ball forward? Is that really smart? I mean the up-and-down part is the one that should be carried out by the wingback, so... This would then probably rule out Telles as wingback, think he lacks the engine. If though, we don't interpret the LWB position more as a LM position and the player there more for his role in midfield play, that might work just fine. Best thing with Telles are his early crosses anyways.
 
Couldn’t todays line-up with Pogba instead of McT be a way to finally find a good position for him? Now with three cbs behind?
Boosting uniteds passing play and Quick transfers? Add some creativity to a still solid set-up? Not cutting of the defensive unit and the three in attack (where they Will probably be over-depending on (a closed down) Bruno against a better team?)

Suddenly playing with their best players with rotation of the two attackers (Rashford and Greenwood coming in) and Sancho as a stand in for Bruno in a more natural playmaking position?

Too naive?
 
Abraxas said:
I think Sancho fits in if he plays more of a 3-4-3. It's not a massive stretch of the imagination to see that depending on the setup of our opponents.

It's probably not impossible that he could play the Bruno position, either. As a potential rotation. I don't like it so much as Bruno is a lot more combative and more accustomed to dropping into deeper central areas but it's not impossible, having his technical ability in the game more often could work.

Not as a wingback, that's not a good idea. Doesn't seem to have any defensive instincts and I don't think he's shown the engine so far. If we're going for offbeat changeups for that role Lingard would be better. Although no reason to completely dismiss Dalot from that role either.
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The only possible role for him at this formation, is to rotate with Bruno.

Out of our current front 3 attack in 343 or 3412, we will need to maintain our structure and balance:

Pressing and workhorse - Cavani (Lingard?)
Goalscoring and movement - Ronaldo (Rashford, Greenwood)
Creator and support - Bruno (Pogba, Sancho, Diallo)
 
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I like this formation. Even if it means scoring against bus parking sides will be difficult, we probably won't get sliced open embarrassingly often like it has happened so far this season.

I think Sancho can shine in a forward's role or in Bruno's role with time. Less defensive responsibility will suit a lot of our attackers who frankly have very poor defensive stats(Especially Sancho & CR7) to start with.
 
Terminator said:
I like this formation. Even if it means scoring against bus parking sides will be difficult, we probably won't get sliced open embarrassingly often like it has happened so far this season.

I think Sancho can shine in a forward's role or in Bruno's role with time. Less defensive responsibility will suit a lot of our attackers who frankly have very poor defensive stats(Especially Sancho & CR7) to start with.
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Repeat with me: 3-5-2 is not a counter-attacking formation and you can break down bus-parking teams with it. We used to play 4-2-3-1 and were both counter attacking and struggle with buses.
It is not about formation as much about how team plays.

The problem with 3-5-2 is our wide players will be benched, but we can definitely transform into 3-4-3 in many games
 
The problem we'll have with a 3 at the back over the long run is our full backs aren't wing backs, to play 3 at the back successfully ideally you want wing backs who run the flanks with great attacking output, you could argue Shaw is just about passable, but Wan-Bissaka is nowhere near being a wing back. The 2 in front of the defence assuming it's Fred and McTominay will have their usual problem of breaking through the lines too, leading to us struggling against the press. This lack of creativity would likely be more noticeable if we try to play the formation in games where we're going to be expected to take the play to the opposition, who won't just leave the huge gaps Tottenham did today (especially for the 2nd and 3rd goal's).

Problem looking at the bigger picture is we simply haven't built a squad with this formation in mind, so it's very clearly off the cuff. We've spent 2 summers chasing a guy we spent £73m on that would have no real role in such a formation, we spent £50m on Wan-Bissaka who isn't a wing back, and to not upgrade the midfield would be criminal if such a formation was the plan.

RedPed said:
I don't see any reason why we can't try 4-4-2?
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I can't see any combination of a midfield central 2 that would work. To play 4-4-2 this day and age you normally need 2 excellent central midfielders with legs, and/or 1 of the 2 up top has to be basically willing to come into a 3 when defending. I'm not sure our wide players would be suited to being traditional wingers either, they're more wide forwards.

smi11ie said:
Problem with 442 is the wing positions. They are not very good defensively so it will end up being a 424 or a 415 if you plan on playing Bruno in midfield.

The only practical thing for Ole to do is play a 532. He can rotate Rashford and Greenwood in for Cavani and Ronaldo. Sancho could maybe play the AM position or more likely he could possibly play a wingback role with a Telles against easier opposition. Lingard could come in for Bruno on occasion.

I hope Ole uses this formation until the team get some consistency. He should use the full squad once he gets over this rough patch. He will be sacked at some point but I would like to see him make it to the end of the season.
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And what if we never get that consistency. We've gone through many iterations the last few seasons. I remember when we initially struck upon Fred and McTominay and that was meant to be the answer. The problems at the club go far deeper than a formation change, I doubt this formation will change anything on a consistency front.

I'd also argue it's far from being the only practical thing to do with the players at our disposal. How many top managers do you think would come in and also play 5-3-2 with what we have at our disposal? We've never really tried flooding the midfield for example.
 
NewGlory said:
Repeat with me: 3-5-2 is not a counter-attacking formation and you can break down bus-parking teams with it. We used to play 4-2-3-1 and were both counter attacking and struggle with buses.
It is not about formation as much about how team plays.

The problem with 3-5-2 is our wide players will be benched, but we can definitely transform into 3-4-3 in many games
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3-5-2 is not a counter-attacking formation but with our players, it definitely is IMO. Quality attacking wingbacks are very important in this formation especially against deep seated teams and while I really like Shaw & AWB, their attacking output leaves a lot to be desired compared to the modern wingbacks.

With someone like Trent/Reece James I would agree 3-5-2 can be a very effective formation against all types of teams.
 
Either playing a 3-4-3 or 3-5-2, it just shows the that there is no forsite in managements decisions on players. Lets grab the shiney new toy to appease the fans. Theres no position for Pogba in a 3-4-3 and with a 3-5-2, their is alot of talent riding the bench.
 
Terminator said:
3-5-2 is not a counter-attacking formation but with our players, it definitely is IMO. Quality attacking wingbacks are very important in this formation especially against deep seated teams and while I really like Shaw & AWB, their attacking output leaves a lot to be desired compared to the modern wingbacks.

With someone like Trent/Reece James I would agree 3-5-2 can be a very effective formation against all types of teams.
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That is fair. Shaw was brilliant in attack, last season, but has been extremely lukewarm this season. AWB has almost never been decent in attack... until yesterday. I couldn't believe my eyes but honestly he was very decent. Not world class, but on a different level compared to his past. Not sure if this can happen again or how often?
 
We had to stop the bleeding going into the Spurs match so a back three made sense but in retrospect it probably wasn’t necessary other than calm everyone down. Up against City we’ll need to bring it out again but when facing bottom half clubs who will park acres of buses for us we’ll probably want to add the extra attacking player back in.
 
NewGlory said:
In games we are less scared the 3-5-2 will need to be swapped for 3-4-3, which is more attacking and can use Sancho.

A lot of teams playing back 3 do rotate between the two setups. Point is whether you use 3 CBs or 2 CBs.

Also, we don't really have a choice. Our defensive play sucks and our forwards don't / can't press so we need to fix our defense with the players we have. Seems like back 3 is the only thing we can so to stop leaking goals. Hating the reality doesn't change it
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Based on one game against an awful Spurs side ? We'd have beaten them no matter the formation. If there are more games proving the solidity of the back 4 then by all means, let's play it regularly. I find the early conclusions against a shit team very premature
 
Cavani is the tevez to this Ronaldo
 
3 at the back works for us, sometimes, better than a 4-2-3-1 because we don’t have a functional number 6. In a 3-5-2 you can play with two number 8’s (Fred and McTominay) because the third center back so often steps up out of defence to fill that gap between defence and midfield. It helps our two cms be more box to box, and as the third cb often creates a three in midfield, helps us not get passed through so easily. Bruno can also drop back and create the 3 without either of McFred having to drop into the sitting role. Maguire is perfect for that role.

In order for that formation to really work long term, you need wingbacks with significant attacking output. Otherwise you are essentially playing 5 defenders.

Personally I would play Shaw as part of the back three and have Telles on the left. I don’t particularly rate Telles but he’s better suited to the role going forwards. And Varane and Shaw as your covering CBs offers a lot of pace, and Maguire pressing and stepping out offers aerial domination in that half back role, as well as excellent distribution.

Ultimately to be successful doing it at the very top level you need wingbacks of the calibre of Davies, Hakimi, James etc. So to me this feels like a short term fix to turn the tide of a bad losing streak. Once teams organise against this formation, the attributes of our squad are not of a sufficient calibre to make this formation successful.
 
I think in future we should build from this.

Current best 11:

De Gea

Lindelof—-—-Varane——--Maguire

AWB ——-————- Mctominay——————--—-Shaw
———————————Fred
Bruno—————-———-
————————-+Cavani——-Ronaldo


Backup XI:

Henderson

Bailey———-Jones———Mengi

Dalot———————-Matic————————--Telles
———-———————Pogba
Lingard——————————.
————————Greenwood——-Rashford
​

Further down/Surplus to our squad? Sancho, Diallo, Martial

I would like to see more of VDB rather than Fred though. Maybe when we are playing against bottom half, we could replace Fred with Pogba.

The reason why the starting line up work against Spur, is that we have compact structure with many players willing to fight for the ball. We don’t need 4 strikers there, only play Ronaldo, Cavani and Bruno as our attacking player, their link up play and movement are good enough to break down opponents defense. Let’s say if we play Greenwood, Rashford, Sancho, Pogba together, they won’t do anything combative. It’s completely different style of football, may only work against teams who sit back deep and give us spaces.


GK

ball playing CB—-ball playing CB—-ball playing CB

attacking WB ——-——- no.8/DM/workhorse—————--—-attacking WB
———————————no.8/box-to-box/workhorse
supporting/combative AM—————-———-
————————-no.9/workhorse——goalscoring WF
​

And this essentially gives good structure and balance to our team.
 
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Sancho played 352 with Haaland before Favre was sacked. That was in 19/20 and 20/21. So there is still space for him to be part of the squad this season if we end up switching to 352/343. And also this is the only formation to allow us to play Pogba and Bruno in midfield in my opinion. McTominay can also be a cover for the 3 CB.
 
northernfan said:
Either playing a 3-4-3 or 3-5-2, it just shows the that there is no forsite in managements decisions on players. Lets grab the shiney new toy to appease the fans. Theres no position for Pogba in a 3-4-3 and with a 3-5-2, their is alot of talent riding the bench.
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Pogba is perfect in a 3-5-2 double pivot because we have additional cover for his poor defensive awareness and tracking back.
4-2-4 with Pogba in the double pivot is pure madness, considering how poor he already is in a 4-2-3-1 with the current midfield personnel.

FYI - it’s foresight.
 
The only thing I like about this 352 setup is that it shifts the weight of defending to back 3, meaning midfielders can be more adventurous and attacking. We could get away with one of Pogba / van de Beek no problem.

But other than that I doubt it'll be effective, Wan Bissaka had a good game yesterday but I'd surprised if he performed like that every game, and Shaw is very poor this season.

For now at least it gives us some stability at the back and we looked much more compact, so I have no issue with playing like that.
I also think we need a runner forward in starting XI, so Ronaldo or Cavani + Rashford or Greenwood would be my choice.

I don't see any space for Sancho unless we drop Bruno and play LW-CF-RW.
 
smi11ie said:
I think it has to be this system for the remainder of Ole's season. Utd were shipping goals playing a pressing 4231. 532 is solid and, although not the most entertaining formation, will get results.

I don't care is Greenwood or Sancho don't start much, results are of greater concern.
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You seriously don’t care if our best young prospects don’t play much?!
 
I think from this peformance, CR7's arrival derailed a lot of OGS's tactical preparations for this season. Also, because he is not a tactically astute, so he has problems fitting in CR7 into the team.

The old 4-2-3-1 would transit into a 4-2-4 while counterattacking, but because the front line did not press as hard and as coordinated with CR7, and CR7 would not be able to come deep to retrieve the ball, it created too much pressure in the defense and center midfield.

However with this new formation, the club has way too many wingers. It is hard to play them with this position, and only way for OGS is to go back to last season's 4-2-3-1 against weaker teams with Pogba on left midfield. So this formation would closer to Liverpool's 4-3-3 and would utilize our wingers/inside forwards.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
You seriously don’t care if our best young prospects don’t play much?!
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The way Greenwood, Martial and Sancho play.. Some of our younger players may have been mollycoddled into thinking they are the dog’s bollocks without putting in the hard yards. Thankfully we have experienced heads upfront to jolt and show them how average they really are.
 
FahadiHossein said:
I think from this peformance, CR7's arrival derailed a lot of OGS's tactical preparations for this season. Also, because he is not a tactically astute, so he has problems fitting in CR7 into the team.

The old 4-2-3-1 would transit into a 4-2-4 while counterattacking, but because the front line did not press as hard and as coordinated with CR7, and CR7 would not be able to come deep to retrieve the ball, it created too much pressure in the defense and center midfield.

However with this new formation, the club has way too many wingers. It is hard to play them with this position, and only way for OGS is to go back to last season's 4-2-3-1 against weaker teams with Pogba on left midfield. So this formation would closer to Liverpool's 4-3-3 and would utilize our wingers/inside forwards.
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I think we should forget about Pogba if we're not playing 352 or need an impact sub.
We already have too many forwards / wingers to care about Paul, something that won't be a problem next season most likely.
 
We can start using Rashford and Greenwood to rotate and rest Cavani/CR upfront, provided the former play as a striker and not wingers.
Sancho and VDB can be tried to rotate and rest Bruno
 
Pronewbie said:
The way Greenwood, Martial and Sancho play.. Some of our younger players may have been mollycoddled into thinking they are the dog’s bollocks without putting in the hard yards. Thankfully we have experienced heads upfront to jolt and show them how average they really are.
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This is far too extreme. Yes they should work harder and other managers may demand that from them but you are being far too harsh. Sancho is acclimatising to life here and hasn’t adjusted yet, but he’s proven his class for years prior as one of footballs top prospects. Greenwood has been arguably our best attacking player this season overall, he’s carried us in games at times and scored some cracking goals. Again it’s fair to question his work rate but his work on the ball this season has been top draw more often than not. The fact that people are willing to write off two players with yeh potential to be the best in world football says it all about where we are at and the attitude of some of this fan base.
 
Ole’s obviously had every intention of persisting with the 4231, it’s been his blueprint for the team. The problem is that the 2 we have isn’t strong enough defensively or composed enough to dictate the game, and the 3 aren’t nearly disciplined or measured enough to compensate for any of those frailties. It’s just a shame it took a 5-0 drubbing at home for that to really register.

This new system may well be the way for us to set up, but it’s a U-turn on how he’s built this squad and it’s a shame he’s lost his credibility at this point.
 
Yesterday's 4-4-2 requires two of Cavani, Ronaldo and Rashford to be playing all season. The first two players have 70 years between them. It will be interesting to see how this formation holds up against a wounded City next week. One team (apparently) has too many strikers, the other team doesn't have any!
 
FahadiHossein said:
I think from this peformance, CR7's arrival derailed a lot of OGS's tactical preparations for this season. Also, because he is not a tactically astute, so he has problems fitting in CR7 into the team.

The old 4-2-3-1 would transit into a 4-2-4 while counterattacking, but because the front line did not press as hard and as coordinated with CR7, and CR7 would not be able to come deep to retrieve the ball, it created too much pressure in the defense and center midfield.

However with this new formation, the club has way too many wingers. It is hard to play them with this position, and only way for OGS is to go back to last season's 4-2-3-1 against weaker teams with Pogba on left midfield. So this formation would closer to Liverpool's 4-3-3 and would utilize our wingers/inside forwards.
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Even if we play Greenwood, Rashford, Martial, Pogba, Sancho, none of them would press or fight for the ball. But once we put them all in our bench, we start seeing a far more compact system, and playing with more intense and urgency. Also, our back four under 4 defender system just isn’t good enough, McFred or Pogba/Matic in 424 look very lost and easy to cut through, thats why we need to change it to 3 CB + 2 WB, which gives our defensive players better structure/framework to work along.
 
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Borys said:
I think we should forget about Pogba if we're not playing 352 or need an impact sub.
We already have too many forwards / wingers to care about Paul, something that won't be a problem next season most likely.
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No, this is the problem when we do not have enough central midfielders when we were 4-2-3-1. Same issue as last season when we lost to Spurs at home.
The center midfield is a pressure cooker. McFred usually get overwhelmed by opponents' pressing, and create more pressure by going back to DDG or Maguire with the ball if they cannot find Shaw. However, when Pogba is around, McFred has an extra outlet to play to, and the ball can then be passed to Fernandes.
The only way that we can omit Pogba is by slowing the game down and controlling the game by having both wingers drop back and play slow possession football. However, OGS likes direct, counterattacking football in which the front is too far away from McFred and if Pogba/vdB serves as the extra midfield to receive the ball from Fred and bring it to Fernandes.
 
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TrustInJanuzaj said:
You seriously don’t care if our best young prospects don’t play much?!
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Hmm. Let me see.

Option 1) Keep a 4231, play the prospects, lose games and see Ole sacked.

Option 2) Play a 532, get results, play two world class forwards and Ole mabye keep his job for a little while longer.

I chose option 2. The prospects will still get game time but Ole needs to play his best players and, as good as they are, the prospects are not as good as Ronaldo and Cavani.
 
FahadiHossein said:
No, this is the problem when we do not have enough central midfielders when we were 4-2-3-1. Same issue as last season when we lost to Spurs at home.
The center midfield is a pressure cooker. McFred usually get overwhelmed by opponents' pressing, and create more pressure by going back to DDG or Maguire with the ball if they cannot find Shaw. However, when Pogba is around, McFred has an extra outlet to play to, and the ball can then be passed to Fernandes.
The only way that we can omit Pogba is by slowing the game down and controlling the game by having both wingers drop back and play slow possession football. However, OGS likes direct, counterattacking football in which the front is too far away from McFred and if Pogba/vdB serves as the extra midfield to receive the ball from Fred and bring it to Fernandes.
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I like Pogba on the left against packed defenses. He is useful in build up playas you said. But now with Sancho I'd rather use him as the link between midfield and Bruno +CF as he'll be a part of that team long term.

There's a few ways Pogba can be used this season, but not when we're playing 4231/424.
 

Hmm. Let me see.

Option 1) Keep a 4231, play the prospects, lose games and see Ole sacked.

Option 2) Play a 532, get results, play two world class forwards and Ole mabye keep his job for a little while longer.

I chose option 2. The prospects will still get game time but Ole needs to play his best players and, as good as they are, the prospects are not as good as Ronaldo and Cavani.
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I want us to win but win in style. If Ole can’t deliver that we would at least be getting a boring bastard that can actually win things like Conte in (who I don’t want). If Ole was a better manager he wouldn’t find it that hard to find a place for a Greenwood or Sancho.
 
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