3-5-2 formation this season for United?

[Pronewbie]

This is far too extreme. Yes they should work harder and other managers may demand that from them but you are being far too harsh. Sancho is acclimatising to life here and hasn’t adjusted yet, but he’s proven his class for years prior as one of footballs top prospects. Greenwood has been arguably our best attacking player this season overall, he’s carried us in games at times and scored some cracking goals. Again it’s fair to question his work rate but his work on the ball this season has been top draw more often than not. The fact that people are willing to write off two players with yeh potential to be the best in world football says it all about where we are at and the attitude of some of this fan base.

It really isn’t and I think you’ve missed the point, unless your standards for the club is to challenge for top 4 every year.

Greenwood and Sancho don’t make the England first XI for valid reasons. You claim Greenwood is great on the ball, but he's not as good as Ronaldo to justify the poor defensive work-rate.

Ronnie was so amazing going forward (albeit raw) when he first joined that it justified Fergie dropping RVN for him and making sure he had hard runners around him. Mason is nowhere near that level. Sancho’s not shown up this season either, so again, it’s good to jolt them and make them understand the standards they need to meet if they want to start for the club.

This isn’t as shocking as you think. Happens in work life more often than you think. It’s good management and a test of character.

 

[Deery]

I’ve never liked 5-3-2 as a formation but have to admit it was the best we probably ever looked as a team everyone was solid and did their job right, I think we should continue with it.

 

[NinjaZombie]

Our major weakness under Ole previous 2 years has been breaking down teams who sit behind the ball, and I don't see this 5 at the back helping that in the slightest. However, I would rather us attempt to grind out some 1-0 wins playing like this than see us getting torn to shreds like we have done nearly every game this season.

It's not really a back 5 in games where we'd be looking to have most of the ball. Shaw and AWB will need to contribute a lot to our attack and this shape allows us to do that while still keeping enough defensive cover with the 3 centre backs and one of McTominay and Fred rotating to the wings to provide cover out wide.

I think this is the way to go. A 4231 with wingers is too open because our wingers for some reason don't really get back and defend which puts too much burden on Shaw and AWB who are having to do both. The 4231 also results in us being too static in attacks out wide with the wingers starting positions being so high up.

The 352 also allows us to play Cavani and Ronaldo together. That's not me saying the best players on paper should always play. It's more to do with the fact that Cavani's hold up play, pressing and work rate is the key to integrating Ronaldo properly into the team. Though to be honest, the fact that Cavani is a harder worker off the ball is damning on Rashford, Martial and Greenwood. I've long given up on Martial but I hope Greenwood and Rashford takes notes from Cavani in this respect.

 

[ForeverRed1]

First time this season we didn’t look like conceding yesterday. We looked compact, hard to break down and dangerous going forward. What we really need is a top class dm that can sit in front of the defence instead of having two there (mcfred) to free up another attacking player.

I think ole has to go this way. Does feel wasteful of all the attacking talent we have though.

 

[Waynne]

First time this season we didn’t look like conceding yesterday. We looked compact, hard to break down and dangerous going forward. What we really need is a top class dm that can sit in front of the defence instead of having two there (mcfred) to free up another attacking player.

I think ole has to go this way. Does feel wasteful of all the attacking talent we have though.

That may be but it was also a very sorry Spurs side. I didn't feel they were at all threatening throughout the match and it's probably the worst I've seen this Spurs team. I mean the fans were even chanting 'You don't know what you're doing' to Spurs manager before half time.

The 3-4-3 looked good with the two wing backs but I'd like to see Telles and Dalot in those wing back positions. Both can put in very good crosses to our forwards. Also since Dalot is horrible at defending and really good going forward he will have more attacking threat than Wan Bissaka.

 

[FahadiHossein]

It's not really a back 5 in games where we'd be looking to have most of the ball. Shaw and AWB will need to contribute a lot to our attack and this shape allows us to do that while still keeping enough defensive cover with the 3 centre backs and one of McTominay and Fred rotating to the wings to provide cover out wide.

I think this is the way to go. A 4231 with wingers is too open because our wingers for some reason don't really get back and defend which puts too much burden on Shaw and AWB who are having to do both. The 4231 also results in us being too static in attacks out wide with the wingers starting positions being so high up.

Yes, I agree with you. The front few and the back few leave way too much space in the middle. Our full backs do not contribute as much overlapping and underlapping runs as Liverpool and Man City. OGS just relies on direct long balls and the speed of the forwards to score. Worse teams have found out how to counter him. He is pretty much a one-trick pony.
I replicated his formation in FM and even FM complained about the huge gap in the middle of the park.

 

[captain666]

At least the team looked comfortable playing that formation,quite neat and compact,of course it's not necessarily the method for every game but encouraging nonetheless,versatility and flexibility mid-game are what we need.

 

[Lentwood]

I have said this before, but we could play that 5-3-2 against the better side and then play a genuine 3-5-2 against sides we will need to try and break down. Just swap either Shaw/Lindelof and AWB for Rashford and Sancho and have them play like orthodox wingers

 

[tenpoless]

Sancho is acclimatising to life here and hasn’t adjusted yet, but he’s proven his class for years prior as one of footballs top prospects.

Sancho situation is on Ole. We all thought he was the missing puzzle and we need him to replace James. We thought we lacked a top right side attacker and Ole didn't trust the rest of the option that's why he wanted us to play mainly from the left. Now that we've got Sancho, Ole mostly plays him on the left and the rest of the team starts showing weaknesses in other areas. Turns out he's not the missing puzzle. The missing puzzle is the structure and direction on what kind of team is this United team. You can't just throw around top attackers on the field and expect them to figure out the rest themselves.

 

[DJ_21]

I have said this before, but we could play that 5-3-2 against the better side and then play a genuine 3-5-2 against sides we will need to try and break down. Just swap either Shaw/Lindelof and AWB for Rashford and Sancho and have them play like orthodox wingers

Solskjær isn’t tactical or smart enough to do that. He has no idea how to fit in the best players while being organised. I think under conte we’d possibly see lingard as the RM/RWB… he’s got energy. I’d go 3-4-3 and that way rashford and sancho will have less defensive responsibility.

 

[Bebestation]

I want to repost something from the Pogba threads here to see people's opinion.

"
Please don't have a go at me because I just want to know the opinion:

The 352 :

I like it and we saw the less anxious versions of Mctominay, Fred and Wan Bissaka because they had 3 defender's playing behind them.

Can we play Pogba in this midfield?

I think the 352 looked good but we are playing one player extra defensively than we should considering Mctominay, Fred and even Wan Bissaka can be quite defensive players.

De Gea
Lindelof - Varane - Maguire
Wan Bissaka- Fred - Pogba - Shaw
Bruno
Cavani - Ronaldo​

Does this lead us to the same weaknesses? Or does having the back 3 on paper cover the cracks of Fred & Pogba (or Mctominay/Pogba).

I ask because since the links to Conte I have been looking at his old 352 or 343 - but he did have Fabregas & Kante in midfield.

I feel we could use that creativity in midfield that a player like Fabregas brings in midfield when playing a 352.
"

 

[davidmichael]

I think we’d have looked even better yesterday with Ethan Laird on the right as he’s very much a modern day right back/wing back and is excelling at Swansea at the moment, if AWB is playing in that formation then I’d play Pogba in midfield as there’s zero creativity or much going forward from the 4 that played yesterday against a better team.

 

[Freak]

This is why I love formations with 2 strikers instead of one that we so often see these days. 2 strikers with combination play and understanding cause lots of problems to defences. Was great seeing Cavani and Ronnie together today.

 

[Born2Lose]

Felt like the first time watching us this season that I didn't think the other team had an extra man. No surprise when you pick eleven players with high workrate.

Shaw and AWB regularly do that amount of attacking anyway so it makes sense to add a 3rd CB behind and allow them a bit more freedom and knowledge that if they lose the ball they don't have to sprint back. Feels like a real vindication for these two as I think they regularly get stick unfairly due to Greenwood/Rashford not giving them any assistance.

Saw Ole's interview after and he said something "If they don't work hard enough, they don't play". I hope for his sake he sticks with this mantra going forward.

 

[NZT-One]

Ole’s obviously had every intention of persisting with the 4231, it’s been his blueprint for the team. The problem is that the 2 we have isn’t strong enough defensively or composed enough to dictate the game, and the 3 aren’t nearly disciplined or measured enough to compensate for any of those frailties. It’s just a shame it took a 5-0 drubbing at home for that to really register.

This new system may well be the way for us to set up, but it’s a U-turn on how he’s built this squad and it’s a shame he’s lost his credibility at this point.

Ole had his 4-2-3-1 relatively stable since 2019/2020 season. With either Pogba/Matic/Fred/McTom. Why? Where they better players back then? No! They were doing a better job because our go-to-approach for games was sitting deeper and waiting for counters. Just like we did today. Ignoring that switch for yesterdays game and only focusing on the little formation switch isn't bringing in any new knowledge. We even had Varane back today. And we looked good defensively against the Nuno-edition of Spurs (9 goals in 10 matches) not against Bayern Munich. Context, Context, Context!

No, this is the problem when we do not have enough central midfielders when we were 4-2-3-1. Same issue as last season when we lost to Spurs at home.
The center midfield is a pressure cooker. McFred usually get overwhelmed by opponents' pressing, and create more pressure by going back to DDG or Maguire with the ball if they cannot find Shaw. However, when Pogba is around, McFred has an extra outlet to play to, and the ball can then be passed to Fernandes.
The only way that we can omit Pogba is by slowing the game down and controlling the game by having both wingers drop back and play slow possession football. However, OGS likes direct, counterattacking football in which the front is too far away from McFred and if Pogba/vdB serves as the extra midfield to receive the ball from Fred and bring it to Fernandes.

Your premise is flawed because you don't consider the approach. If a team decides to stay deep, even not so great players can do a good job defensively. The issue isn't connected with formations, it is connected with approaches that doesn't get out the best out of the personnel in a particular formation.


Hmm. Let me see.

Option 1) Keep a 4231, play the prospects, lose games and see Ole sacked.

Option 2) Play a 532, get results, play two world class forwards and Ole mabye keep his job for a little while longer.

I chose option 2. The prospects will still get game time but Ole needs to play his best players and, as good as they are, the prospects are not as good as Ronaldo and Cavani.
[/QUOTE]
But Option 2 will only push the issue into next year (best case scenario, probably even sooner) because of the age of these "best players".

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I want us to win but win in style. If Ole can’t deliver that we would at least be getting a boring bastard that can actually win things like Conte in (who I don’t want). If Ole was a better manager he wouldn’t find it that hard to find a place for a Greenwood or Sancho.

Honestly, at this point, I don't give a feck about style if we can win things. If we are playing this type of formation but winning 3-0 or 2-0, why should we be picky about winning in style?

And I have to be disagree there about highlighted one. Any manager will still find it hard to find a place for players if the squad is unbalanced. In my opinion if Ole was a better manager, he is supposed to know what players he needs and if he knows, that better manager probably wouldn't need to spend 72m on Sancho.

 

[GreatDane]

I think we’d have looked even better yesterday with Ethan Laird on the right as he’s very much a modern day right back/wing back and is excelling at Swansea at the moment, if AWB is playing in that formation then I’d play Pogba in midfield as there’s zero creativity or much going forward from the 4 that played yesterday against a better team.

Very much agree with Laird, he would be great for us in a 352 or 343.

 

[Steve Bruce]

If we're playing that formation we might as well bring in Conte who knows how to win leagues playing it rather than rookie Ole who doesn't know a tictac from a tactic let alone coach it.

 

[crossy1686]

We absolutely have to play this formation. We need the bodies in midfield, we don't have the players to play a 2 man midfield, it's fecking crazy to just stick Fred and McTomminay in there on their own.

 

[cyberman]

I think we’d have looked even better yesterday with Ethan Laird on the right as he’s very much a modern day right back/wing back and is excelling at Swansea at the moment, if AWB is playing in that formation then I’d play Pogba in midfield as there’s zero creativity or much going forward from the 4 that played yesterday against a better team.

I think Sancho can work his way into that WB role but adapt it a bit for his style. He would be ruthless with the space WBs get in that position.
Maybe not v top sides but in 90 percent of other games

 

[Leftback99]

It's been one game. I think people are getting ahead of themselves that this will be a permanent move.

 

[Zen86]

Ole had his 4-2-3-1 relatively stable since 2019/2020 season. With either Pogba/Matic/Fred/McTom. Why? Where they better players back then? No! They were doing a better job because our go-to-approach for games was sitting deeper and waiting for counters. Just like we did today. Ignoring that switch for yesterdays game and only focusing on the little formation switch isn't bringing in any new knowledge. We even had Varane back today. And we looked good defensively against the Nuno-edition of Spurs (9 goals in 10 matches) not against Bayern Munich. Context, Context, Context!

We were tighter defensively yes, which gave the team a stable foundation in which to attack. As we’ve attempted to be more aggressive in our play we’ve lost that stability, which is why we’ve been opened up with ease by teams big and small. We don’t really have the personnel to play how Ole wants, but we’ve also recruited ourselves into a bit of a hole with the number of forwards we have.

 

[crossy1686]

It's been one game. I think people are getting ahead of themselves that this will be a permanent move.

Against the most out of form team in the league also. It's a bit concerning that people are actively upset we won a game though

 

[Mickeza]

Honestly, at this point, I don't give a feck about style if we can win things. If we are playing this type of formation but winning 3-0 or 2-0, why should we be picky about winning in style?

And I have to be disagree there about highlighted one. Any manager will still find it hard to find a place for players if the squad is unbalanced. In my opinion if Ole was a better manager, he is supposed to know what players he needs and if he knows, that better manager probably wouldn't need to spend 72m on Sancho.

He was clearly signed without Ronaldo in mind. We signed Ronaldo on a whim because we felt we had to and now we’re trying to figure out what happens next.

 

[laughtersassassin]

My problem with 352 under Ole is he spent years buying way too many attackers to now only be able to play 2 is madness in my opinion.

Essentially if he needs to switch to this formation to win his squad building for it wasn't correct

 

[el_loco_bielsa]

It’ll allow solidity at the back and stop you conceding needless goals against inferior opposition but against the likes of city, Chelsea, Liverpool, the better teams in the CL you’ll effectively be playing a 5-3-2 and ceding approx 60% or more of the possession.

If ole then chooses to play Ronaldo and cavani upfront then I see cavani spending most of the game man-marking/harassing Fabinho or Jorginho or rodri whilst they dictate the game from your third of the pitch and Ronaldo wandering around deprived of the ball on the halfway line with 2 of VVD/matip/Dias/Laporte etc for company. It’ll effectively be an attack vs defence training game.

That dynamic obviously changes if ole is brave enough to drop Ronaldo and play rapid highly mobile strikers like rashford and greenwood instead because they allow you a simple over the top get out ball every single time and the opportunity to win a foot race against the two central defenders.

 

[#07]

Ole had his 4-2-3-1 relatively stable since 2019/2020 season. With either Pogba/Matic/Fred/McTom. Why? Where they better players back then? No! They were doing a better job because our go-to-approach for games was sitting deeper and waiting for counters. Just like we did today. Ignoring that switch for yesterdays game and only focusing on the little formation switch isn't bringing in any new knowledge. We even had Varane back today. And we looked good defensively against the Nuno-edition of Spurs (9 goals in 10 matches) not against Bayern Munich. Context, Context, Context!


Your premise is flawed because you don't consider the approach. If a team decides to stay deep, even not so great players can do a good job defensively. The issue isn't connected with formations, it is connected with approaches that doesn't get out the best out of the personnel in a particular formation.

Correct.

In truth there was relatively little need to play 3-5-2 yesterday. We could have played 4-2-3-1 and got the same result.

People are acting like playing 4-2-3-1 is an 'open' formation. The fact its Jose Mourinho's default setting should be a sign its not.

We went to City in March, this year, playing 4-2-3-1 and won. That was possible because, as you point out, we were compact, sat relatively deep and used counter attacks.

There was no reason for Ole to instruct the team to try and press and play on the front foot. That is what created our issues, not the formation.

We played Liverpool 4-2-3-1 when we drew with them at Anfield and beat them in the FA Cup in January. Neither time did we look like getting pulverised. That's because, in those games, Ole was smart enough not to try and go toe-to-toe with them and to play on the break. Maybe he got giddy when we signed Ronaldo but, until yesterday, it felt like he'd forgotten that he's a counterattacking manager with a counterattacking squad.

Whether we stick with 3-5-2 or go back to 4-2-3-1, or 4-4-2 diamond or any of the other formations Ole's used, as long as we're compact when we lose the ball we should be fine most weeks.

 

[tomaldinho1]

First time this season we didn’t look like conceding yesterday. We looked compact, hard to break down and dangerous going forward. What we really need is a top class dm that can sit in front of the defence instead of having two there (mcfred) to free up another attacking player.

I think ole has to go this way. Does feel wasteful of all the attacking talent we have though.

I guess let’s see if it works versus City. Spurs have scored 9 league goals all season and Nuno has somehow found a way to make Kane invisible, we shipped 5 at home to the only other team I’d class as around City’s level offensively, I guess 5 at the back will at minimum stop a humiliation against them and we could nick a goal on the counter like we usually do against them.

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

Despite being glad about the win I thought we played pretty dull again. I imagine Ole going "Harry my captain, you are just not good enough to play in a back 4. But clever as I am I am just going to stick you into a back 5."
Also Shaw and AWB both tried but they are no wing-backs and do not offer enough width. With McTominay and Fred in midfield and no real wingers we lack both pace and creativity.
Poor old Bruno tries to do his best to play wonder passes and gets stick from some, but what should he do?
Our two forwards with a combined age of 70 are great footballers and finishers, but a defensively more compact team than Spurs would have isolated them, leaving them frustrated once again.

In my opinion we would have won comfortably anyway, no matter which formation we played or which of our attackers were on the pitch. Spurs were dreadful, no idea what happened to them?

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

It really isn’t and I think you’ve missed the point, unless your standards for the club is to challenge for top 4 every year.

Greenwood and Sancho don’t make the England first XI for valid reasons. You claim Greenwood is great on the ball, but he's not as good as Ronaldo to justify the poor defensive work-rate.

Ronnie was so amazing going forward (albeit raw) when he first joined that it justified Fergie dropping RVN for him and making sure he had hard runners around him. Mason is nowhere near that level. Sancho’s not shown up this season either, so again, it’s good to jolt them and make them understand the standards they need to meet if they want to start for the club.

This isn’t as shocking as you think. Happens in work life more often than you think. It’s good management and a test of character.

Think you are massively underrating Greenwood. He should start for England too on that right hand side.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Honestly, at this point, I don't give a feck about style if we can win things. If we are playing this type of formation but winning 3-0 or 2-0, why should we be picky about winning in style?

And I have to be disagree there about highlighted one. Any manager will still find it hard to find a place for players if the squad is unbalanced. In my opinion if Ole was a better manager, he is supposed to know what players he needs and if he knows, that better manager probably wouldn't need to spend 72m on Sancho.

Well I do and that’s why I have and always wil hate Mourinho. I watch football for entertainment not just to pick up a tin pot at the end of the season. If we play good football and win that’s what matters. I know we can’t do that every week but lowering expectations on the quality of football we should play is part of the reason we are in this mess.

Yes it’s about balance and not just throwing every attacking player onto the pitch at once. But if you think for a moment that Klopp or Pep wouldn’t find a way to work in a player like Greenwood then we are watching different sports.,

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

3-5-2 can be a 3-4-1 2 , 3-4-2-1 and 3-4-3. We have enough variations to use our many attackers as we see fit

 

[Leftback99]

Against the most out of form team in the league also. It's a bit concerning that people are actively upset we won a game though

Expected that part.

 

[sp_107]

Against well coached teams 352 can be very risky if we are not wel driled, Remember last year away game against RB Leipzig..They kiled us by exploiting the space they got at full back space

so to have proper 352 we need very disciplined Full Backs

 

[Zoo]

It won’t be sustainable to be dominated in possession every game. Just because we’re trying to be more compact and better defensively doesn’t mean we should have no control in our game. Chelsea manage it and that’s what we should be looking to do too. Fred and in particularly McTominay have received a lot of praise but I think they should do do more to help us control the play. Spurs we’re rubbish as well.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Well I do and that’s why I have and always wil hate Mourinho. I watch football for entertainment not just to pick up a tin pot at the end of the season. If we play good football and win that’s what matters. I know we can’t do that every week but lowering expectations on the quality of football we should play is part of the reason we are in this mess.

Yes it’s about balance and not just throwing every attacking player onto the pitch at once. But if you think for a moment that Klopp or Pep wouldn’t find a way to work in a player like Greenwood then we are watching different sports.,

In comparison to Mourinho, Ole's style is much more entertaining so that's the gaps between our argument. With Ole, we produced lot of goals at least. There should be much more different level/degree into it, it should not be just two things either entertaining or not entertaining.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

He was clearly signed without Ronaldo in mind. We signed Ronaldo on a whim because we felt we had to and now we’re trying to figure out what happens next.

But he spent 20m on Diallo, preferred to play Pogba on the left, and kept Lingard. Without including Ronaldo, we are already stacked in the attacking option.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

In comparison to Mourinho, Ole's style is much more entertaining so that's the gaps between our argument. With Ole, we produced lot of goals at least. There should be much more different level/degree into it, it should not be just two things either entertaining or not entertaining.

Yeh agreed on that point. I have defended that point for years however I have also been saying for years that unless Ole can gain more control over games (possession, zones etc) then we will never make that final step as a side and we will never fully see the ability of some of our players. I have held out hope that with better players Ole could get the team to control/dominate a little more but instead hes just made us more unbalanced and lose even more control.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

It won’t be sustainable to be dominated in possession every game. Just because we’re trying to be more compact and better defensively doesn’t mean we should have no control in our game. Chelsea manage it and that’s what we should be looking to do too. Fred and in particularly McTominay have received a lot of praise but I think they should do do more to help us control the play. Spurs we’re rubbish as well.

It can be modified, you add Pogba in for one of the midfielders and he's still protected and can play a bit more like an #8 like how McTominay did. I would say play Donny there but that's never going to happen.

 

[NZT-One]

3-5-2 can be a 3-4-1 2 , 3-4-2-1 and 3-4-3. We have enough variations to use our many attackers as we see fit

Based on that, 3-5-2 is the same as 4-1-2-1-2 or 4-2-2-2 or 4-4-2 or 3-1-4-1-1. It is always 10 players, isn't it?
Obviously there is no industry standard how a certain formation has to be played to avoid the Fifa police giving you a fine but there are differences in the intepretation of certain formations. 3-5-2 is different to a 5-2-1-2 (like us yesterday) because the first has wingbacks who spent just as much emphasis of their game in attack while the latter solidifies its defense by adding fullbacks. Yesterday Shaw and AWB played exactly like they did against Liverpool as Fullbacks. A 3-4-1-2 is also different to a 3-4-3 as the latter usually makes some use of two inside forwards (with either wide or narrow starting positions) next to one traditional striker or something like a false-9 while the first formation employs 2 traditional strikers backed by a classic playmaker.

Against well coached teams 352 can be very risky if we are not wel driled, Remember last year away game against RB Leipzig..They kiled us by exploiting the space they got at full back space

so to have proper 352 we need very disciplined Full Backs

No.
A 3-5-2 doesn't have fullbacks at all. If it has, it is a 5-3-2 because fullbacks are defenders first while wingbacks are attackers and defenders to the exact same degree.

And against a well coached team you can fail and succeed with every formation. If the formation would be deciding factor in that, any team would play the same way. But it isn't - the formation is more a symptom than a motive (in my philisophical stance) that follows the plan I have in attack and defense while making the best use of the players I have at my disposal.