Leaving your country if you think things are going down a dark path, or you are genuinely afraid for what might happen to you, is a common thing that plenty of people do.
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2024 U.S. Elections | Trump wins
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
Leaving your country if you think things are going down a dark path, or you are genuinely afraid for what might happen to you, is a common thing that plenty of people do.
Of course you are. Any random American is the one who probably cannot move to another country due to life issues. I'd go as far to say that most American posters in here would have difficulties in doing so.
In the modern Western world? I'm not so sure.
And my point was that you prescribe an extremely simplistic solution that will be impossible for the vast majority of people affected by an issue they have little to no control over. Just like little Ben Shapiro's "solution" to climate change.
Mike, I am not prescribing a solution. I am pointing out the fundamental tension, of acting like Trump is this grave threat, yet offering "voting" as the primary solution to this problem.
I am from Colombia. That is a country thats suffered from extrajudicial killings, political persecution, kidnappings, etc. When people face these dangers, they often leave. They don't "sell their home to Aquaman", they leave it behind because they're rather not die.
I am from Colombia. That is a country thats suffered from extrajudicial killings, political persecution, kidnappings, etc. When people face these dangers, they often leave. They don't "sell their home to Aquaman", they leave it behind because they're rather not die.
To be fair, I don't think most Americans who see Trump as a grave threat generally believe he is a direct threat to their lives. The grave threat comes from the policies he might implement taking away rights from women, migrants, Muslims, etc., and what it might imply for democracy going forward. Trumps threat to lives is much more subtle. Like others have pointed out it could be that a woman dies from an ectopic pregnancy that she is not allowed to abort. It could be emboldening white nationalists to resort to violence again. Those are very real, arguably "grave threats", but of course not as directly sinister as imprisoning policial opponents or having them killed. I can see that these might not seem all that serious for someone with your experience, but in the typical American frame of refence they are.
I also don't really see what people actually can do other than voting and getting as involved in the normal political process as they are able to. Anything more extreme is likely to just land them in jail and do no good. Fleeing the country is often impossible, and will also seem like giving up for many people that want to live in America - but a different America than Trump would deliver.
I don't think Trump's threats are not serious or trivial. I don't have certainty on the issue. But I don't agree with the idea that the Democratic Party and its supporters are the people who've perfectly figured out exactly how serious the threat is, and it just happens to align with their primary interests (funding campaigns and winning elections).
I used this example before: Liberal-friendly press was putting out stories about how Mike Johnson was an insurrectionist and a threat to democracy. Then a couple of weeks later, Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer show up at a 'March for Israel' rally holdings hands with Johnson.
I'm sorry, but he is either a threat to democracy or someone you hold hands with. He can't be both.
Israel/Gaza has brought these tensions to the forefront because you'll have an Arab American say "I'm not voting for Biden" and then they'll get accused of not understanding how serious the situation. Really? They don't understand it, but a person who isn't directly threatened by it and isn't part of those communities does?
I used this example before: Liberal-friendly press was putting out stories about how Mike Johnson was an insurrectionist and a threat to democracy. Then a couple of weeks later, Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer show up at a 'March for Israel' rally holdings hands with Johnson.
I'm sorry, but he is either a threat to democracy or someone you hold hands with. He can't be both.
Israel/Gaza has brought these tensions to the forefront because you'll have an Arab American say "I'm not voting for Biden" and then they'll get accused of not understanding how serious the situation. Really? They don't understand it, but a person who isn't directly threatened by it and isn't part of those communities does?
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Wow. The ignorance of how politics & governance works by some is astonishing.
I could not care less about funding campaigns and winning elections just for the sake of it. Elections have consequences, that’s why I usually care about them.
And, with Trump, democracy is at stake. No one needs to convince me of that. I have eyes and ears, and I have seen enough.
See, with Romney and McCain I had disagreements on policies. With Trump, it’s something at a totally different level. I wouldn’t crawl on broken glass to vote against Romney, but I would crawl on broken glass to vote this November, and I live in a very blue state.
My point is that it is a silly proposition that you make to show you don’t think Trump is dangerous. You are very mistaken.
Let me tell you a secret: there are ZERO alternatives. I don’t care if the Dems are not perfect - they are the only ones standing between the US and a far right extremist cult as per now.
Anything to justify shitting on the Dems just because they happen to disagree on some of their foreign policies
Also worth pointing out that the Democrats are very much not a monolith when it comes to foreign policy. Of course, Biden is the one you can vote for, and he is very much stuck in an 80's style Zionism mentality, but the only reasonable voices on the Palestine issue are also Democrats. You won't find it among the Republicans, that's for sure.
Why do folk always try to play down and belittle the opinions of their opponents? At least have the common courtesy to state their case clearly and appropriately - They happen to
You think circumstances dictate that this shouldn't be enough to stop them voting Democrat, I agree, but the least you can be is honest about their reasons.
Anecdotally, I've been watching a friend move from life long liberal Dem voter towards RFK style conspiracy enthusiast, to more recently, embracing Tucker/MAGA narratives on immigration.
The border issue and perception of illegals marauding around the country killing Americans (such as this past week in Georgia) is not an issue the Dems should take lightly in November. Whatever gains they think they might make on anger over Abortion restrictions, could just as likely be mitigated by the border issue.
Did illegal immigration figures materially decrease under Trump?
Did deportation of illegal immigrant figures materially increase?
They might have, I'm genuinely asking.
But if they didn't then can the Dems not bypass the question of morality on the issue and just drive it home that Trump did nothing to quell their concerns in any case?
Did deportation of illegal immigrant figures materially increase?
They might have, I'm genuinely asking.
But if they didn't then can the Dems not bypass the question of morality on the issue and just drive it home that Trump did nothing to quell their concerns in any case?
Generally, Trump's time was no different than Obama's, but Biden's years have seen a massive spike. Mind you these are just apprehensions, not people who managed sneak in by avoiding detection.
WI, PA, GA (or NV, AZ) will be enough without MI
Trump comes in and genocide continues.
Dems can nominate Hillary again and I'd still vote against Trump.
Trump comes in and genocide continues.
Fortunately, the fighting should be finished well before a potential second Trump term ever begins.
What do people think left mean? If anything the dems haven't moved left enough.
I wouldn't sleep on NC either, the state might end up surprising many.
Exactly right.
The US has a centre right party and a (an increasingly far) right party. McCarthysm still seems to be doing a number on them if they think the Dems have gone too far left
There's two factors at hand regarding illegal immigration. First of all with smartphones people are able to go down to the border and spend all day filming people crossing which they can instantly blast across social media in a way you could not do 20 years ago and even 10 years ago (when social media was more in its infancy as a political tool it didn't penetrate as much). The second factor is that it used to be a left-wing position embraced by unions to be pretty nativist regarding immigration because of the idea of job displacement and cheap workers being brought over. I think that's where your friend has got converted.
Yeah, that is just who Biden is, and he has been quite clear on that for a long time.
For what its worth, he came across rather clear and coherent, not a bad showing.
For what its worth, he came across rather clear and coherent, not a bad showing.
As someone who lives here I would advise people to keep sleeping.
Which is totally fair that that is his view, but then you can't ask people personally affected by these things to turn a blind eye just because Trump is worse.
How come? The state was really close last time, and the republicans in the state has done plenty since to piss people off further, as I'm sure you are well aware of.
The polls, while not good, aren't particulary worse than some other swing states, can get closer in the months ahead.
This is also going to be a gubernatorial election and our very popular Gov (a Demo who has support on both sides) is term limited out. This will be a chance for the GOP to add the Gov to their already super gerrymandered super majority of both houses (funny how a 50/50 state has one side with a supermajority....). My view is that the Dem's in this state are not feeling particularly motivated.
I contrast this with my old state of WI that has a phenomenal ground game (the WISDEMS are great) that worked their asses off to get back control of the Supreme Court, and now look at all the good stuff happening! Fair maps for the first time in decades and the wave of energy that will follow. In NC all we see is more losses. Even when we win (gaining a seat in the house to prevent a GOP SM in both houses) it gets stripped away by the rep turning out to be a Trojan horse who flipped parties after winning.
Well, dem candidate for governor is usually ahead in the polls so far, for what it is worth.
If GOP taking away people's rights don't motivate dems in your state, then I don't know what will.
If GOP taking away people's rights don't motivate dems in your state, then I don't know what will.
The earth as a whole would be a better place if the current lieutenant governor who is running for the higher office is kept from ascending to it. What an absolute cnut that cat is.
The best chance the Dem's have if Robinson winning the GOP nomination. His brand of insanity might help us sneak a Dem back into the Gov mansion. As for president, I just don't see it. Maybe in another decade or so, but not now.
But Biden only needs to shift his positions on one major thing and a bunch of more minor things, not literally every policy he has...
I'm honestly just baffled if you're genuinely trying to compare the damage to every aspect of American society and the world at large under Trump to the problems caused by the current president.
If you want to fix American democracy go for it, burn it down, start again, whatever. I don't think it's possible but do your best. Trump won't do anything to improve democracy though, very much the opposite in fact. This line of reasoning is utterly bonkers.
That's quite the euphemism for supporting genocide.
If the point we're at is that genocide is just a policy disagreement then we are truly fecked.
Nah, I meant the highest office in NC. My mistype.
Yeah, I know.... hence why I said Gov Mansion and not the White House
I am all over the place today.Yeah, I know.... hence why I said Gov Mansion and not the White House