2024 U.S. Elections | Trump wins

maniak said:
Thing is, people are calling folks who don't want to vote for biden all sorts of things. Stupid, naive, nihilists, don't care about democracy, etc. Is it really that crazy that someone doesn't want to vote for a man who is supporting genocide as I type these words?

If a country gets to a point where hundreds of millions will go out and vote for a genocidal leader because the other guy is even worse, then that's a finished country as a functional democracy.
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Because the alternative is worse. Much worse.

Biden will be domestically more of the same and he will continue to weaken the US position on the international scene, because he and his administration, just like many other western countries, are literally out of touch and can't/won't admit that it isn't a unipolar world under US rule anymore. It would still be nothing compared to another four years of Trump who will wreck havoc on the US and the world, imo. He's domestically looking for revenge and that Putin and Netanyahu are hoping for his election should tell you everything you need to know.

So pick your poison carefully.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Very solid post.

If I go any further on the Israel/Gaza conflict, I say a second Trump presidency would make matters worse because there would be no talks about scaling down military operations or protecting civilians. Heck, I dare to say that Trump would show no objection to Netanyahu's actions while using harsher language against Palestinians at home and over there. Trump and Netanyahu are the type of people who will cyclejerk themselves for the sake of staying in power and avoid prison time at any cost. Before the conflict, we have to remember that Netanyahu sparked months-long protests because of proposed reforms to limit the power of the supreme court in favor of the PM's office (or the parliament).

As for the home front, I don't think I need more examples of how that sick feck wants to be a dictator pissing on the Constitution for the sake of punishing anyone and anything he does not like. Just the blatant lack of respect he has shown towards Judge Engoron and AG Laetitia James in the last couple of days is very indicative of how he feels about laws, norms and decorum.
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Agreed with you and @Hamnat
It is no secret Netanyahu and his hardliners would much rather see Trump or any Republican hardliner back in the WH. Haley would probably be a dream for them as well. There is plenty of material out there to support that. Dont forget who moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem.

If people commenting living outside this country dont see that most Americans look at this as a choice for the future of the United States more than anything outside our borders (rightfully if I may add), then you don't understand America. How does it or does not benefit us is the only question when it comes to other countries. And fortunately or unfortunately - no prospective WH occupant in this climate will take a hard line against Israel. Rightfully or not, doing so is political suicide in this country.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
If I go any further on the Israel/Gaza conflict, I say a second Trump presidency would make matters worse because there would be no talks about scaling down military operations or protecting civilians.
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These "talks" are completely hollow. The administration is just giving the flimsiest cover possible because they know it looks bad politically, there is nothing of substance to it whatsoever.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
These "talks" are completely hollow. The administration is just giving the flimsiest cover possible because they know it looks bad politically, there is nothing of substance to it whatsoever.
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Speak for yourself when this administration is perhaps the best reason why 110 hostages have been returned so far.

You're too blinded by hatred and anger to even see facts straight, it's beyond pathetic. Also ask yourself why the Chinese can't even hold North Korea onto a leash; that's also about geopolitics.
 
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Mike Smalling said:
You are talking about Biden's approach to Gaza like it is somehow opposed to what it would have been or potentially will be under Trump. If anything Trump probably would have been worse, spurred on by the far right pro-Israeli types that he would be surrounded with. If you are de-selecting Biden because he is pro-Israel, then the implication is that the only alternative will be better - which I don't believe will be the case.
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Most people in the real world do not vote for, or assess candidates, simply on who is "better" or who is the "lesser of two evils". For most people the candidate must also pass some basic threshold of acceptability. This is how a person might decide it's not worth voting for Biden, or he is "the same" as Trump: he does not cross the threshold.

There is an argument that your threshold might be 'cynical', if your red line is something relatively small like student loans. But I don't think that argument can be credibly made about what's happening in Gaza.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Speak for yourself when this administration is perhaps the best reason why 110 hostages have been returned so far.
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I assumed you meant Palestinian civilians, not Israelis.

The death rate of Palestinians is largely unchanged since the beginning, and increased after the brief pause in hostilities to release hostages. That is a fact. Between that one and the administration repeatedly claiming that there are no red lines, and going so far as to bypass congress to continue arming Israel, it is easy to infer that no, they do not care one bit about Palestinian civilians.
 
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Redplane said:
If people commenting living outside this country dont see that most Americans look at this as a choice for the future of the United States more than anything outside our borders (rightfully if I may add), then you don't understand America. How does it or does not benefit us is the only question when it comes to other countries.
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I don't think most Americans see this as a choice for the future of the United States. In fact most polling shows that the primary issue that concerns Americans right now is inflation.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Most people in the real world do not vote for, or assess candidates, simply on who is "better" or who is the "lesser of two evils". For most people the candidate must also pass some basic threshold of acceptability. This is how a person might decide it's not worth voting for Biden, or he is "the same" as Trump: he does not cross the threshold.

There is an argument that your threshold might be 'cynical', if your red line is something relatively small like student loans. But I don't think that argument can be credibly made about what's happening in Gaza.
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Well, maybe they should - and I think you are taking some liberties here by speaking for “most people”.

I will put it this way then. If someone is a single issue voter in the 2024 presidential election (that issue being Gaza), I can maybe understand not voting for either candidate, assuming they are Trump and Biden. However if that voter is also interested in issues like climate change, healthcare, reproductive rights, democracy, etc. then they would be shooting themself in the dick by not voting for Biden out of dissatisfaction with his handling of the Gaza conflict.

That’s my opinion, and I’m (probably) done stating it now.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Well, maybe they should - and I think you are taking some liberties here by speaking for “most people”.

I will put it this way then. If someone is a single issue voter in the 2024 presidential election (that issue being Gaza), I can maybe understand not voting for either candidate, assuming they are Trump and Biden. However if that voter is also interested in issues like climate change, healthcare, reproductive rights, democracy, etc. then they would be shooting themself in the dick by not voting for Biden out of dissatisfaction with his handling of the Gaza conflict.

That’s my opinion, and I’m (probably) done stating it now.
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To be honest, I just put him on ignore. He's a total waste of my time.

Whatever will happen in that 2024 election will also have a direct impact on my side of the border. The last thing I want is to see the Canadian far-right being emboldened by whatever stupidity would come out of a second Trump presidency, especially with that four-eyed shorty leading the tories by being a mini-Trump with the same disdain for democratic institutions. I already had my share of stupid shit during the Stephen Harper years as that government tried to be like Bush's GOP or worse.
 
The fact anyone would extrapolate the US response to the Israel/Gaza escalation into calling Biden a 'genocidal leader' kind of calls into question the point in trying to speak with them. The amount of geopolitical and US political realities you have to ignore to get to that stage is kind of staggering. It also essentially forces literally every other president/prime minister to join Biden in the genocidal leader camp. I mean, what has Xi done lately for Gaza? Macron's got nothing but words. What's Sunak up to? At least Putin's helping the Iranians, so I guess that's nice.

While I don't support the proposed measures to rearm Israel at all, I also maintain that Netanyahu gonna Netanyahu, and has forced this administration into a political nightmare. Blinken basically lives in the middle east right now trying to curtail Netanyahu, but Israel is and will always be absolutely crucial to the west's interest in the region so it's not an straight-forward equation. Couple that with the domestic politics of it - in an election year - and it's incredibly difficult.

Finally, this whole argument is stupid in the context of Trump. As a US voter, even a single-issue Gaza voter, you have three options: vote Biden / vote Trump (helps Trump) / do not vote (helps Trump). Two of those move towards a world where Trump's zionist golf buddy is appointed US ambassador in the region and Jared Kushner is sent over to mediate.

To the ethical argument: voting should never be deontological. The point of voting is to impact the outcome of an election. Making a great moral stand might feel good, but if it means you f*ck your neighbours, family and friends so you can stand on a self-righteous pillar I just view that as selfish.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
To be honest, I just put him on ignore. He's a total waste of my time.

Whatever will happen in that 2024 election will also have a direct impact on my side of the border. The last thing I want is to see the Canadian far-right being emboldened by whatever stupidity would come out of a second Trump presidency, especially with that four-eyed shorty leading the tories by being a mini-Trump with the same disdain for democratic institutions. I already had my share of stupid shit during the Stephen Harper years as that government tried to be like Bush's GOP or worse.
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Aye, it will have a direct impact a lot of places. Just the other day the Norwegian Minister of Foreign Affairs said that the Government are preparing for a second Trump presidency. We basically have Putin next door up here!
 
The last pages are just this tweet:
F-2GdlWaUAAFMUL
 
Beachryan said:
The fact anyone would extrapolate the US response to the Israel/Gaza escalation into calling Biden a 'genocidal leader' kind of calls into question the point in trying to speak with them. The amount of geopolitical and US political realities you have to ignore to get to that stage is kind of staggering. It also essentially forces literally every other president/prime minister to join Biden in the genocidal leader camp. I mean, what has Xi done lately for Gaza? Macron's got nothing but words. What's Sunak up to? At least Putin's helping the Iranians, so I guess that's nice.

While I don't support the proposed measures to rearm Israel at all, I also maintain that Netanyahu gonna Netanyahu, and has forced this administration into a political nightmare. Blinken basically lives in the middle east right now trying to curtail Netanyahu, but Israel is and will always be absolutely crucial to the west's interest in the region so it's not an straight-forward equation. Couple that with the domestic politics of it - in an election year - and it's incredibly difficult.

Finally, this whole argument is stupid in the context of Trump. As a US voter, even a single-issue Gaza voter, you have three options: vote Biden / vote Trump (helps Trump) / do not vote (helps Trump). Two of those move towards a world where Trump's zionist golf buddy is appointed US ambassador in the region and Jared Kushner is sent over to mediate.

To the ethical argument: voting should never be deontological. The point of voting is to impact the outcome of an election. Making a great moral stand might feel good, but if it means you f*ck your neighbours, family and friends so you can stand on a self-righteous pillar I just view that as selfish.
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You basically proved your point. Congratulations.
 
It's unfortunate that the October 7th attacks and subsequent Israel/Gaza war happened. Israel/Palestine is an issue where Biden and Democrats are not good relative to their base, and is a difficult situation to maneuver. It is also an external issue beyond the administration's control; all they can do is react to it.

We would all have been better off if this hadn't happened. But it happened, and some people are justifiably mad.

That is what happens when you do things that people disagree with politically, they get mad at you.

To get mad at voters for this is as productive as getting mad at the sun for rising every morning.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The last pages are just this tweet:
F-2GdlWaUAAFMUL
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Your making the mistake of thinking the libs think what Biden is doing is in fact bad. They don’t see it as bad but as a regrettable necessity.

It only becomes fascism when Trump is doing it. Which is very stupid but well this is a empire which installs McDonald’s restaurant on it’s own torture island.
 
I’m not happy about the Biden policy towards Israel-Palestine. I’m heartbroken to see the suffering and killing in Gaza, and this has to stop. It has stop now!

However, in November iI need to choose between Biden and most likely Trump. I would never ever EVER choose Trump. I despise Cruz, Rubio, DeSantis, etc. but if I were a Republican I would choose them over Trump. Imagine now me being a registered Democrat. Now way that I would cast my vote for this guy.

As long as Trump is a presidential candidate, we have one choice and one choice alone: Joseph R. Biden Jr.
 
What about Donald Trump makes anyone seriously think that US policy towards Israel will become more tenable for themselves under him than it is currently?
 
Sweet Square said:
It’s very normal to say this less than 24 hours after Biden bypassed congress to bomb another national state.
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50 USC §1541 - §1550 grant the President certain powers to initiate a military action, and require a report to be made to Congress within 48 hours in accordance to the War Powers Act of 1973. In that same vein, troops can remain for a maximum of 60 days without declaring war.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1541
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1550

I'm not an American and yet I know where to dig. News of the first strike came at 6:42 PM Eastern on Thursday, and thus the administration still has 38 hours and a few minutes left to publish that report.
 
You're not allowed to think that what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Biden has not handled it well, and still advocate voting for him over Trump. Then you're just a genocide enabling libtard.
 
Mike Smalling said:
You're not allowed to think that what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Biden has not handled it well, and still advocate voting for him over Trump. Then you're just a genocide enabling libtard.
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The accelerationists don't care. This time they won't come for the socialist. It'll be different this time. The revolutionary vanguard of twitter will keep Trump in check.
 
The talk in here reminds me of a friend, pro Russian one and by large, who said something in the linfe of - Trump didnt start any war. In the sense Biden started the Russian agression by installing fascist regime in Ukraine and so on.
 
The point of the 99% Hitler thing isn't that Biden is 99% as bad as Trump.

The point is that people do not just vote for the 'better' candidate. They want the candidate to cross a minimum threshold of acceptability. The idea of voting for 99% Hitler over 100% Hitler would be unacceptable to most people. But so would 90% Hitler. Or 50% Hitler. Any amount of Hitler is unacceptable to someone. Because it's Hitler.

The origin of this discussion was the question "why won't people vote for Biden if he's better than Trump." The answer is that being better than the other candidate only covers part of the vote. The other part is whether the candidate is acceptable. Almost everyone has criteria for what is acceptable even if they've never thought about it. But we all know "not being Hitler" is in there somewhere. Hopefully.

If there are people who won't vote for Biden over Israel/Gaza it's most likely that they think his administration's policies there are unacceptable.
 
99% Hitler, 80% Hitler. What sort of discussion is this? Are you all 13?
 
Have you guys heard about Godwin's law? Just curious.

People vote for a myriad of reasons. My impression is that single issue voters are a small group, and therefore single Gaza issue voters are even more of a niche. However, both notions that A) a Trump leadership who actually put the US embassy in Jerusalem would be better and B) what this administration has done regarding the middle East is any different than what 9 out of 10 US administration (Dem or GOP) had and would have done, have little support on actual evidence. Pretty much like the efforts to paint the current US president as a "genocidal leader" by some in here.
 
Beachryan said:
The fact anyone would extrapolate the US response to the Israel/Gaza escalation into calling Biden a 'genocidal leader' kind of calls into question the point in trying to speak with them. The amount of geopolitical and US political realities you have to ignore to get to that stage is kind of staggering. It also essentially forces literally every other president/prime minister to join Biden in the genocidal leader camp. I mean, what has Xi done lately for Gaza? Macron's got nothing but words. What's Sunak up to? At least Putin's helping the Iranians, so I guess that's nice.

While I don't support the proposed measures to rearm Israel at all, I also maintain that Netanyahu gonna Netanyahu, and has forced this administration into a political nightmare. Blinken basically lives in the middle east right now trying to curtail Netanyahu, but Israel is and will always be absolutely crucial to the west's interest in the region so it's not an straight-forward equation. Couple that with the domestic politics of it - in an election year - and it's incredibly difficult.

Finally, this whole argument is stupid in the context of Trump. As a US voter, even a single-issue Gaza voter, you have three options: vote Biden / vote Trump (helps Trump) / do not vote (helps Trump). Two of those move towards a world where Trump's zionist golf buddy is appointed US ambassador in the region and Jared Kushner is sent over to mediate.

To the ethical argument: voting should never be deontological. The point of voting is to impact the outcome of an election. Making a great moral stand might feel good, but if it means you f*ck your neighbours, family and friends so you can stand on a self-righteous pillar I just view that as selfish.
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In 2020 we had posters here claiming Biden was a paedophile and a rapist while ignoring Trumps well documented incidents of sexual assault.
This time around Biden is apparently murdering thousands of people so Trump's authoritarian rhetoric, threats of political violence and multiple indictments shouldn't be considered. The nuances of local, national and global politics is alien to them.
 
I think this image from reddit is quite symptomatic of why the polls are the way they are and it is not to do with Israel-Palestine because he was doing poorly before then.


hXQun4G.png


To be clear the US is sending some cash to Ukraine to keep the government functioning (something that is quite normal from allied nations). But it's significantly less than the total package which in turn is a fraction of total spending.

People see the headline that the US is sending billions to Ukraine when the billions represents money already spent a long time ago on weapons that the Ukrainians need to defend themselves. If you want the US to stop aid to Ukraine because you don't like Ukraine you should just make that case instead of hiding behind weaselly arguments that instead of spending on schools or infrastructure or health for Americans it is going overseas. There are people on the right and left who are in tune enough to politics that they know it's dishonest to act like that is the case but still say it. The majority of people I believe are like this OP who just did not know that a trillion dollar infrastructure bill was signed into law. Joe Biden's biggest problem is he cannot break through with things he has done that poll popularly when people find out he did it. I think that's the biggest drawback of his age that he cannot campaign vigorously. And obviously infrastructure can't get improved and rebuilt overnight and there are necessary regulations but permitting rules on a local level and stuff like NIMBYism is common when it comes to building new housing.
 
Biden’s biggest problem is that the media keeps looking at the negative, and even good numbers are presented in a negative manner. The infrastructure bill was passed more than two years ago. No one talks about it anymore. Instead, it’s his age, the GOP primary and Trump’s legal battles.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I don't think most Americans see this as a choice for the future of the United States. In fact most polling shows that the primary issue that concerns Americans right now is inflation.
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Which I include in issues perceive to be about the future of this country. I wasnt just talking about the state of democracy or ideological beliefs about society. Most people dont care about inflation elsewhere and see it as a strictly American thing.
 
ManUtd1999 said:
Biden’s biggest problem is that the media keeps looking at the negative, and even good numbers are presented in a negative manner. The infrastructure bill was passed more than two years ago. No one talks about it anymore. Instead, it’s his age, the GOP primary and Trump’s legal battles.
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He’s going to struggle avoiding being perceived as “too old”. His only advantage is that he happens to be running against Trump and all his baggage, although this time Trump can actually run more as an outsider similar to 2016.
 
His age problem is never going to go away if he doesn't pick up the pace campaigning strongly. He can bring that infrastructure bill back into the news by going to places where work has begun and improvements have been made. There's a lot of tangential elements to that for example if there is a new bridge being built or rebuilt, it benefits blue collar workers being hired to do the construction and production of the material needed, it benefits businesses who with a higher weight capacity can transport goods faster and more efficient and of course it benefits the everyday person going about their day. You can make the point that Trump never did a thing about infrastructure too. I think Obama or a younger president would have hit the road a long time ago to attach himself to these projects. I don't think his age is such a problem that he has to be kept out of sight from the public eye as he gives speeches regularly still but there's a difference between doing something formal at the WH or one local event in a week versus three or four different events in a single day. The Obama re-election was one I followed closely and it was almost pitch-perfect in how it worked in my view and ironically Biden was part of that and did a lot of the things I am advocating him to do now. That he isn't doing it tells me he isn't up to it anymore and his best hope is that Trump is the opposition.
 
Boycott said:
Joe Biden's biggest problem is he cannot break through with things he has done that poll popularly when people find out he did it. I think that's the biggest drawback of his age that he cannot campaign vigorously. And obviously infrastructure can't get improved and rebuilt overnight and there are necessary regulations but permitting rules on a local level and stuff like NIMBYism is common when it comes to building new housing.
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I would add to his list of problems that people perceive the inflation to be a Biden problem, when really it's not something he can do all that much about. It's one of the dumbest things about American politics - the sitting President gets blamed for every bad thing that happens during his term.

In terms of being able to campaign and get his message across, it certaintly doesn't help that his VP is not exactly miss popular herself. He will need strong support from surrogates, when the time comes. But who? The Clintons are clearly out, given the Epstein thing and Hillary's general popularity, and I'm not sure there are people in his administration that he can wheel out. Maybe Obama, Bernie and AOC can drum up some excitement - I imagine it's going to be a turn-out game again.
 
Mike Smalling said:
I would add to his list of problems that people perceive the inflation to be a Biden problem, when really it's not something he can do all that much about. It's one of the dumbest things about American politics - the sitting President gets blamed for every bad thing that happens during his term.

In terms of being able to campaign and get his message across, it certaintly doesn't help that his VP is not exactly miss popular herself. He will need strong support from surrogates, when the time comes. But who? The Clintons are clearly out, given the Epstein thing and Hillary's general popularity, and I'm not sure there are people in his administration that he can wheel out. Maybe Obama, Bernie and AOC can drum up some excitement - I imagine it's going to be a turn-out game again.
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He will indeed get blamed for inflation, but to his credit, it has largely subsided over the past year, which if you couple that with a dramatic reduction in the price of fuel/petrol will work in his favor. What will work against him as a sitting President is the cost of living in terms of both housing and groceries, which are two things that tend to animate voters (hence, "its the economy stupid").
 
Mike Smalling said:
I would add to his list of problems that people perceive the inflation to be a Biden problem, when really it's not something he can do all that much about. It's one of the dumbest things about American politics - the sitting President gets blamed for every bad thing that happens during his term.

In terms of being able to campaign and get his message across, it certaintly doesn't help that his VP is not exactly miss popular herself. He will need strong support from surrogates, when the time comes. But who? The Clintons are clearly out, given the Epstein thing and Hillary's general popularity, and I'm not sure there are people in his administration that he can wheel out. Maybe Obama, Bernie and AOC can drum up some excitement - I imagine it's going to be a turn-out game again.
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There was a chart recently showing that Biden's economic approval rating is at Jimmy Carter 1979-80 double digit inflation level. Even though it also showed presidents with the same fundamental metrics on inflation, employment, economic growth etc as Biden had positive ratings. I think that area is something out of his control in these two aspects: 1) there was more crossover from people in the past who may not vote for you but aren't so entrenched in opposition that they go from saying the economy was great to the absolute pits by virtue of a change in president and 2) many of these surveys show people say their own financial situation is getting better while they say the economy is getting worse. This is going to probably be a permanent change in how polling works in politics. I have some theories about it and one of them is the impact of social media spreading this idea that the old days like the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s was some glorious prosperous era (when as referred to above the 70s economy coined the term Stagflation) and before then the US society was divided by segregation so even if you see pictures of the nuclear family in a big house living off of one income, many big government programs excluded millions of people. But also Biden has failed to get key campaign issues like minimum wage passed which will hurt him in re-election and that was something he could have effected.

As for surrogates I don't think it will matter. He has to be his own messenger. Obama had Bill Clinton in 2012 give an outstanding speech at the convention that overshadowed Obama himself but ultimately you're the president and have to reach the people yourself.
 
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