Kerry?
2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
- Status
These polls mean jack shit right now. We'll start to get a better picture once people declare their candidature and start campaigning. After 6-9 months will be the time to look at these polls.
I completely disagree. Since the 1980s we have allowed the right-wing to dictate and redefine terms as they see fit to suit their propaganda. They have mislead and misinformed generations on incorrect and anti-intellectual definitions of liberal, welfare, any term with social in it, patriotism,
By consistently conceding ground on terminology and cowering from using any term that the right tries to incorrectly redefine, the progressives unintentionally accept and reinforce the cognitive frame that the right wants - the implication that liberal, welfare, etc are all dirty, bad words and only the right can determine what is patriotic and what isn't. Its been a trap that the Democrats have been falling into hook, line and sinker.
The worst possible thing the Dems can keep doing is running away from defining themselves and allowing conservatives to define their terms for the masses. Running away from calling himself is the exact wrong strategy. Beto runs away from that label and I'll bet money on him getting his ass kicked by Trump.
Its time to stop allowing the right wing to determine all terms of debate and discourse and redefine terms as they see fit. Biggest mistake of Democrats was allowing the far right to turn liberal into a dirty word. Can't keep falling into that Rush-Hannity trap. Any Dem that is afraid to call themselves progressive will likely lose my vote.
I somehow doubt that will be among the top 20 issues if he faces Trump. Ultimately these are pointless labels used by pundits and politicos to brand people into one camp or the other, which will happen anyway irrespective of whether or not the politicians in question embrace or ignore the labels.
Love Brennan. What he says from 4:50 on is so true regarding Trump & the next election.
Its not an issue, its a tone and a strategy. Any Dem campaign that tries to run on centrist or establishment framing is going to get its ass kicked.
.
Do Dems still run under either of those labels ? Even Hillary rather farcically, referred to herself as a progressive during a debate with Sanders. It didn't work for her, nor has it worked for Warren who has also attempted to self-identify as a progressive.
exactly. these people cant even make the most basic motions toward anyone on the left and then cry for decades when the left doesnt vote for them
Its not a label you "run under" but rather the communications strategy of how candidates and politicians frame issues and debates.
Doesn't matter how you label yourself, what matters are the cognitive frames invoked by the orator and how that connects to the audience's pre- established emotional dispositions. The successful candidate doesn't convince people to think like the candidate but rather taps into the beliefs the audience already holds and frames their policies as already appealing to those beliefs.
Here is what I mean by communications strategy of framing from a Luntz training manual:
Tbf, Sanders at this point seems to have been cryogenically frozen. Watched a Stewart clip with him in it circa 2004 or so and he looked no different.
Sanders is like Yoda.
The Force is with him.
The Force is with him.
Who’s this Beto fella and why is he the flavour of the month for progressives?
Researched him briefly and he just comes across as a youngish, handsome Dem with inoffensice views that aren’t batshit insane or overly pandering to corporate types. Is that all it takes to get the progs excited?
Researched him briefly and he just comes across as a youngish, handsome Dem with inoffensice views that aren’t batshit insane or overly pandering to corporate types. Is that all it takes to get the progs excited?
The Dems are looking for other candidates who aren't nearly 80 years old and Beto seems to be the rising choice in that regard. Not sure where his politics truly are since he seems to be somewhere between prog and center on various issues and he has largely operated under the rader without much fan fare in congress until he decided to take on Lyin' Ted last year.
What a fecking fraud! Corporate Beto!
Beto getting milkshake ducked already?
Kind of Obama 2.0. A centrist masqueraded as a leftist who is good at talking and getting related with people. I would say that he is the best of the centrists, though would prefer someone who is more to the left (essentially Bernie).
He also came quite close to dethroning lying Ted from Senate in a deep red state like Texas. He is good to listen to, his policies are kind of alright but he will be more continuing the status quo rather than a true revolution in American politics.
He's actually more of a hybrid candidate who incorporates elements of both factions into his platform - he's generally people funded (despite a few blips here and there) and is amenable to a single payer or medicare for all system etc. He's certainly not a hard leftist nor is he your average run of the mill centrist - he's somewhere in the middle which is why he is likely to fare well if he runs since he can draw big numbers from both the base and independents - much like Sanders did last cycle.
Last edited:
You know when Beto is just another centrist.When CNN gives him the time of day.
Good point, although Sanders does appear regularly on Cuomo and Tapper's shows.
yeh but i dont think they lap him up like they do Beto. Its not about coming on and more so about just randomly talking about him.
Hes not a hyrbid though. Hes a centrist who can speak like someone on the left and convince people who dont follow this stuff as closely as the people who post here. I actually think he's the frontrunner now. The centrists are all lining up behind him and Beto can act the part enough to not alienate normal people like Hillary did and he doesn't have the baggage that Biden has.
I also think he will beat trump and spend 4-8 years accomplishing feckall while the planet cooks and millions die due to lack of healthcare, followed by a right wing backlash even worse than trump.
To be fair he was resolute on his commitment to universal healthcare/medicare for all in the debates despite direct criticism of socialism which is a much stronger stance than any of Obama, Biden, Harris and the rest took let alone people like the Clintons.
Also with his anti corporate PAC commitment he is much less on the take of special interests than most corporate Dems even if not completely free of it like Ocasio-Cortez. I think Raoul has it about it with Beto, I do think he is inherently more progressive than any of the Obama-Biden cluster let alone the Clinton 'third way' machine. Whether he is as progressive as Bernie probably not but I think he is still able to be pushed in that direction a lot more than people like Klobuchar and Brown.
I am actually a bit baffled by your greater support of Klobuchar, Brown and especially an East Coast patrician scion like Gillibrand none of whom I personally trust on progressive issues more than Beto.
He backed away from medicare for all and now talks about "access" to healthcare. He married the daughter of a billionaire. Hes never joined the progressive caucus. He voted for bank deregulation. He takes money from fossil fuel interests.
Hes not a progressive.
I dont suport Klobuchar, I just wouldn't rule out voting for her. I've said i would vote for veto against trump also.
Gillibrand is not a progressive but she feels the pressure from progressives and would be beholden to us and thus have to govern progressively.
Brown is probably best suited for vp.
I'll have to see more about the details here. Because while I 100% believe in single payer universal healthcare, I actually think "medicare for all" is not the right way to do it or frame it either the more I think and talk to others. The reason is because medicare is still an HMO system and HMO systems have inherently fecked up incentives irrespective of whether they are private or public plans.
No healthcare system should force patients to only be able to select from pre-determined pool of doctors. For the most efficient, fair and functional health care system it has to start with the most basic premise that every person should have the right to choose their own doctor first and foremost. The biggest fundamental flaw with Bernie's plan is that it allows "Patients will be able to choose a health care provider"
I don't want to choose a fecking "health care provider". I want to pick and choose my own doctors and then have the single payer insurance cover it. I worry that Bernie's system is going to provide universal HMO coverage for all when in fact what we really need is PPO coverage for all.
The biggest thing with universal healthcare is going to be the transition from the system we have to the single payer system. I personally think the most effective way to conduct this transition is through starting with all catastrophic, terminal, emergency room coverage and shifting that to single payer is the best starting point. Then add single payer negotiation for all drugs. I worry that Bernie's plan tries to do everything all at once and its not going as simple as he makes it.
So I'll have to see more how this plays out. If Beto backs away from a firm commitment to universal healthcare then that is a deal breaker for my support. The other thing completely missing from all the candidates is a team like JFK's brain trust. I want to see intellectuals not pollsters.
For the rest we can agree to disagree. I don't like Beto's special interest ties but I like Gillibrand, Klobuchar and Brown's even less. I really don't trust Gillibrand at all; everytime I hear her speak she sounds like a seasoned bullshit artist. I think she is thoroughly slimy, not genuine and firmly in the pockets of NYC old money as are most established NY/NJ Democrats. I trust her less than even Biden to do anything good.
Last edited:
Bernie have said many times that the plan allows you to pick your own doctor and that is what he means by choosing your own health care provider that is the doctors.
Also be very wary when a politician use the word access as it used to fool people rhetorically just like Ted Cruz used it on a health care debate on CNN with Bernie Sanders in 2017 . Access is a very vague word and technically in USA everyone has access to health care providers under the same terms also known as cash. Beto have definitely been consulting with a spin doctor on this since he is framing it in this term that can fool people into believing something he really isn´t saying at all.
You can't be a politician running for Senate in Texas and turn down donations from oil company executives.
You cant take money from oil company executives and call yourself a progressive.
And to be fair, he doesnt. But people still think he is.
The guy made a mistake and left Harris off his list.
That is doom for Bernie if another poll finds it; +2 instead of the usual +10/15. The change seems to be among Dem voters, with 21 unfavourable and only 60 positive.
- A divided 20 - 22 percent for California Sen. Kamala Harris, with 57 percent who haven't heard enough;
Even beats Sanders with young voters and independents. Acid test is if they stay like that when he opens his mouth and starts actually campaigning.
Also they did Clinton; 32-61 including 22-71 among independents.
- Status