2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

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Sky1981 said:
For me Americans are the face behind the make up.

Trump, Biden and any other potus are just the makeup.

Sometimes they make you look better, sometimes worse, but underlying it all the Americans behind the makeup arent exactly much different. Trump just shocked the world for once because he actually made you look much worse with make up on.

To be fair it's not down to the POTUS alone. American politics are built on lobby and wheeling and dealing in the white house. There's only so much a potus can do by himself if he doesnt at least have his party behind him, and we're not even talking about opposition. The current situation is not democracy, it's actually a very old and complicated deadlock with minor skirmish every 4 or 8 years without anyone actually winning.
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Only if the person putting on the makeup it Two-Face.

This is a country truly divided. It is a country full of amazing people doing extraordinary things. It is also a country full of people suffering and living day to day. I have had the privilege to travel abroad and I have not seen something like this in any other country. It is a toxic mixture of inequality mixed with American exceptionalism. It is a country where the poorest can view a con man who wants to strip everything important from them as a messiah as he is stripping it from them. 2020 is the last gasp for this country I fear. My god, the next 6 months, let alone the next 4 years.....
 
WI_Red said:
Only if the person putting on the makeup it Two-Face.

This is a country truly divided. It is a country full of amazing people doing extraordinary things. It is also a country full of people suffering and living day to day. I have had the privilege to travel abroad and I have not seen something like this in any other country. It is a toxic mixture of inequality mixed with American exceptionalism. It is a country where the poorest can view a con man who wants to strip everything important from them as a messiah as he is stripping it from them. 2020 is the last gasp for this country I fear. My god, the next 6 months, let alone the next 4 years.....
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Are you writing a novel we should know about? because this reads more like prose and nothing more. I find your outrage against me or other posters really baffling. Because none of what is being pointed out is radical or progressive or anything of that sort. Most of it is just common sense tbh. If liberals spent less time thinking of themselves as gatekeepers or saviors of democracy or even worse explaining how "real change" really works, we wouldn't be stuck debating endlessly about performative BS like voting and talk more about what voting has actually resulted in.
 
entropy said:
Are you writing a novel we should know about? because this reads more like prose and nothing more. I find your outrage against me or other posters really baffling. Because none of what is being pointed out is radical or progressive or anything of that sort. Most of it is just common sense tbh. If liberals spent less time thinking of themselves as gatekeepers or saviors of democracy or even worse explaining how "real change" really works, we wouldn't be stuck debating endlessly about performative BS like voting and talk more about what voting has actually resulted in.
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Fine, you win. Everyone who wants a progressive agenda should refuse to vote for president, or vote for a third candidate. Trump likely wins. Now what?

That is the reality you are advocating. Unless you have an answer to that question I think we are done as we disagree on the fundamentals of what reality is to each of us.
 
entropy said:
Yeah. We are all living it up over here. Watching innocent people get choked to death and treated like scum. All while getting yelled at for not voting for the guy who literally wrote these laws in action.
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So not going to answer? what in anything I have said makes you think that I:
1) think you or pretty much anyone is "living it up"
2) love watching people get choked to death and treated like scum
3) Give 2 shits about Biden as a candidate.

Lets follow the logic: You do not want to vote for a candidate like Biden. Therefore you can only believe that people who want similar things for America should not vote for Biden. Therefore Trump wins a second Term.

So answer the question. Now what?
 
I totally get the arguments on both sides here and am split between what is best.

@WI_Red is right in one sense that surely a vote for Biden is better than a vote for another term of Trump which would be disasterous not just for the US but for the entire world.

But clearly Trump has not yet been bad enough to scare people away from that style of politics, though I find that surprising. So the idea that @nimic puts forward about letting it burn I also get. Would another term of Trump feck things so badly that voters might start looking towards more progressive politics in a way that the vast majority just won't contemplate at the moment. Is it better to have another term of Trump, who lets face it is a complete idiot rather than a term of Biden then a switch back to the right, but this time with someone with the intelligence, organisation and strategy to really push a far right agenda?

It seems to me that Biden is just a sticking plaster at the moment, so really do we want things to get much much worse to finally push people towards the proper cure?
 
berbatrick said:
i live here, if trump gets a second term i wont get a visa for a postdoc after my phd gets over.
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Europe is kinda cool, go there.

Actually, recently decided that I am doing that too. Germany is it. I don’t necessarily think that US is so bad as you and other extreme lefties, but Europe is much better for my taste. Saying that, I ain’t excluding coming back here in the future.

Trump is gonna be awful for both students and high-skilled workers who come here. Suspending H1-B program was pure suicide (not for him, but for the US) while the conditions for J1 visas were pure evil (thankfully revoked for now). Considering that these things might/will affect you (and I assume most of your friends, considering that most graduate students are foreigners) I find it weird how you leave the perception that Trump and Biden are essentially the same.
 
Revan said:
Europe is kinda cool, go there.

Actually, recently decided that I am doing that too. Germany is it. I don’t necessarily think that US is so bad as you and other extreme lefties, but Europe is much better for my taste. Saying that, I ain’t excluding coming back here in the future.

Trump is gonna be awful for both students and high-skilled workers who come here. Suspending H1-B program was pure suicide (not for him, but for the US) while the conditions for J1 visas were pure evil (thankfully revoked for now). Considering that these things might/will affect you (and I assume most of your friends, considering that most graduate students are foreigners) I find it weird how you leave the perception that Trump and Biden are essentially the same.
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USA was the Mecca of education during the 80s-2000s among Indonesians, you're one tier ahead of the curve if you're graduated from there.

US (and probably UK and Germany but they're abit of an outlier since German isn't very popular language to learn)
Australia/NZ
Singapore
Malaysia/Taiwan/China (Usually the stigma is you can't afford Singapore hence you go here)
Big Cities in Indonesia

I don't think East Asian parents would be too eager to send their kids to US in the future.
 
The Boy said:
But clearly Trump has not yet been bad enough to scare people away from that style of politics, though I find that surprising.
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Americans are very conservative (even most of the supposed liberals), and mild Sanders-esque 'socialism' is seen as a massive change and risk (despite most of the rest of the developed world already having it). Biden won because the Democrats all started shitting themselves that putting up anyone except for Biden would be a risk and might give Trump a second term. Asking them to think beyond that to people like Biden actually causing the issues in the first place is too big an ask. Especially when probably more than half of Democrats kind of like centrist Democrats anyway.
 
Kentonio said:
Americans are very conservative (even most of the supposed liberals), and mild Sanders-esque 'socialism' is seen as a massive change and risk (despite most of the rest of the developed world already having it). Biden won because the Democrats all started shitting themselves that putting up anyone except for Biden would be a risk and might give Trump a second term. Asking them to think beyond that to people like Biden actually causing the issues in the first place is too big an ask. Especially when probably more than half of Democrats kind of like centrist Democrats anyway.
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I don't think conservative is the word, more like unenlightened yet.

In the grand scheme of history Americans only exist for 150 years while Europe has close to 2000 years. Europe in their first 1500 years would be a better comparison to current USA.
 
Sky1981 said:
I don't think conservative is the word, more like unenlightened yet.

In the grand scheme of history Americans only exist for 150 years while Europe has close to 2000 years. Europe in their first 1500 years would be a better comparison to current USA.
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I think they're inherently conservative and I think a huge part of that comes from the constitutional system. In Europe it's fairly rare for people to relate their founding principles to their current situation. Obviously as countries have often been around for much, much longer that's natural, but even so there's a cultural difference there. Americans reverence for a document written centuries ago (and the people who wrote it) creates a natural conservatism, every change that is suggested is held up against a lens of 'Is this what America is SUPPOSED to be?' whereas in most other places that question is usually 'Is this what we WANT to be?'.

It interests me because there's a theory that Ancient Greece was doomed to decline because its mythology was always based around the past being better than the future. The superhuman heroes, the gods walking the earth, everything was based around the idea of an early age of wonder and power which real people could never live upto. I see similarities with the America attitudes sometimes, there's this constant idealism of the founders, and of a Real America that is always some undefined period of the past. Personally I find it really unhealthy.
 
Kentonio said:
I see similarities with the America attitudes sometimes, there's this constant idealism of the founders, and of a Real America that is always some undefined period of the past. Personally I find it really unhealthy.
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I'm not sure this is uniquely American though, there's a whole generation of Brits that think that pluck and stiff upper lip won the second world war and that the UK was a better place in 50s than now.

But this is why I can't help but think the system needs to be truly broken before people can appreciate what they could have under a different set up.
 
The Boy said:
I'm not sure this is uniquely American though, there's a whole generation of Brits that think that pluck and stiff upper lip won the second world war and that the UK was a better place in 50s than now.

But this is why I can't help but think the system needs to be truly broken before people can appreciate what they could have under a different set up.
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Completely true re the UK, although that desire to return to the 50's state isn't as strong or as widespread. As for breaking up the system, yes in principle, but it does assume you'll have the opportunity to build something better afterwards, and that's a big question mark.
 
Kentonio said:
It interests me because there's a theory that Ancient Greece was doomed to decline because its mythology was always based around the past being better than the future. The superhuman heroes, the gods walking the earth, everything was based around the idea of an early age of wonder and power which real people could never live upto. I see similarities with the America attitudes sometimes, there's this constant idealism of the founders, and of a Real America that is always some undefined period of the past. Personally I find it really unhealthy.
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I find that really compelling, do you know where I can read more on it? I studied mythology at uni and that definitely fits into themes we learned, but never explicitly.

I'm of the firm opinion that this nostalgia culture is ruining our future. As much as he's problematic, give me an Elon Musk's vision over this fabled past anyway. Let's all work towards mining asteroids, solving climate change and increasing tech efficiencies.

Hopefully it's also a bit like populism: the easiest political strategy of the moment. In theory, we'll swing back the other way, and should expect some candidates focussed on how we can be better than ever soon.
 
It's not even nostalgia, it's worse than that. Nostalgia is something you've experienced yourself. This is just conservatism, with a strong dose of reactionary tendencies for the American right in particular. It's also, incidentally, a fundamental part of every fascist movement which has ever existed (the Italians had the Roman Empire, the Germans had the Holy Roman Empire, the Norwegians had the viking age and early middle ages, etc).
 
The Boy said:
It seems to me that Biden is just a sticking plaster at the moment, so really do we want things to get much much worse to finally push people towards the proper cure?
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I think the frustration I have is the vast majority of Americans don't support Trump, don't support the direction the country is heading and can't make their voices heard because of the US system of voting. And for those people, they want to improve things.

There is no means by which we can change the past. We cannot undo the laws rightly bashed on here passed in the 90's on criminal justice reform. We cannot undue wars and the damage they've done. We can raise awareness, we can point out the mistakes made and hope that we learn from them.

But the choice in November is binary, we get one or the other. No amount of hand-wringing will change that. Look at the direction of a Trump presidency, and think of 4 more years without the 1 backstop - need for re-election. It should scare you into action.

For those arguing Biden is a bandaid and insufficient to be a cure - fine, but the patient is going to be dead if you don't stem the bleeding. And that's all I see from the holier than thou progressives: they'd rather the patient die and cling to a hope that rebirth is the answer than work on treating the wound.
 
nimic said:
It's not even nostalgia, it's worse than that. Nostalgia is something you've experienced yourself. This is just conservatism, with a strong dose of reactionary tendencies for the American right in particular. It's also, incidentally, a fundamental part of every fascist movement which has ever existed (the Italians had the Roman Empire, the Germans had the Holy Roman Empire, the Norwegians had the viking age and early middle ages, etc).
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Yeah, of course, it is absolutely more sinister and calculated than I suggested.
 
Beachryan said:
I find that really compelling, do you know where I can read more on it? I studied mythology at uni and that definitely fits into themes we learned, but never explicitly.
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I wish I could remember. I read about it probably 20 years ago now, and I can't for the life of me remember where. It's always stuck with me though as a really fascinating idea.

Jealous that you got to study mythology btw, I'd have loved that!
 
Kentonio said:
I wish I could remember. I read about it probably 20 years ago now, and I can't for the life of me remember where. It's always stuck with me though as a really fascinating idea.

Jealous that you got to study mythology btw, I'd have loved that!
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Beauty of a US liberal arts education - main degree in Economics to be all serious, fun minor in Greek Mythology because...well why not!
 
Beachryan said:
Beauty of a US liberal arts education - main degree in Economics to be all serious, fun minor in Greek Mythology because...well why not!
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The US college system is really interesting, and feels a bit strange. Here, you would have to go out of your way to do courses as varied as Economics and Greek Mythology. When I studied history, I just studied history, and then later pedagogy (because it was a teaching degree). The only exception is in the first semester, when everyone has a course in philosophy and two other basic courses (usually one in writing).
 
WI_Red said:
And this is what I have been trying to say, but not as succinctly. I would only add that this only happens if we actually get to that decade as a functioning “democracy “.

I just can’t understand the burn it down crowd if they are Americans or live here. If they aren’t or don’t then I doubly don’t understand unless they have some sort of snuff fetish.
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Or they spend 10 posts criticizing your decision to vote for the only choice against trump and then say they would vote for Biden if they lived here. You are bang on. This is not the cycle for sanctimonious bullshit. All the trump supporters I know in my home country of Ireland love him but curiously wouldn't vote for him if he or someone like him ran there.
One party over here does everything possible to stop people voting, the other does everything possible to get people to vote but apparently they are the same. I could put the differences between both parties in that sentence all day but it would be pointless here. Better to keep that energy for someone with a dog in the fight.
 
GiddyUp said:
Or they spend 10 posts criticizing your decision to vote for the only choice against trump and then say they would vote for Biden if they lived here. You are bang on. This is not the cycle for sanctimonious bullshit. All the trump supporters I know in my home country of Ireland love him but curiously wouldn't vote for him if he or someone like him ran there.
One party over here does everything possible to stop people voting, the other does everything possible to get people to vote but apparently they are the same. I could put the differences between both parties in that sentence all day but it would be pointless here. Better to keep that energy for someone with a dog in the fight.
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You’re just taking the piss now. Nowhere is the dnc close to anything you just described. They literally pushed for Bloomberg as a viable option. I am all for brushing aside differences but not naive enough to ignore sheer incompetence of this magnitude. Only the democrats can make fun of trump for four years and then turn around to nominate someone who is senile.
 
entropy said:
You’re just taking the piss now. Nowhere is the dnc close to anything you just described. They literally pushed for Bloomberg as a viable option. I am all for brushing aside differences but not naive enough to ignore sheer incompetence of this magnitude. Only the democrats can make fun of trump for four years and then turn around to nominate someone who is senile.
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Sit down.
 
entropy said:
Atleast, be honest in your assessment of the party. You are being blatantly disingenuous.
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What did I say that was untrue? Are the Republicans trying to stifle the vote nationwide?
And how about you answer the question that everyone wants to know?
 
berbatrick said:
i live here, if trump gets a second term i wont get a visa for a postdoc after my phd gets over.
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I was supposed to move to the US for a masters. The political situation and now the visa issues, its a mess. Will probably look at Canada and UK now.
 
I don’t like Biden, but it’s him or Trump this November so my feelings on Biden will either have to be put aside, or I vote for Trump.
Someone earlier said that it’s a binary choice. It is imo.
 
Kentonio said:
I wish I could remember. I read about it probably 20 years ago now, and I can't for the life of me remember where. It's always stuck with me though as a really fascinating idea.

Jealous that you got to study mythology btw, I'd have loved that!
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Off-topic, and not meaning to offend - but as someone who worked in Ancient History and taught mythology 101 at university (to economics students and whoever else signed up :wenger: ), this sounds like a case of poor psychologizing to me. Mythology is stories, often streamlined in literature. It's not how people would have experienced religion in daily life; religious systems and mythologies are better viewed separately. Also, in the CE years, a lot of other religions gained popularity (including Christianity), and some cultic philosophies had a lot of adherents already before that. Plus the Romans and other peoples all over the ancient world (e.g., Persian, Assyrians, Babylonians) had very similar religious systems and mythologies. So there is no clear-cut or unique case for Ancient Greece. And while all these 'cultures' and states eventually indeed did decline, there are good socio-economic and political reasons for that. That's what governs the ebb an flow of history; I have yet to see a serious case for the idea of a kind of underlying philosophical mindset causing a gradual decline.
 
Back on topic:
Raoul said:
The progressive platform is still a work in progress in the US, and probably won’t have a realistic chance of turning into reality for another decade or so.
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From my perspective, I can see how the US has generally slowly 'progressed' in its social policies over time, like other OECD countries. But it's doing so more slowly, I'd say, then e.g. most European countries, and there is this very strong political polarization hindering further progress (and also causing its slower pace). So when you say that the progressive platform is a work in progress, how do you actually see it progressing? Cause I can't really see a path to much progress right now. I also don't think electing Biden is necessarily a step towards progression: things would move very slowly under him and similar presidents, and the DNC has no reason to move more quickly if they think candidates like Biden have the best chances of being elected. I'd love to think that the mindset of a majority of US voters is slowly shifting to the left, but outside progressives states (like on the Pacific coast and in the northeast), I just don't see it. So I'm curious what you think might be a viable way forward on this.

The Boy said:
But clearly Trump has not yet been bad enough to scare people away from that style of politics, though I find that surprising. So the idea that @nimic puts forward about letting it burn I also get. Would another term of Trump feck things so badly that voters might start looking towards more progressive politics in a way that the vast majority just won't contemplate at the moment. Is it better to have another term of Trump, who lets face it is a complete idiot rather than a term of Biden then a switch back to the right, but this time with someone with the intelligence, organisation and strategy to really push a far right agenda?
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My concern with this, is that 'letting it burn' will hit people at the 'bottom of society' very hard. Think of even greater inequality and poverty, worse access to services, and the resulting further decrease in life expectancy (which is already relatively low among OECD countries across all population groups in the US). So while that might be a way to really incite change, I think only people that are economically safe or live outside the US could seriously consider this option. It would be a terrible socio-economic experiment (since it's not even guaranteedprogressive change eventually would happen), so I'm sure that anyone already unemployed, impoverished, working a minimum-wage job etc. who has not been conned by the GOP would rather see Biden getting elected to have a chance of seeing slow improvements to their situation.
 
Bold strategy Bernie lets see if it pays off


what a ****
 
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berbatrick said:
this would have got defence spending all the way down to uhhh 2017 levels
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There's probably no better symbol of the state of the world than the US war-crime budget. Tells you all you need to know about what the leader of the free world prioritises.
 
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