i'm not convinced they have to be moderate
2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress
- Thread starter Raoul
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I’ve got nothing to add except that these are neoliberal talking points. All of which have already proven to be disastrous time and again over the last two decades. I will never understand how anyone can still make those arguments with a straight face. Let alone at a time when their party is actively going around recruiting racists and war criminals. If you’ve campaigned for someone on issues such as criminal justice reform, I don’t have to remind you that incremental politics is the reason why we have a broken system that seems beyond repair. Anyone who has posted anything critical about dems is always viewed as a trump supporter or Bernie bro or whatever BS talking point MSM has going around. This thread is no different.
Yep agree with that. Any old Republican will do.
Sit on your arse then.
And I don’t disagree with pretty much any of those points. What I do disagree with is the mentality that letting it all burn will give us what we want in the long term. Currently there are simply not enough people who are willing to vote for a progressive society. So what do i do? Do I stand by and enable a second term of Trump or vote for Biden to stop that from happening. Put it another way, if I had to choose between stage 3 colon cancer or skin cancer I know what I would choose. Both are horrible, both can eventually kill me, but one at least provides a decent prospect for recovery if it is treated in time.
Ultimately you need to do you.
the problem with this analogy is that the skin cancer always leads to, and is designed to lead to, colon cancer
Wrong. If left untreated it will likely kill you, but you still have a chance. Is Biden the cure? Hell no, he’s barely even an aspirin. The point is that in order for us to get to a real “doctor” who can treat the cancer in America we have to at least have a body to be treated. A second trump term may break us forever.
Maybe the US needs to be broken.
Most voters seem to see it this way, which is why Biden, despite never having aroused much voter enthusiasm in the past, is getting support from across the political spectrum from some progressives, a lot of independents, and some anti-Trump Republicans.
Be careful what you wish for. Trumps administration is out grabbing protesters on the street without even bothering to identify themselves. Since 2001 the Patriot Act has given presidents some terrifying powers. Put those things together and add an administration that doesn’t really care about constitutionality anyway, and you get the potential for something truly terrifying. Especially when you throw in nearly half the country who are currently just fine with what Trump is doing.
these powers were continuously expanded by the obama administration and the coalition that biden represents and will continue to be expanded by his administration, they also made use of these powers in the ferguson protests and made no attempts to stop local law enforcement from revenge killing numerous protestors
it's really frustrating to watch liberals accurately describe how america is deteriorating before endorsing the ghouls that have psychopathically sought to hold these powers and shown willingness to use them
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Yeah, I'd agree that Biden is no solution to anything. It's just that Trump is much worse, so I would also vote Biden if I were in the US.
I guess a possible analogy for the opposite viewpoint is the Brexit-supporting left in the UK. Their argument was that the EU is inherently neo-liberal, so if the UK ever wants to implement stronger social policies, it needs to get out of the EU. The problem with that approach is that the UK is generally right-of-centre right now (Labour is not very leftist at all), so there is no clear, short-term pathway at all to getting those more social policies going. Similarly, voting for Biden does not really present a pathway to someone who is more obviously left-of-centre, and getting him elected might only confirm to the Democratic Party that it pays off to have a candidate like Biden, and the ideas he brings along.
But then again, Trump's a total shitshow that will destroy the US. In a rigid two-party system, there's just no real choice.
I guess a possible analogy for the opposite viewpoint is the Brexit-supporting left in the UK. Their argument was that the EU is inherently neo-liberal, so if the UK ever wants to implement stronger social policies, it needs to get out of the EU. The problem with that approach is that the UK is generally right-of-centre right now (Labour is not very leftist at all), so there is no clear, short-term pathway at all to getting those more social policies going. Similarly, voting for Biden does not really present a pathway to someone who is more obviously left-of-centre, and getting him elected might only confirm to the Democratic Party that it pays off to have a candidate like Biden, and the ideas he brings along.
But then again, Trump's a total shitshow that will destroy the US. In a rigid two-party system, there's just no real choice.
True, but those things happened because of the state of the US. If it happened once, it could happen again, and again, and again. Trump probably won't win now, but there's no reason to think another authoritarian Trump-type won't pop up in four, eight or twelve years. At some point something has to give.
just incredible.
Seriously? Now you’re pissing me off.
What do you want? Not in you candy canes and lollipops fantasy world where us progressives can get everything we want right now. I mean what do you want in reality? You LITERALLY have two choices for president that matter. You have a Hitlerish authoritarian or a moderate conservative. Neither is even remotely left of center, but they are both left and right of absolute evil. If you see the future under both as the same then I don’t see how we have any constructive discussion. These are not “neoliberal” talking points, they are the world we live in. We don’t have the votes to get even Bernie Sanders as a candidate. Until we do all that can be done is make the choices that will let us get to the next cycle.
I agree with @Kentonio that we can not afford to let the house burn this cycle to prove a point. No one fukcing cares about that point. Hillary lost and the dems STILL pushed Biden. They. Don’t. Care.
The only thing that is “incredible” in all this is that you think letting Trump win re-election will somehow make getting a progressive America more likely.
Rasmussen as well....
Yep. Pretty much this.
You missed my point (or you're saying he did). I didn't suggest letting the house burn to prove a point, as some kind of hissy fit, I suggested letting it burn to burn it down.
And then what?
Do you have kids? Do you have nieces or nephews? Are you ready to let them live and grow up in a world where nameless federal agents grab people off streets? Where minorities are killed like animals? Where wealth distribution is all at the top? Etc. etc. etc.
Yes, I know I am describing our current world, so if that’s sounds fantastic to you, sure, let it burn. You think a second trump term (or a third) will see things get better?
But if you want it to burn just know that you are selfish. Selfish because you want to see change in your lifetime at the expense of our children. They will not thank you. They will curse you. We do not venerate the heroes of the past because of the sacrifices they placed on their children, but for the sacrifices they themselves made.
None of these things are new, and they won't stop with Biden or any democratic president.
And?
Give me a solution. I want change and I have spoken passionately about this all over the Newbie and general forums. Do you think a second trump term will advance the cause? Seriously, don’t just blah blah blah me, say something constructive. I KNOW Biden won’t fix all these problems, but I also know the only other choice will make them indescribably worse.
We live in a country where the majority of our fellow citizens do not want the society we (in this discussion) appear to want. We need to change that in order for it to become a reality, but we cannot change it if the country is burning.
I wasn't being entirely serious, but I do find it a bit funny the way you just described the bravery and sacrifice in what essentially amounts to maintaining the status quo. Very grandiose indeed.
And that makes what you said nonsensical.
"Are you ready to let them live and grow up in a world where nameless federal agents grab people off streets? Where minorities are killed like animals? Where wealth distribution is all at the top? Etc. etc. etc."
Every American grew up in that world. Every American growing up will grow up in that world. Every future American for the next foreseeable future will grow up in that world. So why are you asking if nimic is ready for that as if that would be a consequence of what they're proposing?
Ok not being serious, how do we get out of the cycle?
So a second trump term is cool with you? Got it.
No, why do you ask?
There's no "we", given that you are arguing with mostly non-Americans.
Because this is literally the 2020 US election thread and you were supporting someone who wants to let it burn.
So a better analogy would have been:
“So this annoying person you kinda know has cancer.....”
"Supporting" someone, jeez. Get over yourself. For someone who wants others to be more constructive, you're not exactly Bob the Builder yourself here.
No, I was taking issue with what you said. If you want to argue that people should vote for Biden that's absolutely fine, I would vote for him myself, but don't try to guilt people with things that Biden will do approximately just as much as Trump is doing.
Nameless federal agents will still pick up people on the streets under Biden, just like they've done forever, they just won't pick up regular people on camera in Portland. They'll go back to pick up the people that no one cares about. Minorities will keep getting killed, Biden won't do anything about that. Inequality will worsen. Biden will do some things different than Trump, and it'll be a little bit better for quite a few people, but things mostly won't change and the changes that do happen will be minor. That's your honest pitch.
Some of these things may happen under any U.S President, while others wouldn’t. If you take the totality of policy into consideration, Biden and Trump are night and day apart on most issues, which would likely result in significant changes from what Trump has been doing.
Does anybody see a way forward then? Let's assume things can actually get better in the US (e.g., increased wealth equity, better healthcare, proper protection of minorities rights) if a more leftist democrat gets elected. How is the US going to get there, if either Trump or Biden gets elected?
(I take @Raoul's point that there are a lot of non-Americans arguing here, and I am one of them. But I am right next door, I worry about this, think about it a lot - and I personally have no idea how the US can (a) get out of its current polarization, and then (b) get out of its hole of extreme neoliberalism.)
(I take @Raoul's point that there are a lot of non-Americans arguing here, and I am one of them. But I am right next door, I worry about this, think about it a lot - and I personally have no idea how the US can (a) get out of its current polarization, and then (b) get out of its hole of extreme neoliberalism.)
There wouldn’t be any systemic changes under any President imo, since the sort of policies Sanders has been promoting would require a lot more support in Congress - even among Democrats- to even have a realistic chance of reaching the President’s desk. Case in point, only 33% of Dem Senators support Medicare For All, and it would require 100% of Dem support to even stand a chance of getting out of the Senate. Rinse and repeat on other Sanders policies. The progressive platform is still a work in progress in the US, and probably won’t have a realistic chance of turning into reality for another decade or so.
And this is what I have been trying to say, but not as succinctly. I would only add that this only happens if we actually get to that decade as a functioning “democracy “.
I just can’t understand the burn it down crowd if they are Americans or live here. If they aren’t or don’t then I doubly don’t understand unless they have some sort of snuff fetish.
i live here, if trump gets a second term i wont get a visa for a postdoc after my phd gets over.
For me Americans are the face behind the make up.
Trump, Biden and any other potus are just the makeup.
Sometimes they make you look better, sometimes worse, but underlying it all the Americans behind the makeup arent exactly much different. Trump just shocked the world for once because he actually made you look much worse with make up on.
To be fair it's not down to the POTUS alone. American politics are built on lobby and wheeling and dealing in the white house. There's only so much a potus can do by himself if he doesnt at least have his party behind him, and we're not even talking about opposition. The current situation is not democracy, it's actually a very old and complicated deadlock with minor skirmish every 4 or 8 years without anyone actually winning.
out of curiosity, what are you doing your PhD in?
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