You're essentially giving half a vote to each of them.
2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress
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Same as Trump, Obama, Dubya, Bill Clinton. Its a fairly common practice among Presidents.
Hush-hush. Unity is bad.
yeah, unity with republicans is bad. you are laughable
you dont even believe in anything. why are you here? why do you post so much when you dont even care?
But refusing to vote a flawed Democrat, and so increasing the chances of the worst Republican becoming president for another 4 years is totally fine.
Don't know what you are arguing about. Voters are never wrong and they chose Biden in the primary. Unfortunate.
@Beachryan not sure how you claim to be serious about issues such as gaslighting and vehemently refuse to believe survivors of sexual assault.
Joe Biden Hints At Cabinet Officials...Republican Vice President?
So it could be a choice between Republicans and Republican lite.
So it could be a choice between Republicans and Republican lite.
Trump’s “liberate” tweets look like a strategic attempt at weakening Dem led states in the general elections. What we’re seeing in Michigan our Minnesota protests is an attempt to rile up the base against evil Democrats and create a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” kind of a scenario for the governors.
It’s a pretty clever strategy at the expense of human lives.
It’s a pretty clever strategy at the expense of human lives.
Chomsky looking well for 91!
I think a lot of the centrists riding on Chomsky and also progressives missed Chomsky's true point of view. Chomsky views voting for the lesser of two evils or abstaining for voting for the lesser of two evils (in regards to strategy) as much inferior to the idea that you gain power through numbers of activists applying pressure constantly. He's saying that voting for Biden is a necessary step, and that not voting for him isn't going to magically make Democrats listen to you if they lose. What is going to make them listen to you is increasing the number of progressives in politics. And in that case, it's not really them choosing to listen to you, it's more so forcefully taking the power from them.
If that's the case, what is the point in not voting for Biden? Although I won't shame victims of sexual abuse for not voting. It's impossible to blame them for this mess. In fact, even if progressives end up not voting for Biden, I would still rather blame the larger power group (corporate Dems) for the loss. They (mass media & corporate dem politicians) chose this awful candidate by convincing poor voters Biden is the best candidate.
Noam's take is adding more weight to the progressive movement than a simple centrist opinion of "actually it's a binary decision, vote for my team Blue."
If that's the case, what is the point in not voting for Biden? Although I won't shame victims of sexual abuse for not voting. It's impossible to blame them for this mess. In fact, even if progressives end up not voting for Biden, I would still rather blame the larger power group (corporate Dems) for the loss. They (mass media & corporate dem politicians) chose this awful candidate by convincing poor voters Biden is the best candidate.
Noam's take is adding more weight to the progressive movement than a simple centrist opinion of "actually it's a binary decision, vote for my team Blue."
Perhaps the problem was that there was too many candidates... The meme recognition of the two most established carried them through... But perhaps if there had only been a handful of viable candidates people would have coalesced around a beto or Kamala or somebody else earlier on (not that they would necessarily have been better... But at least they wouldn't be over 80 in a potential first term)
If the Dems win I guess whoever is VP will probably be the 2024 candidate (or even have become president mid term has to be a realistic possibility)...
If the Dems loose (and I think they will) then it will be AOC Vs the democratic establishment narrative (mayor Pete or Michelle obama or a new beto type candidate )
I have only skimmed the last few pages and see people giving others a hard time for not voting for Biden.
Quick question- do any of the posters who refuse to vote for Biden live in swing states?
Quick question- do any of the posters who refuse to vote for Biden live in swing states?
I wonder of the people who are yelling at others for saying they won't vote for Biden themselves have a line they won't cross. Or would they vote for Trump's candidate literally no matter who it is, and no matter what that candidate had said and done? If not, they probably shouldn't be so judgmental. If they would, then that just shows exactly how broken America is.
Chomsky in 2016
Chomsky has always been consistent in that regard. Both centrists and progressives finding his opinion on this subject to be some newfound thing are uneducated on him.
It's super annoying the centrists are using him in this manner, I agree. All they care about is treating their politicians as sports teams and being seen as the most moral of society despite having obvious spotty views.
It's super annoying the centrists are using him in this manner, I agree. All they care about is treating their politicians as sports teams and being seen as the most moral of society despite having obvious spotty views.
Going by last election stats, I'd say enough to make a difference in those states.
Just out of curiosity has any respected mainstream journalist covered the Biden allegation.
He hasn't been confronted directly (Bernie has about Joe's own allegation), and hasn't been covered by either CNN or MSNBC. Can't remember which. Took a while for NYT to cover it, and they proceeded to edit a comment because of how stupid a defense it sounded like.
You live in a swing state and are set on not voting for Biden?
For whatever it is or isn't worth... My advice to a disillusioned Bernie supporter in NYC would be to vote for who ever the hell they want, but if that same supporter was voting in Florida... do us all a favour and hold your nose and vote Biden.
That’s an odd take. It’s basically the opposite of what’s been going on in this discussion.
Cool. I see why knowledgable posters said to ignore you.
TheNY Times gave a journalist 3 weeks to research before their story, and Salon did an interview with Reade. I believe one other major paper but cant recall which one.
More context on the Chomsky interview - at 0500
Some people may not want to vote for war criminals
Says more about you tbh. Not sure why you’d say “I take these things seriously” and then go on to ignore survivors of sexual assault.
This is gaslighting by the msm sitting on the story and choosing to delay investigating it.
Everyone is asking for Bernie supporters to vote for "the lesser evil" no matter what. Has anyone asked "the lesser evil" to decrease their level of "evil" to maybe help bring in those voters? Of course even then not everyone of them will vote for Biden, actually not every one of Warren supporters will and neither Pete's. But at least try to bring in some progressive policies into your fold along with some proper progressives. For people saying Bernie supporters should keep their mouth shut and vote for Biden, it almost seems like Biden could be however bad he wants as long as he's not a bad as Trump.
That's basically it. They alter their policies and their candidates to appeal to Republicans and they offer the left nothing but brow beating. They just assume the left will come along because "there are only two options".
Why would anyone who wants real change vote for Biden? Biden is a semi-senile, almost 80 year old, privileged, corrupt career politician who in private (preferably at an Epstein party) would agree on all policies with Trump but happens to have made a career at the Democratic party so he can't infront of cameras. Rather vote for the original than a whitewashed version of it who pretends to be something that he is not.
The US is ruled by a select few oligarch familily clans anyway. After the Bushs and Clintons expect to see Michelle Obama and Ivanka fight it out in a few years. A lost country.
The US is ruled by a select few oligarch familily clans anyway. After the Bushs and Clintons expect to see Michelle Obama and Ivanka fight it out in a few years. A lost country.
There is no way you believe Biden is the same as Trump. Biden is awful and will still continue US imperialism, awful on crime, will back legislation his corporate donors give him, etc... but that's still better than Trump who is even further to the right on many issues. That's just a fact. Trump is more of a neoliberal than Biden. I'm not going to deny Biden isn't a right wing moderate (which can be labeled extremist if you know how anti-humanistic his career has been), but on issue after issue Trump is worse.
And I think Chomsky's point was based on a single premise. Chomsky believes real change and thus the only true strategy for leftists to take is to try to increase the number of activists so that political pressure can be put on politicians constantly, not one every 4 years. In other words, not voting for Biden is not going to bring power to the leftists/progressives as if there is legit leverage to be gained. The corporate Dems will do the same as it did after 2016. The mass media will be on the side of the most popular politician that keeps their power in tact. The corporate donors will continue to fund politicians who will do their bidding.
If you agree with this take then voting against Biden makes no sense. The only strategy to gain power is to try and build on the movement to get more leftists/progressives in government so that the Dems are forced to change, or to build a 3rd party (doubt this happens because of identity for those who only tune in every 4 years). If you do agree with this take, taking the lesser of two evils is enough of a reason to vote for Biden because it's independent of how leftists will gain power and thus it is better to have a better Judge, and a better starting point (legislation slightly left of Trump's) for leftists in government.
If you disagree with this premise, then your point of view is valid because you genuinely believe there is power to be won by forcing them to consider your views. I don't believe in the corporate Dems to that extent. I believe they would rather lose than to actually favor non-corporate politicians.
I'm not going to tell you what to do even though I agree with Chomsky. At the end of the day, the mass media, and corporate wing of the Dems persuaded a large amount of voters to vote for Biden. They've forced us into choosing between Rapists.
Progressives who don't vote will only make up a small % of the non-voter population (who the corporate Dems will never blame/shame). I'm willing to accept blame if proper weight is attributed to other non-progressive parties. I believe this is what Chomsky is doing, although I think many on the left are wrongly believing that Chomsky is somehow attributing the most amount of blame towards the left when he spoke of no such weight in his commentary.
@Florida Man lives in Florida and @Eboue lives in Michigan. Others are good, although @Carolina Red lives in Georgia and doesn't make a feckign difference lollerskates
The one thing I struggle to understand is that when people refuse to vote for Clinton last term, we were told to no end that voters can never be wrong and it's up to the Democratic party to put a candidate that's attractive for the voters. People have spoken resoundingly that Biden is the guy but suddenly voters can actually be wrong and persuaded by the Dems and the mass media?
It's well within anyone's right to not to vote for Biden because he's a rapist, and make a call that there's just no difference between the two parties. That is fine but the end result of that is you become persona non grata about how US politics is headed. Maybe it's morally the right choice to make but personally I think it's a crying shame and abdication of your duty. I don't think this 'let's burn it all to the ground and get the purist to win it from the ashes' is ever going to bear fruit. It'll just mean that the Republicans continue to be in power with the minority ruling the majority through bureaucracy and arcane laws to protect their power.
Let me quantify the rapist part, because, at the moment, it's allegations but Eboue makes a fair point that Kavanaugh was presumed guilty and it should be no different for Biden too. I do think the idealist left camp was much more eager to be forgiving about Keith Ellison's allegations, including Red Dreams from the idealist left camp from RedCafe but Eboue was quick to denounce him and he has been consistent in that regard.
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