2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

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Foxbatt said:
Then she should have gone to the police. Why does she have to tell a number of people? Just because it's convincing for you doesn't mean it happened. I don't know if it happened or not and neither do you. She should have gone to the police immediately and got a lawyer for herself. I am sure she would have got plenty of lawyers and even funding if it was against Biden.
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Do you really need it explaining to you why she might not have wanted to go to the police? What planet are you on where a woman is raped and her immediate response is to phone the police and a lawyer.

As for the Bernie camp voting for Biden debate, I don’t see why it is hard to understand both sides. Both are understandable to me. Personally I’d hold my nose and vote for Biden as the lesser evil; but make no mistake that he is an ‘evil’, and people could have a multitude of legitimate reasons for why they cannot bring themselves to actively vote to install him as President.
 
Foxbatt said:
Then she should have gone to the police. Why does she have to tell a number of people? Just because it's convincing for you doesn't mean it happened. I don't know if it happened or not and neither do you. She should have gone to the police immediately and got a lawyer for herself. I am sure she would have got plenty of lawyers and even funding if it was against Biden.
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Eboue said:
I think this is a very naive way of looking at how rape cases are handled in this country, especially against powerful people.
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Since when did that stop the law enforcement acting? Especially in a Republican Administration against a Democratic big shot? I never knew that USA is a banana republic.
 
Foxbatt said:
Then she should have gone to the police. Why does she have to tell a number of people? Just because it's convincing for you doesn't mean it happened. I don't know if it happened or not and neither do you. She should have gone to the police immediately and got a lawyer for herself. I am sure she would have got plenty of lawyers and even funding if it was against Biden.
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While I think there are troubling inconsistencies with Reade's account, I don't agree with your point at all. If she was sexually assaulted, it would have been deeply traumatic and it would make perfect sense if someone would prefer to bury it and forget the episode if possible rather than try to relive the episode throughout an investigation.
 
Foxbatt said:
Then she should have gone to the police. Why does she have to tell a number of people? Just because it's convincing for you doesn't mean it happened. I don't know if it happened or not and neither do you. She should have gone to the police immediately and got a lawyer for herself. I am sure she would have got plenty of lawyers and even funding if it was against Biden.
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I support Biden, but I don't think it is as simple as this. A lot of rape victims do not go directly to the police after the rape and might go years without telling anyone.

In this case, though, it seems that the story has changed several times both from the woman in question and from her brother. Making the story more comparable to the other two Kavanaugh cases than to Dr. Ford one.

In general, it is very hard to prove these cases that might have happened 3 decades ago, and people often are aligned to believe the victims (cause why would they lie). However, here I find the story very inconsistent, in addition to being thrown at the middle of an electoral campaign. Additionally, Biden was already VP, hardly an unknown so there is the question why wait so long.

In any case, it is a rape allegation and while it should be taken seriously (the police to investigate both sides and go from there) it shouldn't also destroy Biden just based on 'I feel that I should believe that woman'.
 
BobbyManc said:
Do you really need it explaining to you why she might not have wanted to go to the police? What planet are you on where a woman is raped and her immediate response is to phone the police and a lawyer.

As for the Bernie camp voting for Biden debate, I don’t see why it is hard to understand both sides. Both are understandable to me. Personally I’d hold my nose and vote for Biden as the lesser evil; but make no mistake that he is an ‘evil’, and people could have a multitude of legitimate reasons for why they cannot bring themselves to actively vote to install him as President.
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There could be many reasons not to vote for him of course. But the rape case is just allegations at this stage. There is no point crying rape now without doing something about it and the only thing is going to law enforcement.
I personally don't like Biden. I think it's a mistake for the Democrats to nominate him. I am not American and though I would vote for anyone but Trump at this stage of I was American.
But to say he is a rapist is pure bunkum if you can't prove it in a Court of law. Forget about proving in a Court of law. She hasn't even gone to court.
 
Foxbatt said:
There could be many reasons not to vote for him of course. But the rape case is just allegations at this stage. There is no point crying rape now without doing something about it and the only thing is going to law enforcement.
I personally don't like Biden. I think it's a mistake for the Democrats to nominate him. I am not American and though I would vote for anyone but Trump at this stage of I was American.
But to say he is a rapist is pure bunkum if you can't prove it in a Court of law. Forget about proving in a Court of law. She hasn't even gone to court.
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She did file a police report.
 
sport2793 said:
This would be strong evidence but for the fact that those multiple other people have changed their story multiple times to synchronize with Reade. Take for example the brother who initially said to a reporter "I remember her saying 27 years ago he touched Tara inappropriately on the neck and shoulders" and then took it upon himself several days later to call the reporter back and say "actually I forgot that she also mentioned that he reached under her skirt and penetrated her" after Tara came out and said this. It's quite clear that the latter quote is the far more shocking thing that sticks in the memory yet the brother "forgot" this part of the re-telling. Not to mention the numerous times Tara Reade herself has championed Joe Biden as a true fighter for women's rights.

This article does a decent job summarizing the above point and other points which hurt her credibility: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/15/seriousness-flaws-tara-reades-allegations/

I'm sorry this all smells of a political hit job and you are happy to go along with it as it suits your motives.
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Ultimately, irrespective what actually happened, all of these cases are ginned up by groups seeking to wield power over rival groups. There are a lot of fringe Sanders supporters who are hurt that their guy didn't win, so this a way to express their pain - by attempting to wound the person who beat their guy.
 
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Foxbatt said:
There could be many reasons not to vote for him of course. But the rape case is just allegations at this stage. There is no point crying rape now without doing something about it and the only thing is going to law enforcement.
I personally don't like Biden. I think it's a mistake for the Democrats to nominate him. I am not American and though I would vote for anyone but Trump at this stage of I was American.
But to say he is a rapist is pure bunkum if you can't prove it in a Court of law. Forget about proving in a Court of law. She hasn't even gone to court.
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Why is a court of law the necessary test? The vast majority of rapists will never go to court and if they do they will be acquitted. It is the act of rape that makes them a rapist, and you can choose to believe or disbelieve testimony against that person with or without it being heard in a court of law. Did OJ Simpson’s acquittal in court satisfy you that there was no chance he murdered his wife, for example?
 
Raoul said:
Ultimately, irrespective what actually happened, all of these cases are ginned up by groups seeking to wield power over rival groups. There are a lot of Sanders supporters who are hurt that their guy didn't win, so this a way to express their pain - by attempting to wound the person who beat their guy.
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I don't like Biden. I preferred Bernie. But it's not on to say one is a rapist when it's only an allegation. I personally don't know what happened and neither do anyone here. Look at what happened in Scotland in the Alex Sammond case. All the media said he would be convicted. The jury found for him not guilty in all the cases bar one which was not proven and in Scottish law he is innocent.
Biden may well have used his finger. I don't know and neither does anyone here. Someone may sound convincing in a newspaper but when confronted with evidence in a Court of law is where the case is proven or not and someone found guilty or not.
She only went to police recently because she found she was getting harassed online and wanted to report that.
 
BobbyManc said:
Why is a court of law the necessary test? The vast majority of rapists will never go to court and if they do they will be acquitted. It is the act of rape that makes them a rapist, and you can choose to believe or disbelieve testimony against that person with or without it being heard in a court of law. Did OJ Simpson’s acquittal in court satisfy you that there was no chance he murdered his wife, for example?
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Is that now the default attack? Hey, once the law clearly was bent, so now every time we can use that case. And I hate Biden, and there is an inconsistent rape allegation for him, so he is a rapist, otherwise, you are a rape apologist. And it doesn't need to be proven cause OJ Simpson something.

Not saying that you are personally saying this, but it has been the recurring theme in this thread since the allegation started. It is pretty scary if an allegation can destroy someone, and we shouldn't even bother to check if the allegations stands or not, cause OJ Simpson.
 
BobbyManc said:
Why is a court of law the necessary test? The vast majority of rapists will never go to court and if they do they will be acquitted. It is the act of rape that makes them a rapist, and you can choose to believe or disbelieve testimony against that person with or without it being heard in a court of law. Did OJ Simpson’s acquittal in court satisfy you that there was no chance he murdered his wife, for example?
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You must be joking. Why should I believe what someone says? Why should anyone believe it? A court of law is where you decide if one had committed a crimes or not. Rape is a criminal offence. In a democracy that's the basic right of anyone.
Otherwise it's called a kangaroo court.
I am not saying Biden did it or didn't do it. But the court is where it has to be decided in a democracy.
 
Eboue said:
She did file a police report.
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About being raped by Joe Biden?

Are you a troll or just obnoxious? I'm impressed you dug up a post I made about Kavanaugh from god knows how long ago. Honestly I wouldn't even know how to do that on this forum.

Re: Reade: show me why you, oh great oracle, find her account credible when the journalists who investigated it didn't. I'm not even asking you to suggest why after 26 years she'd come forward and accuse him of sexual harassment, and then one year later change her story to sexual assault. Or why the three people she claimed to have told about in 1993 categorically denied that. Or that it's her brother who is the main secondary source.

I found Kavanaugh ridiculous in the way he acted, the account credible on the weight of evidence and motivation and therefore made my mind up. I'm extremely impressed that you equate the testimony of Blaise-ford - who basically ruined her life by choosing to come forward and under oath testify, publically - to Reade who seems to at least have serious issues with consistency in her story.
 
Basically for some people, all rape accusations are the same, all criminal court cases are the same because OJ Simpson and all politicians are the same* because reasons, the internet, and the sad death of reasoned discussion. What a world.

* except your chosen candidate, of course
 
Beachryan said:
About being raped by Joe Biden?

Are you a troll or just obnoxious? I'm impressed you dug up a post I made about Kavanaugh from god knows how long ago. Honestly I wouldn't even know how to do that on this forum.

Re: Reade: show me why you, oh great oracle, find her account credible when the journalists who investigated it didn't. I'm not even asking you to suggest why after 26 years she'd come forward and accuse him of sexual harassment, and then one year later change her story to sexual assault. Or why the three people she claimed to have told about in 1993 categorically denied that. Or that it's her brother who is the main secondary source.

I found Kavanaugh ridiculous in the way he acted, the account credible on the weight of evidence and motivation and therefore made my mind up. I'm extremely impressed that you equate the testimony of Blaise-ford - who basically ruined her life by choosing to come forward and under oath testify, publically - to Reade who seems to at least have serious issues with consistency in her story.
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Foxbatt said:
There could be many reasons not to vote for him of course. But the rape case is just allegations at this stage. There is no point crying rape now without doing something about it and the only thing is going to law enforcement.
I personally don't like Biden. I think it's a mistake for the Democrats to nominate him. I am not American and though I would vote for anyone but Trump at this stage of I was American.
But to say he is a rapist is pure bunkum if you can't prove it in a Court of law. Forget about proving in a Court of law. She hasn't even gone to court.
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Couldn't agree more with this sentiment.
 
Foxbatt said:
You must be joking. Why should I believe what someone says? Why should anyone believe it? A court of law is where you decide if one had committed a crimes or not. Rape is a criminal offence. In a democracy that's the basic right of anyone.
Otherwise it's called a kangaroo court.
I am not saying Biden did it or didn't do it. But the court is where it has to be decided in a democracy.
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Why should you believe/disbelieve it? You’re a human being with a brain. You look at the available evidence and form an opinion. Do you need all your opinions to be verified in a court of law? Do you think the verdict of a court is infallible? In a democracy you have free speech, so you can discuss the Biden allegation and express an opinion. That’s what people are doing.

Revan said:
Is that now the default attack? Hey, once the law clearly was bent, so now every time we can use that case. And I hate Biden, and there is an inconsistent rape allegation for him, so he is a rapist, otherwise, you are a rape apologist. And it doesn't need to be proven cause OJ Simpson something.

Not saying that you are personally saying this, but it has been the recurring theme in this thread since the allegation started. It is pretty scary if an allegation can destroy someone, and we shouldn't even bother to check if the allegations stands or not, cause OJ Simpson.
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Huh? I haven’t even looked into the Biden allegations properly yet, I have no clue how credible the testimony may or may not be. All I’m disputing is the bizarre notion that unless he is found guilty in court then he simply cannot be considered a rapist/to have committed some form of sexual assault. People can form opinions from whatever evidence is available. I referred to the OJ case as an obvious and famous example of where a court verdict should not be treated as fact.
 
Beachryan said:
About being raped by Joe Biden?

Are you a troll or just obnoxious? I'm impressed you dug up a post I made about Kavanaugh from god knows how long ago. Honestly I wouldn't even know how to do that on this forum.

Re: Reade: show me why you, oh great oracle, find her account credible when the journalists who investigated it didn't. I'm not even asking you to suggest why after 26 years she'd come forward and accuse him of sexual harassment, and then one year later change her story to sexual assault. Or why the three people she claimed to have told about in 1993 categorically denied that. Or that it's her brother who is the main secondary source.

I found Kavanaugh ridiculous in the way he acted, the account credible on the weight of evidence and motivation and therefore made my mind up. I'm extremely impressed that you equate the testimony of Blaise-ford - who basically ruined her life by choosing to come forward and under oath testify, publically - to Reade who seems to at least have serious issues with consistency in her story.
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You know, if you are going to be wrong you could at least be least confident about it.




As to the later paragraphs, yes I know you found Ford credible and not Reade and I think its because Kavanaugh is a republican and Biden is a democrat.

I find them both credible because of the reasons I listed in previous posts and because I have even a little bit of integrity.
 
BobbyManc said:
Huh? I haven’t even looked into the Biden allegations properly yet, I have no clue how credible the testimony may or may not be. All I’m disputing is the bizarre notion that unless he is found guilty in court then he simply cannot be considered a rapist/to have committed some form of sexual assault. People can form opinions from whatever evidence is available. I referred to the OJ case as an obvious and famous example of where a court verdict should not be treated as fact.
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It has already been used in the thread. feck the law and court, cause courts failed in case of OJ Simpson.

I think that in order to believe that he is a rapist, there should at least be a trial where Reade, her brother and other people involved in this case are under oath. And then we can make our opinions. Until then IMO it is just partisan noise, with people who hated Biden anyway having another stick to beat him in the name of their 'integrity'.
 
Eboue said:
You know, if you are going to be wrong you could at least be least confident about it.




As to the later paragraphs, yes I know you found Ford credible and not Reade and I think its because Kavanaugh is a republican and Biden is a democrat.

I find them both credible because of the reasons I listed in previous posts and because I have even a little bit of integrity.
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Apologies, I didn't realise she'd file a police report against Biden...this week. Fair enough.

I just find things like this odd: "Reade said she didn’t consider the acts toward her sexualization. She instead compared her experience to being a lamp. “It’s pretty. Set it over there,” she said. “Then when it’s too bright, you throw it away.”

That's Reade in April of last year, when doing an interview on how she felt harassed. I just struggle to understand someone who would say that, and then forget the bit about the lamp being raped. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite.

Listen, if some better evidence comes about on Biden I'd be grateful - he's a terrible candidate and I'd prefer any of the other previous democratic candidates. But I'm not going to judge him based on this evidence.
 
Eboue said:
You can't have an opinion until the American legal system (noted for always being just) has ruled. You heard it here folks.
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What would you say if she refused to testify under oath, not in a criminal court, but in a congressional hearing like Ford?
 
Revan said:
It has already been used in the thread. feck the law and court, cause courts failed in case of OJ Simpson.

I think that in order to believe that he is a rapist, there should at least be a trial where Reade, her brother and other people involved in this case are under oath. And then we can make our opinions. Until then IMO it is just partisan noise, with people who hated Biden anyway having another stick to beat him in the name of their 'integrity'.
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You are aware the majority of rapists will walk free from a court of law? And an even greater majority will never even have to face a day in court? According to your view then the amount of rapists in the world must be incredibly low. What if someone close to you accused someone of rape but refused to go to the police. Would the person they accused not be a rapist in your eyes because the court has not yet told you what opinion you can form?

You’re attacking one side for ‘partisan noise’ while you’re refusing to entertain the notion that Biden may be a rapist in spite of an allegation against him because he has not been found guilty in a court. Feel free to dismiss the allegation and express your belief that it is untrue. But the idea that you cannot believe otherwise until a court decides is frankly ridiculous.
 
BobbyManc said:
You are aware the majority of rapists will walk free from a court of law? And an even greater majority will never even have to face a day in court? According to your view then the amount of rapists in the world must be incredibly low. What if someone close to you accused someone of rape but refused to go to the police. Would the person they accused not be a rapist in your eyes because the court has not yet told you what opinion you can form?

You’re attacking one side for ‘partisan noise’ while you’re refusing to entertain the notion that Biden may be a rapist in spite of an allegation against him because he has not been found guilty in a court. Feel free to dismiss the allegation and express your belief that it is untrue. But the idea that you cannot believe otherwise until a court decides is frankly ridiculous.
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I don't disagree that the courts are extremely fallible, but what other option do you suggest, particularly for public figures whose entire career can be wrecked by an allegation that turns out to be false?

Personally I think Reade having gone to several different media outlets, and having each of them run independent fact checks is at least something worth weighing up before calling him a rapist. I mean, if the evidence was strong, wouldn't breaking that story be a huge win for most journalists?
 
Beachryan said:
I don't disagree that the courts are extremely fallible, but what other option do you suggest, particularly for public figures whose entire career can be wrecked by an allegation that turns out to be false?

Personally I think Reade having gone to several different media outlets, and having each of them run independent fact checks is at least something worth weighing up before calling him a rapist. I mean, if the evidence was strong, wouldn't breaking that story be a huge win for most journalists?
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I suggest that people read the allegation and form an opinion. That’s all you can do. The insistence that your opinion simply cannot be that he is a rapist until a court agrees is so silly I can’t believe I’m having to debate it.

I don’t have an opinion on the veracity of the allegation as I know nothing of it yet. But once you read about it then it’s fair to express a view. I will happily say that I believe OJ Simpson to be a murderer and Kevin Spacey to be a rapist in spite of the absence of supporting court verdicts. I don’t think anyone would say that’s an unreasonable position to adopt.
 
BobbyManc said:
You are aware the majority of rapists will walk free from a court of law? And an even greater majority will never even have to face a day in court? According to your view then the amount of rapists in the world must be incredibly low. What if someone close to you accused someone of rape but refused to go to the police. Would the person they accused not be a rapist in your eyes because the court has not yet told you what opinion you can form?

You’re attacking one side for ‘partisan noise’ while you’re refusing to entertain the notion that Biden may be a rapist in spite of an allegation against him because he has not been found guilty in a court. Feel free to dismiss the allegation and express your belief that it is untrue. But the idea that you cannot believe otherwise until a court decides is frankly ridiculous.
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He might well be a rapist. Or he might not be. As of this moment, we do not know, so I don't understand why an unproven allegation should destroy his career and essentially gift the presidency to Trump for another 4 years.
 
Given American president's track record it's about time all candidates are given lie detector tests on potentially incrementing information. Do it all under oath with severe ramifications if evidence is ever found.
 
senorgregster said:
Given American president's track record it's about time all candidates are given lie detector tests on potentially incrementing information. Do it all under oath with severe ramifications if evidence is ever found.
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Donald wouldn’t last past the introduction.
 
Beachryan said:
Not at all. Will voting Trump out in 2020 ensure the GOP start responding to the majority of Americans on issues, and return to some kind of sanity? I don't know. But it's a damn sight more likely than voting for 4 more years of Trump.

American politics has several huge issues, that will take a generation to resolve if they even do, that have absolutely nothing to do with Donald Trump. He's a symptom not the disease. But it's still worth treating a symptom if you have the opportunity.

- Citizens United
- Gerrymandering and voter supression
- Electoral college falling out of step with democratic ideals
- General levels of education
- State of news media, and lines blurred between news and entertainment
- Ever-increasing wealth inequality
- Blown up deficit
- Climate change

All those things are major issues that won't be solved by voting out Trump. But they're all going to get worse if his 'brand of politics' is endorsed by another victory.
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It’s going to get worse whether it’s Trump or Biden. Who controls and pays for the governing body? Who keeps voting for them? Voters who insisted on or were convinced by media into voting the lesser of the two evils over these years made this shit sandwich (Trump) so they’re gonna eat that shit sandwich whether they like it or not. This is what happens when people only worry about their own jobs and their own 401k and not also for their neighbor — ironic because this is supposed to be Christian nation. This is what happens when the supposed party of working people turns their backs on them and merely pays lip service. People get the government they deserve. Christ flipped tables and whipped corrupt merchants and government. Most of his followers sit on ass.
 
Eboue said:
Imagine being an extremely online European obsessed with American politics for some reason and thinking "all the thousands of people who donate their time and money to a better world don't actually care about anything". Baffling how you could choose to live your life like this.
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Speak for yourself. I actually donated nearly $1000 to his and other progressive campaigns just to win internet battles.
 
Foxbatt said:
Then she should have gone to the police. Why does she have to tell a number of people? Just because it's convincing for you doesn't mean it happened. I don't know if it happened or not and neither do you. She should have gone to the police immediately and got a lawyer for herself. I am sure she would have got plenty of lawyers and even funding if it was against Biden.
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Police are generally unhelpful and sometimes even hostile towards victims of rape. Many times, even getting a rape kit was a chore of a process. Also, it’s not as simple as lawyering up and getting funding and that’s all. No. This is a powerful man in politics with many rich donors who are vested in his survival. They got lawyers too, plus are probably very effective at smear campaigns. FFS that Stanford douche was not only convicted of rape, but also let off on a super light punishment because daddy was a rich guy who convinced the totally objective courts that punishment would ruin his life. Lastly, my man, you gotta look into why a lot of times women don’t immediately report rapes.
 
Revan said:
He might well be a rapist. Or he might not be. As of this moment, we do not know, so I don't understand why an unproven allegation should destroy his career and essentially gift the presidency to Trump for another 4 years.
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Was this the same opinion you had during Trump’s campaign and Kavanaugh’s process?

By the way I don’t know if he did rape either, but I think Reade is credible enough to warrant political and media scrutiny on Biden. To overlook this because of trying to beat Trump just undermines the whole metoo movement and makes a huge mockery of BelieveAllWomen. It’s a bad look.
 
Florida Man said:
Was this the same opinion you had during Trump’s campaign and Kavanaugh’s process?

By the way I don’t know if he did rape either, but I think Reade is credible enough to warrant political and media scrutiny on Biden. To overlook this because of trying to beat Trump just undermines the whole metoo movement and makes a huge mockery of BelieveAllWomen. It’s a bad look.
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I think that Dr. Ford's testimony was definitely emotional, and looked believable to me (and the stoyr of her life seems to check out). I think that it should have been a more detailed investigation than the one-week FBI investigation. However, by far the main reason I did not want Kavanaugh elected was cause of the policies he support. I have no idea if he raped Ford or not, but I think that he supports terrible policies that at his position will do a lot of damage to the country. I also don't think that I ever called him rapist, despite that as I said, Dr Ford testimony looked very credible and extremely emotional to the point that I had to turn it off cause it was making me very uneasy.

I don't think that it is (at this stage) the same analogy as the one for Biden, considering that Ford went to the senate to give her testimony, essentially threatening herself and her family from the MAGA crow. She also (as far as I understood) did not change her story, which cannot be said for the current case.

But at the end of the day I will be honest. The main reason why I want Biden as president (considering the opponent) is cause of his policies, and the main reason I wanted Kavanaugh to not become SCOTUS is cause of his policies. The rape was just another stick to beat Kavanaugh for me, I wanted him to not become SCOTUS in any case. Even if he was a really nice person. The stakes are just too high.
 
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