2016 US Presidential Elections | Trump Wins

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Carolina Red said:
Have we ever stopped pointing nukes at one another though?

I just don't see a big difference in policy between the US and Russia before or after 1991... Especially on the Russian front in the last decade. The name changed, but the stances didn't.
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No, but it feels a lot less likely than it did all those years ago.

We brought them into the G7 officially. That was big. Relations have become a lot worse since we suspended their membership in absentia. Not that it wasn't totally unwarranted but the manner in which it was done would upset anyone.
 
Just a little thought...is it possible that the parties change again? Populist economics and conservative social values for GOP, neoliberal stuff from Dems. (Based on Conservatives saying the DNC sounded like Reagan (law and order, American exceptionalism).
 
berbatrick said:
Just a little thought...is it possible that the parties change again? Populist economics and conservative social values for GOP, neoliberal stuff from Dems. (Based on Conservatives saying the DNC sounded like Reagan (law and order, American exceptionalism).
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I think a more plausible outcome is the GOP fractures at some point - with the normal Republicans remaining with the GOP and Conservative group perhaps start a new party. Either that or the GOP remain as they are but a good number of establishment Republicans move toward considering Dem candidates. The status quo can't remain as it is indefinitely as there are two many pressures on both extremes of American politics.
 
Mario Cuomo was my favorite politician growing up. Listening to Andrew is eerily reminiscent of listening to his Dad in 1984.
 


Watching this makes me think Donald Trump knows how stupid his campaign is

Credit to him though, he's laughing at himself and its pretty funny
 
Raoul said:
I think a more plausible outcome is the GOP fractures at some point
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Hasn't or should I say, didn't it do that already with the emergence of the Tea Party lot? They changed the face of the GOP in a lot of different ways and made a huge impact before finally kind of morphing back for a while. I think the GOP is fractured yet again now and you can see how the far right/tea party lot could easily create a USA equivalent of UKIP. USIP (United States Independence Party) or USDL (United States Defence League) or USNP (United States Nationalist Party)
 
langster said:
Hasn't or should I say, didn't it do that already with the emergence of the Tea Party lot? They changed the face of the GOP in a lot of different ways and made a huge impact before finally kind of morphing back for a while. I think the GOP is fractured yet again now and you can see how the far right/tea party lot could easily create a USA equivalent of UKIP. USIP (United States Independence Party) or USDL (United States Defence League) or USNP (United States Nationalist Party)
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The party still remains single entity though. Trump carved out a niche for himself, but I reckon if there's a split, they'd split into two, Establishment GOP and Tea Party.
 
Raoul said:
There was a brilliant segment on MSNBC a few minutes ago where Jeff Greenfield explained why Trump supporters are stuck in his reality distortion field where facts don't matter. He described it as a psychological response (forget the actual term) whereby people with certain entrenched views, rather than reconsider them when confronted with facts, instead double down on those views as a means to "not surrender" to the person presenting facts. They also quite astutely said that Trump has spent much of the past year framing the media as "dishonest" so that when his supporters are provided information about something controversial Trump said or did, their reflexive response is to distrust the media rather than weigh whether the information is relevant.

When you think about it - this is pretty much the reality distortion field the GOP have been in since the Tea Party rolled in back in 2010.
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Sounds like cognitive dissonance. Look at idiots that never give up on conspiracy theories and how it's more likely to believe in multiple conspiracies if one believes in a single conspiracy.
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
This has been going on on Fox News since well before 2010. The tea party and Trump is only a response to it. Colbert coined the term 'truthiness' for it.

What Fox have done is fuel the narrative that the main stream media has a liberal bias. So any presentation of actual facts presented by the main stream media is viewed through this prism and is ignored as them taking sides.
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Hate talk radio does plenty of damage and could be argued to have contributed more damage committed than by FNC.
 


A very unfortunate pic of Drumpf. Obviously with cameras being able to take thousands of pictures a minute you can capture anyone with almost any facial expression or as recently used by both sides, capture anyone doing a Nazi salute, but still, this one doesn't look good at all.
 
berbatrick said:
Just a little thought...is it possible that the parties change again? Populist economics and conservative social values for GOP, neoliberal stuff from Dems. (Based on Conservatives saying the DNC sounded like Reagan (law and order, American exceptionalism).
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Why would the dems become neoliberal? Aren´t the grass-roots pushing hard to the left? If they are able to keep the young people engaged, they might move from center to the left and become more a social-democrat-3rd-way kind of party. If that´s not happening I could actually see the dems splitting (or the people on the left simply leave politics)
The problem for the GOP is that they are much more fractured. Especially with the rise of isolationism, protectionism, economic populism (and implicitly "big government") you really have a huge spectrum on almost every issue. I also don´t see how they could establish a new consensus in their party. Maybe when Trump wins and fails (=his approach is getting discredited, but making predictions about a future with Trump as POTUS is impossible. Everything between the end of the world and 4 years of absolutely nothing is plausible.
 
Carolina Red said:
Yes. It has interested me for quite some time that those called "left wing liberals" and "socialists" in America are to the centre-right in the European spectrum.
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American politics have steadily pulled to the right of the political compass over the decades. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016
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nick2004 said:
Exactly!

Every businessman will have to do business with him and his family. Trump will become the strongest force in USA. WIN! (And he doesn't care about anything else.)
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I agree with you 100%, but the trouble with that is, is that it's highly illegal to use the position for personal gain and also surely him failing as President would ultimately be extremely detrimental to his personal/family business and name? Certainly seeing as he admits the majority of his fortune/success/wealth/whatever is all based around his name. Mark Cuban has been ripping the shit out of him recently, and he's another one who seriously questions Trump's fortune and wealth. He was quoted saying again yesterday that he doesn't think Trump is worth anywhere near $1 Billion let alone the $4.5Bn Forbes values him at and the $10Bn he values himself at.

I feel Trump is walking an exceedingly fine line here, while it does appear he is making a huge name for himself (bigger than it already was) and going along with the old adage "there's no such thing as bad publicity" his hotels have all been suffering badly from very low bookings, so obviously it is having an adverse affect in at least one way. @Raoul has been predicting a huge meltdown and implosion from Trump for months, and I am shocked it hasn't happened yet and the way it has gone, but if it does happen, it is completely feasible that it could take him down completely. It's also feasible that it could go the other way and make him more of a media monster, but depending on how and when (and if) he does implode, will heavily depend on how hard he rises or falls from it. Let's not forget the Trump University suits still to be played out in court, many are saying that could cost him millions because the case against him is so strong.
 



So, after almost a decade of "democrats" in power, inequality is at its highest levels.

How he pretends to change that by giving a new chance to the same guys?

Republicans and democrats are all financed and owned by the same people, the same big corporations. In front of the tv cameras they are enemies, but behind curtains they are friends, family. Its stupid to think that by keep electing this guys anything will change. Maybe some little things will change depending on one or another side, but at the end of the day, poor people will still be poor and on their own. people will still be living in debt for the whole of their lives, and that's because the real power behind politics, don't want that to change, it's what fuels them.


On that basis, i do prefer Trump to win now.

People are too well indoctrinated by the TV. They need to reach rock bottom, they need shock therapy. Its the only way they awake and stop fecking voting for the same corrupt feckers. Hillary winning would just make this cycle to keep repeating itself.

If Trump wins, it means the citizens are starting to get fed up with the establishment, and they are willing to vote a buffoon before a corporate puppet once again.

It means, in 4 more years, some outsider candidate might have a chance against the candidates of the bipartisan scam system.

Trump or Hillary, the US gonna be in the exact same spot it is in 4 years, discussing the exact same issues, repeating the exact same circus.
 
MrMarcello said:
American politics have steadily pulled to the right of the political compass over the decades. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016
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:)
I frequently use that site to teach about the political spectrum.

It's a troubling thing when both parties pull the same direction... it's why I'm hoping that Bernie has started a movement to pull the Democrats back towards the left... well, center at least.
 
George Owen said:



So, after almost a decade of "democrats" in power, inequality is at its highest levels.

How he pretends to change that by giving a new chance to the same guys?

Republicans and democrats are all financed and owned by the same people, the same big corporations. In front of the tv cameras they are enemies, but behind curtains they are friends, family. Its stupid to think that by keep electing this guys anything will change. Maybe some little things will change depending on one or another side, but at the end of the day, poor people will still be poor and on their own. people will still be living in debt for the whole of their lives, and that's because the real power behind politics, don't want that to change, it's what fuels them.


On that basis, i do prefer Trump to win now.

People are too well indoctrinated by the TV. They need to reach rock bottom, they need shock therapy. Its the only way they awake and stop fecking voting for the same corrupt feckers. Hillary winning would just make this cycle to keep repeating itself.

If Trump wins, it means the citizens are starting to get fed up with the establishment, and they are willing to vote a buffoon before a corporate puppet once again.

It means, in 4 more years, some outsider candidate might have a chance against the candidates of the bipartisan scam system.

Trump or Hillary, the US gonna be in the exact same spot it is in 4 years, discussing the exact same issues, repeating the exact same circus.
Click to expand...


The Republicans have controlled the Congress for 6 of those 8 years.
 
George Owen said:



So, after almost a decade of "democrats" in power, inequality is at its highest levels.

How he pretends to change that by giving a new chance to the same guys?

Republicans and democrats are all financed and owned by the same people, the same big corporations. In front of the tv cameras they are enemies, but behind curtains they are friends, family. Its stupid to think that by keep electing this guys anything will change. Maybe some little things will change depending on one or another side, but at the end of the day, poor people will still be poor and on their own. people will still be living in debt for the whole of their lives, and that's because the real power behind politics, don't want that to change, it's what fuels them.


On that basis, i do prefer Trump to win now.

People are too well indoctrinated by the TV. They need to reach rock bottom, they need shock therapy. Its the only way they awake and stop fecking voting for the same corrupt feckers. Hillary winning would just make this cycle to keep repeating itself.

If Trump wins, it means the citizens are starting to get fed up with the establishment, and they are willing to vote a buffoon before a corporate puppet once again.

It means, in 4 more years, some outsider candidate might have a chance against the candidates of the bipartisan scam system.

Trump or Hillary, the US gonna be in the exact same spot it is in 4 years, discussing the exact same issues, repeating the exact same circus.
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I just do not get this at all, though. You say that nothing is going to improve under Clinton, yet seem to expect a self-interested, hate-driven maniac like Trump to be any better. Trump is heavily involved with big corporations; he owns many himself.

I get the disillusionment among many, but electing Trump would be dangerous. It'd be a massive setback for US politics and any nation associated with them: we'd see Trump offend and insult other nations, leading to disruptions in international relations, we'd see further tensions between Americans and minorities - especially Muslims. Don't expect any action on important issues like climate change, because Trump thinks the whole fecking thing is a hoax!:lol:

It's just a bizarre way to try and fight the establishment, by electing a corporate billionaire. I don't think Hilary particularly has the best interests of US citizens at heart, but she'll at least try to make political moves in a manner which suggests she does, which is something. Trump, though? The man will just not give a feck.
 
Carolina Red said:
:)
I frequently use that site to teach about the political spectrum.

It's a troubling thing when both parties pull the same direction... it's why I'm hoping that Bernie has started a movement to pull the Democrats back towards the left... well, center at least.
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Yeah, it's an interesting website, although admittedly does feel quite skewed and lacks context; Trump's position feels quite tenuous in a sense because he doesn't really have many actual policies as such, wouldn't know how to enact most of them, and alters his populist, inconsistent political opinions on a whim.
 
Carolina Red said:
Inequality for All by Robert Reich does a great job illustrating what Bernie's talking about there.
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Good shout. Bernie would have made a difference, but he can't do it on his own. Wolf-Pac are on the right lines (as we have discussed before) and the will of the American people on a whole is definitely up for change. The average person is getting sick to their stomach with it all. All the time inequality grows and the disparity between the classes and ethnic groups continues to grow, the worse it will get. It HAS to reach a tipping point, and hopefully it's not too far away. Getting money out of politics and more people like Bernie, Liz Warren, Jill Stein and the like, and you can definitely see a small light at the end of the tunnel. Awareness is growing along with resentment, and hopefully change is on the way. If Hillary does get elected and takes on even just a couple of Bernie's proposals and gives Liz and Bernie prominent positions in the Government, then surely that has to be considered a good thing and a small step forward?
 
langster said:
Good shout. Bernie would have made a difference, but he can't do it on his own. Wolf-Pac are on the right lines (as we have discussed before) and the will of the American people on a whole is definitely up for change. The average person is getting sick to their stomach with it all. All the time inequality grows and the disparity between the classes and ethnic groups continues to grow, the worse it will get. It HAS to reach a tipping point, and hopefully it's not too far away. Getting money out of politics and more people like Bernie, Liz Warren, Jill Stein and the like, and you can definitely see a small light at the end of the tunnel. Awareness is growing along with resentment, and hopefully change is on the way. If Hillary goes get elected and takes on even just a couple of Bernie's proposals and gives Liz and Bernie prominent positions in the Government, then surely that has to be considered a good thing and a small step forward?
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That's what I'm hoping happens. I've not no great love for Hilary, but if she turns out to be a fairly dull President then the Dems could potentially go for someone a bit more left and socially reformist in 2024 if she's served two terms by then. A semi anti-establishment choice that's still quite sensible and provides continuity.

Trump fecks all that up, though. He's the wrong anti-establishment choice in that if he fecks up and the US then goes for someone more moderate that doesn't offer any major improvements (which is actually a better case scenario under Trump), then the hope of a decent anti-establishment type candidate will be fecked for generations after the example of Trump...who, it should be note, is not at all anti-establishment and is instead heavily motivated by greed and sheer self-interest.
 
MrMarcello said:
American politics have steadily pulled to the right of the political compass over the decades. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016
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That is a pretty disputable statement. The USA moved a lot to the left on social issues. Conservatism lost the "culture war". If the economy moved to the right, left or just stayed where it was is quite debatable. All three positions could make a solid argument for their view. The classic numbers that are often used to measure these things didn´t change a whole lot.

How do you explain, that legislation and government didn´t follow this alleged trend of the parties?
 
langster said:
f Hillary does get elected and takes on even just a couple of Bernie's proposals and gives Liz and Bernie prominent positions in the Government, then surely that has to be considered a good thing and a small step forward?
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I would count it as such. The biggest thing more than Hillary winning the presidency is the House of Reps switching hands. We desperately need another scenario where Democrats control government.
 
PedroMendez said:
That is a pretty disputable statement. The USA moved a lot to the left on social issues. Conservatism lost the "culture war". If the economy moved to the right, left or just stayed where it was is quite debatable. All three positions could make a solid argument for their view. The classic numbers that are often used to measure these things didn´t change a whole lot.

How do you explain, that legislation and government didn´t follow this alleged trend of the parties?
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Many of the social issues that the nation has moved left on have been decided in state legislatures, state courts, and the federal court system, not by national candidates or parties.
 
Cheesy said:
Trump fecks all that up, though. He's the wrong anti-establishment choice in that if he fecks up and the US then goes for someone more moderate that doesn't offer any major improvements (which is actually a better case scenario under Trump), then the hope of a decent anti-establishment type candidate will be fecked for generations after the example of Trump...who, it should be note, is not at all anti-establishment and is instead heavily motivated by greed and sheer self-interest.
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Exactly, not only does he not give a shit, he actually doesn't know or care either way. He's a fecking con artist who is just out for himself. I really cannot comprehend the people saying a vote for him is a vote against the establishment. That's the most counter productive and ass backwards logic I think I have ever heard.
 
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