2016 US Presidential Elections | Trump Wins

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129104946 said:
No, I don't think he said he isn't a hero, just that he is only a hero because he was captured. Unless I'm wrong. I don't see too much wrong with that and that's coming from someone with a huge military family.
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I think it depends more on who would say such a thing. Hillary or Obama, or any liberal for that matter, would be crucified for dumping on McCain´s service like that. Can you imagine Obama bringing up that captured stuff in he 2008 presidential run???

But somehow a draft dodging rich daddy´s boy can get away with it, and even poll positively for it. Beats me.

Anyway, in honor of Ali, a different take on military service. War hero?

 
Raoul said:
The trouble with Liz being the VP is half the Democratic base will be secretly hoping Hillary accidentally chokes on a pork chop.
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They can hope openly as long as they go to the polls.

It'd be an interesting move, for sure. I can't see Clinton winning the popular votes by more than 6 points as things stand. Dave Wasserman calculated that she needs at least 7 to put the House in play. If Lizzy can galvanise her progressive base out and Clinton gets her moderates, we could be looking at a Reagan style 10 points wash.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
They can hope openly as long as they go to the polls.

It'd be an interesting move, for sure. I can't see Clinton winning the popular votes by more than 6 points as things stand. Dave Wasserman calculated that she needs at least 7 to put the House in play. If Lizzy can galvanise her progressive base out and Clinton gets her moderates, we could be looking at a Reagan style 10 points wash.
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I still think Trump will implode. He can't get away with going after the "Mexican Judge" and pointing to "My African American" and not estrange himself from the people he needs (ie non-whites) to win. He seems to be doubling down instead of stepping back, so things will definitely reach a head at some point between now and Nov.
 
Why does he need non-whites? He is getting unprecedented numbers of whites, especially non-degree white males. I respect it as a political strategy. Obama relied on his base and GOTV, Trump is relying on a different base. The question is if he can put in a good GOTV strategy.
 
berbatrick said:
Why does he need non-whites? He is getting unprecedented numbers of whites, especially non-degree white males. I respect it as a political strategy. Obama relied on his base and GOTV, Trump is relying on a different base. The question is if he can put in a good GOTV strategy.
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You can't win the Presidency without a big chunk of the non white vote. Look how Romney fared with African Americans and Latinos in 2012 - Trump is doing far worse. There simply aren't enough white people to win the Presidency without also winning a sizable chunk of minorities as well anymore.
 
Raoul said:
You can't win the Presidency without a big chunk of the non white vote. Look how Romney fared with African Americans and Latinos in 2012 - Trump is doing far worse. There simply aren't enough white people to win the Presidency without also winning a sizable chunk of minorities as well anymore.
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Obama's percentage with Latinos (and African Americans) was far higher than Romney's with whites. If Trump plays his cards right, he can get a slightly higher percentage with whites and blacks to offset Latino losses.
 
berbatrick said:
Obama's percentage with Latinos (and African Americans) was far higher than Romney's with whites. If Trump plays his cards right, he can get a slightly higher percentage with whites and blacks to offset Latino losses.
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Which is a fine theory, except the fact that he's doing much worse with college educated and white women than Romney did.

The Latino votes actually don't matter that much outside of FL, NV and NM. It can be offset with a Rust Bell sweep, but he's showing no signs of actually getting WI, MI or IL, which throws cold water on the whole thing.
 
berbatrick said:
Obama's percentage with Latinos (and African Americans) was far higher than Romney's with whites. If Trump plays his cards right, he can get a slightly higher percentage with whites and blacks to offset Latino losses.
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Which would have him doing no better than Romney. He needs more Latinos than he is getting now and also there's no evidence that many more whites will flock to him since many of them are also Dems.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Which is a fine theory, except the fact that he's doing much worse with college educated and white women than Romney did.

The Latino votes actually don't matter that much outside of FL, NV and NM. It can be offset with a Rust Bell sweep, but he's showing no signs of actually getting WI, MI or IL, which throws cold water on the whole thing.
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I see the same path - his "swing states" will be different from last time. Btw, NH was one of the closer results last time. He should target PA, Iowa, Michigan, NH, and Virginia (and of course Ohio) from Obama's states. He'll be safe in NC which was the only swing state Romney won. She could sneak in Arizona and Utah and finish him off before he gets started though.
 
Hmm... Thought Trump was angry about politicians on the take?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-university-investigations_us_5751a6efe4b0eb20fa0dae66

--One lawyer who worked closely in the investigation called the probe into Trump U. “an extremely strong case,” and records show that everything was set for a lawsuit unless the business agreed to a $5.4 million settlement with the state.

But then... nothing happened. The office dropped the case. And curiously, Trump donated $35,000 to Abbott’s bid for the governorship in 2013, as reported by The Associated Press. (Coincidentally or not, that’s how much the “elite” Trump U. seminar package cost.)--

--The other report, from the Orlando Sentinel, may be more egregious because it suggests the Florida attorney general, Pam Bondi, agreed in 2013 to give up her own probe of Trump Institute — a local affiliate of Trump U. — after the businessman made a $25,000 donation to her re-election bid.

Bondi actually knew about Schneiderman’s lawsuit in New York and briefly considered joining it, promising to look into similar allegations from Floridians who said they’d been scammed. But three days later, a political action committee that supported Bondi received a check from Trump, and then nothing came of the investigation.--
 
MrMarcello said:
Hmm... Thought Trump was angry about politicians on the take?
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Only for show. He loves it really, he has built his career on backhanders and kickbacks to the right and wrong people. Just look at all the ties to the mob, and all the reports of people trying to sue him or accuse him of things only to be paid to be quiet. His ex wife and her accusations of rape and battery for one!

He will say anything to sound and look good to the people he is trying to con. The only difference is he now trying to con everyone, especially white Americans. The actual truth is he couldn't give a feck about them either. He wont discriminate when money is involved, he will take it from anyone, white black, Mexican, whatever. The same as he doesn't give a shit what colour anyone is when they work for him as long as it's cheaply. Everyone has a place, and that's beneath him. The truth is, the only colour he cares about, is green.
 
Spock said:
According to wiki (I know), fascism is a radical form authoritarian nationalism. We normally think of Nazism when we think of fascism and when we normally think of total war and death camps when we think of Nazism. But if you can extract total war and death camps from your mind when you think of fascism you're left with the elements of a regime that's not too many steps removed away from where Trump wants to take us, should the American people be so insane as to elect this toxic waste pit of a human being.
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It is pretty far actually. Fascism in whatever form it has taken, whether it be Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy or Franco's Spain, always has a few common themes the most universal of which is a single dictatorial leader limited by no democratic institutions. That's a huge contrast to the US and any changes the US might see under Trump. Calling Trump a fascist or anything similar to a fascist is hyperbole and should be recognized as such.
 
MrMarcello said:
Hmm... Thought Trump was angry about politicians on the take?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-university-investigations_us_5751a6efe4b0eb20fa0dae66

--One lawyer who worked closely in the investigation called the probe into Trump U. “an extremely strong case,” and records show that everything was set for a lawsuit unless the business agreed to a $5.4 million settlement with the state.

But then... nothing happened. The office dropped the case. And curiously, Trump donated $35,000 to Abbott’s bid for the governorship in 2013, as reported by The Associated Press. (Coincidentally or not, that’s how much the “elite” Trump U. seminar package cost.)--

--The other report, from the Orlando Sentinel, may be more egregious because it suggests the Florida attorney general, Pam Bondi, agreed in 2013 to give up her own probe of Trump Institute — a local affiliate of Trump U. — after the businessman made a $25,000 donation to her re-election bid.

Bondi actually knew about Schneiderman’s lawsuit in New York and briefly considered joining it, promising to look into similar allegations from Floridians who said they’d been scammed. But three days later, a political action committee that supported Bondi received a check from Trump, and then nothing came of the investigation.--
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Not that it would matter to Republicans or any of his supports, but . . .

 
Akshay said:
It is pretty far actually. Fascism in whatever form it has taken, whether it be Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy or Franco's Spain, always has a few common themes the most universal of which is a single dictatorial leader limited by no democratic institutions. That's a huge contrast to the US and any changes the US might see under Trump. Calling Trump a fascist or anything similar to a fascist is hyperbole and should be recognized as such.
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Pretty far as it looks right now, of course, but if Trump were to actually pursue the deportation of 11 million human beings, including their American citizen children and to identify, monitor and intervene in the movement of American Muslims the slope toward fascism would be quite slippery.

This last week Herr Trump stated very clear terms that a "Mexican", which he meant a Mexican-American, judge could not possibly be objective in the handling of a lawsuit against Trump. There was nothing about the individual judge (Gonzalo Curiel, born in Indiana and a warrior prosecutor earlier in his career) himself which indicated a possible conflict of interest, such as past personal interactions or an improper financial interest. It's hard to overstate what an abomination Trump's attack against "the Mexican" really is.

Fascism? No. But Trump's heinous brand of ethnic denigration and white nationalism approaches fascism, though well short of the total war and death camps that Hitler brought the world. We would be wise to tell this rotting turd to go back to his vile tower.
 
Fascism is not just nationalism + racism.

Btw: Where is all the outrage about Obama, who trumps(:wenger:)all the previous governments by quite a margin, when it comes to the number of deportations?
 
Spock said:
Pretty far as it looks right now, of course, but if Trump were to actually pursue the deportation of 11 million human beings, including their American citizen children and to identify, monitor and intervene in the movement of American Muslims the slope toward fascism would be quite slippery.

This last week Herr Trump stated very clear terms that a "Mexican", which he meant a Mexican-American, judge could not possibly be objective in the handling of a lawsuit against Trump. There was nothing about the individual judge (Gonzalo Curiel, born in Indiana and a warrior prosecutor earlier in his career) himself which indicated a possible conflict of interest, such as past personal interactions or an improper financial interest. It's hard to overstate what an abomination Trump's attack against "the Mexican" really is.

Fascism? No. But Trump's heinous brand of ethnic denigration and white nationalism approaches fascism, though well short of the total war and death camps that Hitler brought the world. We would be wise to tell this rotting turd to go back to his vile tower.
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Yes, the statements that Trump comes out with are fairly ridiculous. I have no problem with calling his politics abominable.

I don't think he'd ever manage that deportation though, or anything close to it. In fact I highly doubt that border closing fence would even get built and manned, because the resources required would simply be staggering. It is pretty much just all about the votes. Most likely a few hundred miles of fence will be erected, there will be more pressure put on big employers like Walmart to ensure workers have the proper papers, and some laws making it harder for illegal immigrants to drive / have bank accounts / etc. Nothing that didn't happen under the Obama administration.
 
PedroMendez said:
Fascism is not just nationalism + racism.

Btw: Where is all the outrage about Obama, who trumps(:wenger:)all the previous governments by quite a margin, when it comes to the number of deportations?
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Not just number of deportations. Number of whistleblowers arrested and harassed (often for absolutely trivial offences). The extra-judicial status of drones being used on US citizens, something all 3 candidates approve of (I get the administration's POV here but there needs to be more of a debate before every word of the constitution is thrown away for convenience)
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/nov/02/obama-civil-liberties-history
 
PedroMendez said:
Fascism is not just nationalism + racism.

Btw: Where is all the outrage about Obama, who trumps(:wenger:)all the previous governments by quite a margin, when it comes to the number of deportations?
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Yeah, funny thing. Obama has been deporter-in-chief, and many studies say more Mexicans have left than have come in during his presidency. Which makes it all the more puzzling why Mexican immigration has become such a yuuuge deal. I guess the right wing, for lack of ideas, needs something to rally around.
 
Akshay said:
Yes, the statements that Trump comes out with are fairly ridiculous. I have no problem with calling his politics abominable.

I don't think he'd ever manage that deportation though, or anything close to it. In fact I highly doubt that border closing fence would even get built and manned, because the resources required would simply be staggering. It is pretty much just all about the votes. Most likely a few hundred miles of fence will be erected, there will be more pressure put on big employers like Walmart to ensure workers have the proper papers, and some laws making it harder for illegal immigrants to drive / have bank accounts / etc. Nothing that didn't happen under the Obama administration.
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"Ridiculous" doesn't capture the full sense of what Trump is really saying. A ridiculous statement would be something like "Ted Cruz's had something to do with JFKs assassination." or denying that McCain is a war hero because he was a prisoner of war. Those are the statements of a man with the mind of a child, but there's nothing particularly pre-fascist about them.

Yes, you "don't think" he would proceed with the deportation of 11 million human beings, but you're not really sure, are you? I'm sure he would try, but I'm also sure the courts would never allow it and that we would be embroiled in a constitutional crisis over it. There's no way at this point that Trump could walk back his proposals to build a huge wall (we already have one), deport 11m human beings, track the movement of American Muslims and ban the entry of Muslims in the United States. These are core promises he has made to his voters. At each point he will be blocked by the courts and he will personally attack judges who rule against him. If we can't bear the thought of calling this fascism, or at least authoritarian nationalism, I'm sure we can find another term that would adequately describe this shredding of constitutional norms and respect for human rights.
 
Not a big fan of throwing around the "fascism," "nazi," "Hitler" schtick, even for Trump, but if you accept this checklist, it certainly sounds pretty spot on for the most part of a certain American political party and the man they´ve elected to lead them. In fact, Mussolini wanted to call fascism, "corporatism.

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed
to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
 
Spock said:
Yes, you "don't think" he would proceed with the deportation of 11 million human beings, but you're not really sure, are you? I'm sure he would try, but I'm also sure the courts would never allow it and that we would be embroiled in a constitutional crisis over it. There's no way at this point that Trump could walk back his proposals to build a huge wall (we already have one), deport 11m human beings, track the movement of American Muslims and ban the entry of Muslims in the United States. These are core promises he has made to his voters. At each point he will be blocked by the courts and he will personally attack judges who rule against him. If we can't bear the thought of calling this fascism, or at least authoritarian nationalism, I'm sure we can find another term that would adequately describe this shredding of constitutional norms and respect for human rights.
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It's not just a matter of the courts, the bills to do those kinds of things would probably never make it out of the House and definitely stand no chance in the Senate. It doesn't matter what Trump has promised as the President doesn't have the power to make good on promises like that. I think he will continue to spew his rhetoric and blame his political enemies for his failure to deliver, but I don't think he'd go as far as a Watergate for example. And its attempts at undermining the democratic process that I'd most consider fascist. Of course, I could be wrong.
 
Akshay said:
It's not just a matter of the courts, the bills to do those kinds of things would probably never make it out of the House and definitely stand no chance in the Senate. It doesn't matter what Trump has promised as the President doesn't have the power to make good on promises like that. I think he will continue to spew his rhetoric and blame his political enemies for his failure to deliver, but I don't think he'd go as far as a Watergate for example. And its attempts at undermining the democratic process that I'd most consider fascist. Of course, I could be wrong.
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In his mind, Trump doesn't need legislation to deport the Mexicans or ban Muslim entry into the US. He will assert executive authority and proceed until he is blocked by the courts. Or perhaps by the better judgment of his advisors, but then he would have to explain to his core supporters why he has abandoned his core promises. He can certainly do that and I'm sure he wouldn't give a shit what his supporters think, but what we're now saying is that Trump won't pursue policies he has campaigned, that nothing he has said he can be believed.

If he did follow through on his promises, he would be what I would call (awkwardly, I admit) a pre-fascist.

If he abandoned his promises then we would have to wait and see what his a policy agenda consists of. He may be a conventional liberal, a conservative or whatever. But based on what we know of him now, it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to describe his policies as fascist.

As for Watergate, I doubt he would orchestrate break ins of the offices of his political opposition. But I have no doubt he would use the IRS and the DOJ to crush his political opponents.
 
Spock said:
As for Watergate, I doubt he would orchestrate break ins of the offices of his political opposition.
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Only because he's too fecking dim to think of it, however, I have no doubt in my mind that he would do ANYTHING to get whatever he wants. I mean he has battered and raped his own wife and bullied her and paid her off to never mention it again. He has spoken about wanting to feck his own daughter, and people seriously still pretend that he has morals or limits and a conscience? It's fecking laughable, he clearly has none.
 
langster said:
Only because he's too fecking dim to think of it, however, I have no doubt in my mind that he would do ANYTHING to get whatever he wants. I mean he has battered and raped his own wife and bullied her and paid her off to never mention it again. He has spoken about wanting to feck his own daughter, and people seriously still pretend that he has morals or limits and a conscience? It's fecking laughable, he clearly has none.
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I know the US has a long history of reprobates who have sought high political office, but I cannot think of anyone who has stood anywhere close to Donald Trump as a wretched cretin.

But what's even worse is how many Americans have eaten his shit and love its taste.
 
Spock said:
I know the US has a long history of reprobates who have sought high political office, but I cannot think of anyone who has stood anywhere close to Donald Trump as a wretched cretin.

But what's even worse is how many Americans have eaten his shit and love its taste.
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Palin was very close as VP. She wasn't nearly as vile as Trump but was far more of an idiot, very naive at this level whereas Trump is a calculated charlatan.

I'm sure there were a few heinous persons in GEs back in the day.
 
Raoul said:
I still think Trump will implode. He can't get away with going after the "Mexican Judge" and pointing to "My African American" and not estrange himself from the people he needs (ie non-whites) to win. He seems to be doubling down instead of stepping back, so things will definitely reach a head at some point between now and Nov.
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We've seen that over the past couple of weeks. He doesn't have the temperament and a cool head on his shoulders. I guess, Hillary it is.

pukeface
 
Suedesi said:
We've seen that over the past couple of weeks. He doesn't have the temperament and a cool head on his shoulders. I guess, Hillary it is.

pukeface
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I've noticed her numbers are improving against him ever since he started with the cringy Mexican judge bs. Even the GOP establishment types (Ryan, McConnell etc) are starting to buckle in their support now.
 
Spock said:
Pretty far as it looks right now, of course, but if Trump were to actually pursue the deportation of 11 million human beings, including their American citizen children and to identify, monitor and intervene in the movement of American Muslims the slope toward fascism would be quite slippery.

This last week Herr Trump stated very clear terms that a "Mexican", which he meant a Mexican-American, judge could not possibly be objective in the handling of a lawsuit against Trump. There was nothing about the individual judge (Gonzalo Curiel, born in Indiana and a warrior prosecutor earlier in his career) himself which indicated a possible conflict of interest, such as past personal interactions or an improper financial interest. It's hard to overstate what an abomination Trump's attack against "the Mexican" really is.

Fascism? No. But Trump's heinous brand of ethnic denigration and white nationalism approaches fascism, though well short of the total war and death camps that Hitler brought the world. We would be wise to tell this rotting turd to go back to his vile tower.
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That was a pretty idiotic thing to say. Notice his children are Slovenian-American or Slovak-American - are they less American than this judge for example? He certainly doesn't want to go down that path.
 
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Spock said:
In his mind, Trump doesn't need legislation to deport the Mexicans or ban Muslim entry into the US. He will assert executive authority and proceed until he is blocked by the courts. Or perhaps by the better judgment of his advisors, but then he would have to explain to his core supporters why he has abandoned his core promises. He can certainly do that and I'm sure he wouldn't give a shit what his supporters think, but what we're now saying is that Trump won't pursue policies he has campaigned, that nothing he has said he can be believed.

If he did follow through on his promises, he would be what I would call (awkwardly, I admit) a pre-fascist.

If he abandoned his promises then we would have to wait and see what his a policy agenda consists of. He may be a conventional liberal, a conservative or whatever. But based on what we know of him now, it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to describe his policies as fascist.

As for Watergate, I doubt he would orchestrate break ins of the offices of his political opposition. But I have no doubt he would use the IRS and the DOJ to crush his political opponents.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't deporting illegal immigrants be simply a matter of following and applying existing laws?

As for Muslim ban, doesn't US CBP have the option to deny entry to anyone they see fit?
 
Raoul said:
I've noticed her numbers are improving against him ever since he started with the cringy Mexican judge bs. Even the GOP establishment types (Ryan, McConnell etc) are starting to buckle in their support now.
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She's played it very smart - she has just given the spotlight to Trump, who can't help hitting the self-destruct button.
 
Suedesi said:
She's played it very smart - she has just given the spotlight to Trump, who can't help hitting the self-destruct button.
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That's what must be frustrating to the GOP establishment who just within the past two weeks swallowed their collective pride and endorsed him, only to turn around and randomly spew out the Mexican judge and My African American stuff. They must be bricking it right about now.
 
Raoul said:
That's what must be frustrating to the GOP establishment who just within the past two weeks swallowed their collective pride and endorsed him, only to turn around and randomly spew out the Mexican judge and My African American stuff. They must be bricking it right about now.
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In many ways this shows, that Trump was just lucky to receive so much support. He didn´t plan any of it and just acted like the idiot he is and – by random chance - voters decided that he´ll be their protest candidate. His lack of self-control and his weird character don´t allow him to act strategically.
 
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