2016 US Presidential Elections | Trump Wins

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Since you made the effort...

The biggest single issue that I don't see Sanders overcome in the G.E is his tax plan. No one has ever won the presidency on a tax-raising on all income levels platform. Sure, McGovern's loss can be chalked up to intraparty fighting, but Mondale 49 states defeat is the model we are talking about. Despite the changing social norms, Americans don't take kindly in paying more taxes and having more government oversight (get off my healthcare!!!). I think he can run a competitive campaign against Trump but the latter despite his demagoguery can still occupy a somewhat centrist position due to his extremely elusive positions, while Sanders doesn't have that luxury. Such scenario doesn't happen with Clinton because you just can't out-center her.

The second thing is the make up of the electorate. McCain was not an inspiring candidate, got mired with W's dump and had the media whack the shite out of him for picking Palin. He got 46% of the votes.
In this age of partisanship, I don't buy the argument that a candidate as extreme as Sanders can entice Republicans to vote for him, and while he does well among independents, it's worth noting that the GOP primary turn out have been consistently higher this cycle. Independents are themselves not all centrists, in fact most of them have a political leaning considered fringe to both Parties. So there's a more than good to fair chance he will lose the centrists, motivate the far right to turn out while only carry the far left himself. This argument is supported by his losses in all the big swing states so far (OH, FL, VA).

And finally, assuming that against all odds, he beat Clinton fair and square to the nomination, carry the general and take back the Senate, you still can't take back the House and State legislatures this year. He will get gridlocked to death and in 2 years the GOP will read it's head again. A President Rubio or Cruz in 2020 will pretty much mean that all states legislatures, majority of governorships and the House remain in the GOP's control for another 10 years. Is that a risk you are willing to take? Clinton will take her half loaves, but she'll at least have something tangible to run on. Political revolution doesn't sound as appealing the second time after 4 years of no achievement.


First of all, if you start with snark, you can't expect better in reply.

About the rest of your post:

You can't have it both ways.
In paragraph 1, he's Walter Mondale II, able only to hold onto Vermont while the rest of the country resoundingly rejects him. In paragraph 3, higher partisanship means constant voters (and safe states). So are you saying MA, for example, will abandon him for Trump?

Secondly, I get that his numbers will fall. Have you checked his numbers of late though? It's +16.5, +10.1, +2.7. The 1st 2 aren't razor thin elections decided in Ohio. These are in fact the kind of blowouts you are suggesting he will be subject to. And these numbers have improved throughout the cycle. He started off negative v/s Bush ffs.
So, yes, he will fall. How much of that (ENORMOUS) lead is going to be lost to Repub attacks? How many women are going to vote for Trump? And moderates for Cruz, who shares his stage with gay-killing advocates? Have you seen their numbers of late, and this is without the Dems having to touch them with a single attack...
I think Kasich will beat him - but he will clobber Hillary, so it's best not to think about it. He is the only candidate with favourables approaching Bernie's, he has a lock on Ohio, and is seen as moderate by the media,without her baggage.

Bernie's losses in swing states happened on the backs of Dem voters, not independents. He won more independent support than her in Ohio for sure, and I think FL* and VA were closed. Again, are you saying Dems will stay home when Obama, etc. hammer home the message about the enemy - Cruz or Trump? At the same time as you're talking about polarisation and people not abandoning their parties...

I was told by Ubik/you some weeks ago that turnout means nothing. Just as I was told that H2Hs are non-predictive. Right uptil now, when turnout means something and H2H trends are important (but his are not). As I said before, there's no problems acknowledging love for centrism, and for her. Now you enjoy her growing lead over Trump. But dismissing the amazingly consistent numbers he's generated in the very same breath is hypocritical.


None of the discussion has been about his presidency. I wrote that I don't expect his domestic agenda to pass (unless the Sanders-Trump numbers hold, and he gets all 3 branches). I expect that he will not compromise on pipelines. And I expect that he will be a restrained commander-in-chief. Both those things are to do with executive actions, and both are areas where I'm confident Hillary will make the wrong choice. Based on his public statements, I also expect him to defend Roe v Wade without compromises, while she has indicated a willingness to undo a somewhat landmark decision.
I have no idea why you think that she will win re-election in 2020 (or that he won't). That's just pure speculation. I can speculate about the orgasmic prospect of him winning, stepping down in favour of Warren, and her winning 2 terms for 12 years of progressive rule. I can speculate about how a politician as loathed as Hillary will do in the general when she's not up against an orange misogynist douchebag. But I have no idea what will happen.



*He isn't winning FL anyway though. It's demographically all wrong for him. On the other hand, the H2H polls released during the Utah and Arizona primaries were interesting, and, of course, he was doing better than her due to independents. Ohio was bad for both, which is alarming.
 
The Boss cancels a gig in North Carolina http://m.brucespringsteen.net/



Just taking it a day at a time mate. Feel like shit today, had a bad one to be honest, but been a bit better overall this week I think. Managed to get out for a couple of short walks and had a couple of days where I felt almost normal. Just getting bored as feck now. I really want my driving licence back, and feeling a bit imprisoned a lot of the time. Just got to take it easy though, it's not going to be quick. Can't complain though really, just lucky as feck to be alive. :D

Glad you're feeling better overall, recovery is tough work! Sounds like you will be out and about in no time and your attitude is great! Makes recovery much easier when you can stay positive and take it a step at a time. Glad you're still with us even if you are a cnut :smirk:
 
Trump is only about 50 delegates from checkmating Cruz out of reaching 1,237. If he gets most of the NY delegates, he will make it mathematically impossible for Cruz to beat him, which should imo change the perception of Cruz's viability in the upcoming states and give Trump stronger numbers to where he may actually reach 1,237.
 
Trump is only about 50 delegates from checkmating Cruz out of reaching 1,237. If he gets most of the NY delegates, he will make it mathematically impossible for Cruz to beat him, which should imo change the perception of Cruz's viability in the upcoming states and give Trump stronger numbers to where he may actually reach 1,237.
Noticed a lot of people saying Paul Ryan is de facto running for President right now. If you're the GOP, it's turning into a question of who's going to lose in the least damaging way. Trump is Trump. Cruz is murderable. Kasich has been rejected. Ditto Mitt. I wouldn't put it past them to just go "NOPE" and stick a neutral face in to get beat without damaging the party too much in November.
 
New poll, interesting result:

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She has a 3-point lead in definites, but 15 points in the consider more than make up for that. And it reiterates that Kasich is the danger, and Cruz is within a small meltdown of her numbers.

Edit: and since 538 had said the trend between Jan and April is important:
http://imgur.com/cBDWebH (he and Kasich go up; Hillary, Trump go down)
 
Noticed a lot of people saying Paul Ryan is de facto running for President right now. If you're the GOP, it's turning into a question of who's going to lose in the least damaging way. Trump is Trump. Cruz is murderable. Kasich has been rejected. Ditto Mitt. I wouldn't put it past them to just go "NOPE" and stick a neutral face in to get beat without damaging the party too much in November.

I see three competing factions at a contested convention - the Trump/Tea Party coalition, the Cruz/Talk Radio conservatives, and the Establishment GOP. If Trump gets near 1237 but still narrowly misses, the pressure for the rest of the party to capitulate will be immense, with possible demonstrations, intimidation, and riots in the offing. If Cruz's faction attempts to slyly pick off delegates behind the scenes leading up to the convention, Trump and his people will rebel and claim fraud, which will only throw things into further chaos. As for the establishment faction, they will have difficulty justifying nominating someone like Ryan, Kasich, or Romney because of a lack of popular support among the broader GOP electorate. In the end, i think it will be Trump, in which case they will be fecked. Come to think of it if its Cruz, they will also be fecked because he's polling comparably as low as Trump and the Trump backers will never support him in the Gen. Their only shot is Ryan or Kasich, but neither has a shot at getting it because the Trump people will revolt and claim fraud. So basically, the GOP are fecked with few viable options that can prevent the WH going to the Dems.
 
Glad you're feeling better overall, recovery is tough work! Sounds like you will be out and about in no time and your attitude is great! Makes recovery much easier when you can stay positive and take it a step at a time. Glad you're still with us even if you are a cnut :smirk:

Thanks mate, feelings mutual and love you too, ya great big wazzock. x
 
First of all, if you start with snark, you can't expect better in reply.

About the rest of your post:

You can't have it both ways.
In paragraph 1, he's Walter Mondale II, able only to hold onto Vermont while the rest of the country resoundingly rejects him. In paragraph 3, higher partisanship means constant voters (and safe states). So are you saying MA, for example, will abandon him for Trump?




I was told by Ubik/you some weeks ago that turnout means nothing. Just as I was told that H2Hs are non-predictive. Right uptil now, when turnout means something and H2H trends are important (but his are not). As I said before, there's no problems acknowledging love for centrism, and for her. Now you enjoy her growing lead over Trump. But dismissing the amazingly consistent numbers he's generated in the very same breath is hypocritical.


I have no idea why you think that she will win re-election in 2020 (or that he won't). That's just pure speculation. I can speculate about the orgasmic prospect of him winning, stepping down in favour of Warren, and her winning 2 terms for 12 years of progressive rule. I can speculate about how a politician as loathed as Hillary will do in the general when she's not up against an orange misogynist douchebag. But I have no idea what will happen.

I'm just answering these 3 points because I feel you misunderstood me somewhat.

1) he's Walter Mondale mk. 2, but the point is not about the margin of the loss. I've never said that. The point is his tax plan is a glass jaw that hurt him with centrists to a degree that he has little chance to compete in big swing states. How is it having it both ways? When have I said he will carry only Vermont? MA and NY won't go red, but states like IL or WI might. And his socialist tax raising baggage means that he doesn't have the ability to target red states that with changing demographics might go Dem like AZ or GA. The day of shut out at presidential election is over. Even Hitler wouldn't get only his home state.

2) There are trends that we can observe. Lower turnout in the Dems primaries per se isn't inhibitive to the party's prospect in the fall, but Sander's success or lack thereof is directly tied to his appeal with independents. My reasoning in this instance, and yes feel free to disagree, is that a significant portion of Trump and Sanders support are independents, so while turn out as a whole isn't indicative, the number of votes each gather is, and Trump seems to be doing better. He's actually the one who 'we win when voters turn out is high'. They are drawing from the same well, with Trump getting that little bit more. So in a theoretical match up between the two, due to their hyper partisan nature, both will be unable to turn the other's base and the election is decided by their appeal with the middle. H2Hs and turn outs really doesn't mean much at this stage because things change very quickly in politics (Howard Dean's scream), but there are certain educated guesses we can make using them.

3) this one is easier to answer. The whole of Bernie's appeal is to bring change, it's Obama campaign all over again, only less effective. So if he gets the presidency and fails to push through any meaningful domestic agenda, what does he have to make a case for re-election? For that matter, Clinton isn't a sure thing. She just stand a better chance due to her platform being that much more malleable. I actually think by 2020 the Dems might try to run Julian Castro instead of her. Point being, she's more likely to get something done during the 2016-2020 term, and it means better prospect for the party. Of course you are right that all of this is speculation, but again, educated guesses. Obama got 11 million votes more than McCain in 08,by '12 it was 5. He still enjoyed the incumbent's advantage, but his first term not living up to expectation did depress the support to some degrees.

Re: snark, my apologies it came out that way. I saw your comment prior to the edit. I meant that since you took the effort later to engage I'd response in kind. Must admit though that I've been much more aggressive than usual last few days. I feel like shit physically and the Sanders's campaign turn for the worse while making me feel vindicated, its also distasteful to me personally due to my experiences. Will try to watch my tone in the future.
 
I see three competing factions at a contested convention - the Trump/Tea Party coalition, the Cruz/Talk Radio conservatives, and the Establishment GOP. If Trump gets near 1237 but still narrowly misses, the pressure for the rest of the party to capitulate will be immense, with possible demonstrations, intimidation, and riots in the offing. If Cruz's faction attempts to slyly pick off delegates behind the scenes leading up to the convention, Trump and his people will rebel and claim fraud, which will only throw things into further chaos. As for the establishment faction, they will have difficulty justifying nominating someone like Ryan, Kasich, or Romney because of a lack of popular support among the broader GOP electorate. In the end, i think it will be Trump, in which case they will be fecked. Come to think of it if its Cruz, they will also be fecked because he's polling comparably as low as Trump and the Trump backers will never support him in the Gen. Their only shot is Ryan or Kasich, but neither has a shot at getting it because the Trump people will revolt and claim fraud. So basically, the GOP are fecked with few viable options that can prevent the WH going to the Dems.
Pretty much how I see it. Never good when your fallback option is the Zodiac killer.
 
So Trump insults the Pope and then he invites Bernie to the Vatican. What a strange election this has been and we are only in April. When you think about how many people Trump has insulted and upset, and what he has said and done, it's insane to think he is still in the race, let alone leading. Roughly how many Catholics are there in the USA? I know there is a large Irish population spread around the country, and especially in NYC, but how many more are there?
 
Tis true, we all want a job, good roads, low crime, etc.

The divisiveness is killing this country and libs talking about dumb fecker rednecks is just as bad, I suppose as rural folk moaning about faggy college-educated city nancy-boys.

My job in agriculture enabled me to work with farmers and cattlemen. That is one of the reason I travelled to all those states. Great fun.

In no way were they dismissive of NY or CA people. They loved what they did. Proud of themselves as the people who fed the nation.
But surprisingly a fair number of them were Democrats for one reason or another.

One of the cattlemen said he always voted Democrat because his mother kept reminding him that FDR saved their farm.
But this other cattleman said he voted democrat, even though he did well under the Bush Presidency was because, he thought about that single mother trying to feed her child. He had heart. The most imporatnt thing that is missing from people who dont give a damn about people other than themselves. I remember telling him. God Bless you for saying that. But I asked him to consider an economic reason. How many more cattle could he grow and sell if more people could afford to eat beef rather than settle for chicken.

The difference is simply culture and what people have been conditioned to accept.


Voting the lesser of two evils, still gives you evil.

If a Trump or Cruz becomes President it is the Democratic party that has to be blamed for giving such a flawed candidate.

Many people do not understand basic economics, nor the fact, candidates like Jeb or Hillary use a combination of scare tactics and good ol lies to propogate the myths.

They are only interested in power for powers sake. They are willing to let many die..in vain.

They are not ignorant of this.

To vote for people like this IS the true evil.
 
Yet in the same breath he insists on bombing them back to the Stone Age.

I doubt that the way to defeat ISIS would be to elect an evangelical dominionist theocrat.

It is certainly the way to bring about the end times doomsday scenario ISIL and Cruz envision. Good vs Evil. Christianity vs Islam.

Cruz is far more dangerous. The man believes he's been chosen by god.
 
Wait, the godless communist jew is god's candidate now?

Yup, it appears so.

Such a strange nomination race this year. Truly bizarre. Even that moron Michele Bachmann was trolling Hillary Clinton earlier for not being able to use her subway pass properly. You know you have fecked up bigtime when an idiot like that can mock you. :lol:
 
The author is a university professor and infrequent columnist for WaPo. A quick Google search show that he's written about 5 articles for them in the last 6 years. Are you saying he was hired by them to do a hit job on Sanders?

The cult of personality surrounding the man is becoming absurd.

The way his supporting base reacts to everything has a bit of Ron Paulites about it. It's almost completely turned me off to Sanders. I truly enjoyed his appearances on Real Time with Bill Maher and was interested in his campaign in the beginning. Then the crazies flocked.
 
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So am I understanding this right? You're not bothered about Bernie's policies or what he could do for you and everyone else in the country, rather more put off by how some of his followers behave? That makes no sense at all.
 
The way his supporting base reacts to everything has a bit of Ron Paulites about it. It's almost completely turned me off to Sanders. I truly enjoyed his appearances on Real Time with Bill Maher and was interested in his campaign in the beginning. Then the crazies flocked.

So am I understanding this right? You're not bothered about Bernie's policies or what he could do for you and everyone else in the country, rather more put off by how some of his followers behave? That makes no sense at all.

Completely agreed langster.
 

Except the Vatican itself didnt invite to him. It's like being extended an invite to a conference by the State Department and claim that you'll be meeting POTUS.

This is not Bernie's fault, but it screams incompetence. You can't let your candidate going on national television and say patently untrue thing in a tense period like this and expect to get away with it.
 
Except the Vatican itself didnt invite to him. It's like being extended an invite to a conference by the State Department and claim that you'll be meeting POTUS.

This is not Bernie's fault, but it screams incompetence. You can't let your candidate going on national television and say patently untrue thing in a tense period like this and expect to get away with it.

Bernie didn't mention the Pope in terms of the invitation (I'm invited by the Vatican to speak at the Vatican.) After which he praised the Pope.


Speaking of incompetent campaigning:

I guess he forgot his wife 'evolved' her position and apologised.

I'll reply to the long post tomorrow...
 
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I see three competing factions at a contested convention - the Trump/Tea Party coalition, the Cruz/Talk Radio conservatives, and the Establishment GOP. If Trump gets near 1237 but still narrowly misses, the pressure for the rest of the party to capitulate will be immense, with possible demonstrations, intimidation, and riots in the offing. If Cruz's faction attempts to slyly pick off delegates behind the scenes leading up to the convention, Trump and his people will rebel and claim fraud, which will only throw things into further chaos. As for the establishment faction, they will have difficulty justifying nominating someone like Ryan, Kasich, or Romney because of a lack of popular support among the broader GOP electorate. In the end, i think it will be Trump, in which case they will be fecked. Come to think of it if its Cruz, they will also be fecked because he's polling comparably as low as Trump and the Trump backers will never support him in the Gen. Their only shot is Ryan or Kasich, but neither has a shot at getting it because the Trump people will revolt and claim fraud. So basically, the GOP are fecked with few viable options that can prevent the WH going to the Dems.
I don't think its anywhere near that clear cut. Establishment will probably end up supporting Cruz since they still prefer him by far to Trump. It'll be one of the two, depending on how close Trump comes on the first ballot. Agree that if he's very narrowly missing the party will most likely have to fold to him. As for the general, Clinton and Sanders have plenty of negatives as well so no one is going to be coming into the general unscarred. Think Cruz, if he gets nominated, has a decent shot, especially vs Sanders. Anyway, just my 2c.
 
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