2016 US Presidential Elections | Trump Wins

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Well let's not pretend that every small business is a cash cow to its owners either. Their financial situation is a varied as the businesses themselves and the marketplaces they serve.

Some will get along just fine, others will not. That is not saying the increase is a bad thing, just pointing out the reality.

My parents owned a small business, in a small town for about a decade, the number of people who assumed we were rich because of it was ridiculous. The business was profitable, but they were not immune to all the things that can affect a businesses financial health. Raise prices too much and people would drive the extra distance to go to a competitor or just do without.


I'm saying I have seen businesses that were not profitable. But the owners looked after themselves alright. Its simply supply and demand. You have a point. Remember though that if your customers dont have money, they won't buy what you are selling.
 
If they could automate things, what's stopping them from doing so with or without a higher minimum wage? Automation automatically reduces a ton of overhead in terms of managing books, tax preparation, HR etc and reduces human error. We are far ways away from the local McDonald's franchisee automating things and human resource is still a valuable commodity.

That's the direction things are moving in. As technology improves and becomes less expensive, it will eliminate a boatload of jobs at the bottom end of society. Those people have to educate and get new and improved skill sets to improve with the changing dynamics.
 
I'm saying I have seen businesses that were not profitable. But the owners looked after themselves alright. Its simply supply and demand. You have a point. Remember though that if your customers cont have money, they won't buy what you are selling.

True but not all of a businesses customers are making minimum wage either, so it is not like suddenly the entire demand side will be flooded with extra cash. Yes business owners look after themselves alright, that is part of the point of having a business isn't it and who is taking all the risk? I mean if the owner is not making money, then why should they bother. But again you will find for many small businesses the line between profitability and going out of business is not very large, for others it will be a huge line.
 
Saw a story the other day (it might have been old), but it showed a number of Burger Kings and McDonald's in Florida had already replaced much of their front counter staff with automated order machines (multi-lingual of course). They would have one or two people working behind the counter whose sold job was to hand people their orders. No fuss about staff handling money, the machines take cash or card. Obviously it is not just the $15 wage driving the switch to these, but it will be interesting to see if the pace pick ups in states that go to the $15/hr rate.

Reminded me of when it was found out that at some drive-thru's the person you spoke to when you placed the order was actually a call center operator, who took the order, it was then sent to the restaurant where it was filled and delivered to you at the pick up window.

I saw this at a McD's in London. I couldn't believe it but it makes sense to get rid of counter staff and let machines do it. I was still blown away when I saw it as I thought yet again Europe is advancing quicker than the US.
 
I saw this at a McD's in London. I couldn't believe it but it makes sense to get rid of counter staff and let machines do it. I was still blown away when I saw it as I thought yet again Europe is advancing quicker than the US.

the cushion over there is the workers are not left destitute. health care? Education is also not a burden as it is here. The two main policies Bernie is fighting on.
 
yes. and they cannot afford it. so the government (which includes them) need to pay for it.

The key to an economy being prosperous is to increase demand at grassroots level. Eventually the investment in education and getting rid of unnecessary brokers like health insurance companies will drive growth.

Long-term national income levels are determined by output, not demand. Keynes just proposed that in situations where output is below its near-term potential, stimulating demand could in turn spur output back to its near-term potential. There's no long-term relation between demand and growth (which is why everyone tries to spend their way out of stagnation, and I look on suspiciously because maybe output is already at its near-term potential).

Although I do agree that education will boost productivity, and cutting-out intermediaries that add little economic value adds to long-term output. The question is whether or not the government can be a smaller intermediary than the existing structure (I won't actually defend any point on this, I've never read 5 minutes about US Healthcare).
 
Reminded me of when it was found out that at some drive-thru's the person you spoke to when you placed the order was actually a call center operator, who took the order, it was then sent to the restaurant where it was filled and delivered to you at the pick up window.
I went through one I could've sworn was just a voice-recognizing computer or else she had the most robotic manner of speaking ever.

I'm glad California is doing the minimum wage thing first as a test case. They're the worlds 7th largest economy on their own and one of the few large manufacturing centers left in the US, so we'll get to see the effects on that industry.
 
Its abundant and becoming less and less demanded. The economic equation might not add up to "living wage". To put it more practically, how exactly should an American doing the same job about 2 billion of the world's population can do expect to make more than the average of those 2 billion people?

Because that logic is very quickly going to be applied to almost every kind of job.
A decade ago the human genome was sequenced. It took literally hundreds of PhD students, postdocs, and professors* 13 years. Today a company will do it for you for $1000.
A machine learning software just beat a human in a skill game.


Almost as soon as the "lowest" class of employees are sacrificed to the machines, the next class will be gone. Who's to say Obama's job shouldn't be replaced by a machine and a technician to make sure it's running ok?

*not the kind of job you would think is under threat from automation.
 
Should we expect a living wage (wherever that falls) for low-skilled labor? (before anyone call me callous or worse, its a detached question but still relevant)

Theoretically everybody working 40+ hours a week should be able to feed themselves and have a roof over their heads at the very least. I don't know the answer to that question, and I've worked my fair share of low-skilled labour (have the scars to show for it). I guess ideally, people should have better access to training and education to find work with better pay.
 
the cushion over there is the workers are not left destitute. health care? Education is also not a burden as it is here. The two main policies Bernie is fighting on.


Think about the millions of angry people here who won't even be able to get a shitty job because of this coming automation.
 
this is the problem of looking at numbers in isolation.

History!

The history is that in the present day you have more options of where to locate any plant or service center than ever before, because of the education of general populations, communications and logistics infrastructure. In the 1960s the low-skilled US worker enjoyed a privileged situation because he was not competing with Asians, Latin Americans and Eastern Europeans for low-skilled jobs (he was also relatively better educated and healthier). In 2016 this is no longer the case, which is why wages for low-skilled workers in developed nations are under pressure, whilst those in developing countries have risen through the last 20 years.
 
Think about the millions of angry people here who won't even be able to get a shitty job because of this coming automation.

will answer you and what Marcelo says.

When people get angry, reactions have nothing to do with logic. That is why I mentioned 'history'.

Demand and Supply take on a whole different meaning. and it will not be very comfortable for those that are blamed!
 
I went through one I could've sworn was just a voice-recognizing computer or else she had the most robotic manner of speaking ever.

I'm glad California is doing the minimum wage thing first as a test case. They're the worlds 7th largest economy on their own and one of the few large manufacturing centers left in the US, so we'll get to see the effects on that industry.

Are they facing issues of industrial drain already? Thought I heard some neighboring states and Texas are pulling industries from California with favorable incentive programs? But it might have come from a questionable source, so take it at less than face value.
 
I saw this at a McD's in London. I couldn't believe it but it makes sense to get rid of counter staff and let machines do it. I was still blown away when I saw it as I thought yet again Europe is advancing quicker than the US.

Especially when a decent percentage of your front counter staff are students working part time, who don't give a shit (a wide variety of reasons including low pay behind that) and will have a high turnover rate.
 
Are they facing issues of industrial drain already? Thought I heard some neighboring states and Texas are pulling industries from California with favorable incentive programs? But it might have come from a questionable source, so take it at less than face value.
I'm sure they're facing a bit. Texas' low-wage low-regulatory system is very attractive to manufacturing and other industries (like oil).
 
Texas is working hard and succeeding at getting CA companies to relocate, but it faces the age old problem of people not really wanting to relocate there because it's...well...Texas!
 
Long-term national income levels are determined by output, not demand. Keynes just proposed that in situations where output is below its near-term potential, stimulating demand could in turn spur output back to its near-term potential. There's no long-term relation between demand and growth (which is why everyone tries to spend their way out of stagnation, and I look on suspiciously because maybe output is already at its near-term potential).

Although I do agree that education will boost productivity, and cutting-out intermediaries that add little economic value adds to long-term output. The question is whether or not the government can be a smaller intermediary than the existing structure (I won't actually defend any point on this, I've never read 5 minutes about US Healthcare).


sounds a lot like supply side economics to me. sorry don't buy into that at all.

as for health care. these companies own Congress who help hold down the average American who is being raped by them.
 
Theoretically everybody working 40+ hours a week should be able to feed themselves and have a roof over their heads at the very least. I don't know the answer to that question, and I've worked my fair share of low-skilled labour (have the scars to show for it). I guess ideally, people should have better access to training and education to find work with better pay.

That's one thing I honestly struggle with. I don't think the job market is unfair on an individual level. With good training/education, and a good attitude, I think there's money to be made. I'm in favor of a negative income tax that adds up to a min. living wage even for those that're unemployed though. I really don't think it looks good today or tomorrow for those that remain low-skilled. Subsidized education is also good, but this doesn't mean free college so kids can go study Art History.
 
Texas is working hard and succeeding at getting CA companies to relocate, but it faces the age old problem of people not really wanting to relocate there because it's...well...Texas!
Texas pretty much goes straight from dry, hot, and dusty to humid, hot, and tornadoes/hurricanes from West to East.

No state-income tax is nice, though...
 
Texas is working hard and succeeding at getting CA companies to relocate, but it faces the age old problem of people not really wanting to relocate there because it's...well...Texas!

God I hope so, Austin is already a mess traffic wise. I used to drive there over the weekend to meet the girlfriend and I could go from Houston to outskirts of Austin within 90 mins and it takes another 90 mins to reach her apartment from within Austin on a freaking Saturday morning.
 
Long-term national income levels are determined by output, not demand. Keynes just proposed that in situations where output is below its near-term potential, stimulating demand could in turn spur output back to its near-term potential. There's no long-term relation between demand and growth (which is why everyone tries to spend their way out of stagnation, and I look on suspiciously because maybe output is already at its near-term potential).


I was taught this, and believed it too, but decided to check it.

This doesn't seem to support it.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/1879399.pdf?_=1459281157334
The conclusion is a really angry anti-classical rant.
 
God I hope so, Austin is already a mess traffic wise. I used to drive there over the weekend to meet the girlfriend and I could go from Houston to outskirts of Austin within 90 mins and it takes another 90 mins to reach her apartment from within Austin on a freaking Saturday morning.

Have some friends who live outside Houston, in theory an hours drive and they hate the traffic around Houston. They say it never takes them less than 2hrs to get where ever they are going in Houston.
 
I was taught this, and believed it too, but decided to check it.

This doesn't seem to support it.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/1879399.pdf?_=1459281157334
The conclusion is a really angry anti-classical rant.

1 guys, 1970s... I'm not one to pretend like economics is a serious science and there are hard "truths". But I just stated what is generally accepted, and not significantly challenged. I don't think this argument falls into the camp of classical. I'd honestly admit if I were making an argument that has a significantly held opposing view (I avoid making those here anyways, and would phrase it differently)
 
Have some friends who live outside Houston, in theory an hours drive and they hate the traffic around Houston. They say it never takes them less than 2hrs to get where ever they are going in Houston.

yeah, I pay a small ransom to rent a studio apartment downtown just because its a 10 minute bike ride to work. I've seen people with families struggle with shit like van pooling to get to the city from suburbs. Moral of the story is don't have kids.
 
yeah, I pay a small ransom to rent a studio apartment downtown just because its a 10 minute bike ride to work. I've seen people with families struggle with shit like van pooling to get to the city from suburbs. Moral of the story is don't have kids.
No... The moral of the story is earn fek loads of money so you can still live central plus afford kids so you still have people to take care of you when you are decrepid
 
No... The moral of the story is earn fek loads of money so you can still live central plus afford kids so you still have people to take care of you when you are decrepid

Good luck with that. Unless by 'take care' you mean sending postcards when you're in a nursing home.
 
No... The moral of the story is earn fek loads of money so you can still live central plus afford kids so you still have people to take care of you when you are decrepid

The bigger issue for most is proximity to good school districts more than anything else. Even in Texas, where everyone wants a huge home, regular people wouldn't mind sacrificing lot size to buy a smaller home within the city but there's a thousand different issues on which school the kids can get into which I don't even know much about.

Also good old Houston has no zoning laws, so I've seen a middle school within 2 blocks of my home and a strip club, bars and adult stores within a quarter mile of it.
 
The bigger issue for most is proximity to good school districts more than anything else. Even in Texas, where everyone wants a huge home, regular people wouldn't mind sacrificing lot size to buy a smaller home within the city but there's a thousand different issues on which school the kids can get into which I don't even know much about.

Also good old Houston has no zoning laws, so I've seen a middle school within 2 blocks of my home and a strip club, bars and adult stores within a quarter mile of it.
Yeah in fairness I lived in America for a couple.of years but for many reasons couldn't see myself staying there
Got a nice big house in the UK in a village with fantastic transport links opposite a cracking school.
If I lived in the States I think socal is about the only place I could put up with
 


A bit old and I'm not entirely sure if it fits this thread, but loved it watching Joe Scarborough getting bitchslapped for being the ignorant blowhard he is.

Also show how left the US is when their supposedly left-est channel defends water boarding.


Not only is he far from left but he loves the dippers too, theres so much to not like about that wanker
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...tive-to-debate-hillary-clinton-is-ridiculous/

Seriously, it's as though Clinton forgot her own (and Obama's) campaign in 2008. Sanders has been far too civil, letting voters draw their own conclusions rather than use words like flip-flop, dishonest, etc. She continuously mentions her college financing plan which is literally the same as current policy as a new step forward, and he's not even called her out on it during debates.
 
Put that :devil: away.
That poll is either bullshit or the end of the world.

Trump favourable: +11 (51-40)
Among GOPers! Though that's still quite high for him. Possible reason:

Q16 Do you think Barack Obama was born in the United States?
Yes 36%
No 40%
Not sure 24%

Q17 Do you think Barack Obama is a Christian or a Muslim, or are you not sure?
Christian 20%
Muslim 52%
Not sure 28%
 
Among GOPers! Though that's still quite high for him. Possible reason:

Q16 Do you think Barack Obama was born in the United States?
Yes 36%
No 40%
Not sure 24%

Q17 Do you think Barack Obama is a Christian or a Muslim, or are you not sure?
Christian 20%
Muslim 52%
Not sure 28%


Oh, the heading said national survey, I didn't bother reading the fine print.
But that means they didn't survey any independents at all which accounts for the size of the lead (adding the caveat that the last PPP poll, in early February (around the time of NH), had her +21).
 
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