2016 US Presidential Elections | Trump Wins

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There just seems to be such a massive double standard. When American pilots bomb a primitive third world country in a totally unjust invasion in an undeclared war practically into the stone age, and done illegally in Cambodia´s and Laos´case . . . wow, what heroic flyboys. Pin medals on them. Let´s honor them in parades etc etc. Let´s almost vote them as president. They are the good guys! Who declared this "war" anyway?

Did John McCain or any of these other heroes ever walk among the dead and mutilated that they bombed? Or deeply question what they were doing? Did they have a moral choice to refuse to drop bombs on Vietnamese? I think they did. Was this really a duty? Was their carpet bombing with B52s a duty?

I´m sure all you English and your grandparents and parents will agree what heroes those in the Luftwaffen were and "how the country was at war and they did they´re duty and how of course they are heroes (sic)." And how all of Germany should be still honoring those brave young red blooded Germans.

And America wonders why they got their asses kicked in Vietnam (by real heroes in any objective sense of the definition) and their towers knocked down by the other guys´heroes. I´m sure all you McCain supporters will all agree what heroes those Vietnamese were and those hijackers were who gave up their lives for their cause and for doing their "duty."

While I understand the sentiment, can you think of a single country who doesn't treat their military veterans in the a similarly reverent way, outside of defeated civil revolutionaries or Nazi Germany? It's hardly a uniquely American trait, and thus hardly an objectively fair rant.
 
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McCain was born wealthy. He could have avoided service just like so many other chickenhawks like George Bush. He was also offered early release due to him being the son of an admiral. He didn't shirk his duty either time. Once you get past nobbys silly rant, it's pretty clear that almost every country in the world would consider someone like that a hero within that country.
 
McCain was born wealthy. He could have avoided service just like so many other chickenhawks like George Bush. He was also offered early release due to him being the son of an admiral. He didn't shirk his duty either time. Once you get past nobbys silly rant, it's pretty clear that almost every country in the world would consider someone like that a hero within that country.

Including the Islamic nation. Mccain chose to bomb. What a hero! My god, can you imagine if some of the Islamic posters on here started telling you guys what a massive hero Bun Laden was. You guys would shit yourselves
 
I still don´t see anything heroic about over 5 million sorties flown over Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. I refuse. Maybe Americans should learn from the Germans a bit of humility and decency and repentance. All as I see are the contrary.

Maybe you should stop seeing things that aren't there to fit your agenda. Calling him a hero within domestic American political discourse is so very far from offensive. It's not like the state department sent McCain around the world to be feted by every government.
 
Maybe you should stop seeing things that aren't there to fit your agenda. Calling him a hero within domestic American political discourse is so very far from offensive. It's not like the state department sent McCain around the world to be feted by every government.

And your agenda seems to be kissing the American military ass. I refuse to.
 
I still don´t see anything heroic about over 5 million sorties flown over Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. I refuse. Maybe Americans should learn from the Germans a bit of humility and decency and repentance. All as I see are the contrary.

The Germans were forced into humility by losing a world war and suffering massive geographical and economic punishments for nearly 50 years because of it. Again, name me a country who've willingly refused to respect their own military veterans on the scale you seem to think appropriate? You're arguing with two liberals here, you're getting a fairly soft opposition tbf. It's just your argument isn't very objective. In fact America's counter culture opposition to the Vietnam war is one of the most significant and iconic examples of homegrown disatisfaction with a national agenda, so accusing "Americans" in general of being anything homogeneous in regards to their war history, tends to undermine your grasp of the high ground a tad.
 
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Nam was such a weird war. The veterans were reviled and ostracized in the US for many years after. Some of the soldiers were cnuts (Agent Orange, napalm, My Lai et al), but still... far cry from the near universal reverence vets of other wars get.
 
This is going away from the thread, but on this subject of heroes, I'd be interested to know how people like Lord Dalhousie, Robert Clive and even General Dyer are seen in England...(of course if they are discussed in history at all)
When I was taught history in school (in India), leftists were in charge of the textbooks so it was always the lords and generals rather than individual soldiers who were the villains. Both British and Indian sepoys were painted as people put in that position out of compulsion rather than choice. Soldiers who refused orders were of course heroic.

About McCain as a war hero, unlike in Germany, there has been no change in the 'government' (or state may be a better word here) in the US since their Vietnam days (Obama can be seen as Nixon/LBJ's successor, and the same for UK since its colonial days (Cameron - Churchill) while it's tough to see Merkel as Hitler's successor.) Even then I don't think non-SS German soldiers are vilified, some may even be treated as heroes in modern anti-Nazi Germany?
 
The Germans were forced into humility by losing a world war and suffering massive geographical and economic punishments for nearly 50 years because of it. Again, name me a country who've willingly refused to respect their own military veterans on the scale you seem to think appropriate? You're arguing with two liberals here, you're getting a fairly soft opposition tbf. It's just your argument isn't very objective. In fact America's counter culture opposition to the Vietnam war is one of the most significant and iconic examples of homegrown disatisfaction with a national agenda, so accusing "Americans" in general of being anything homogeneous in regards to their war history, tends to undermine your grasp of the high ground a tad.

It would be a great thing for the world if the Americans and their military were forced into humility, but obviously that ain´t going to happen. Soft as the liberal opposition is on here, they all seem to be heroing up old John, which goes to show, there´s not much opposition to deeming John as a hero. You´re also mistaking opposition to the war and deeming John McCain a hero. Yes there was and is massive opposition to the war, but there doesn´t seem to be much opposition to John´s hero status at all.

I just can´t bring myself to consider anyone a hero who was a willing and gun ho participant in the most vile act of war and savagery and genocide since world war 2. You could argue Pol Pot was worse, but you could also argue he was undeniably the product of America´s outrageous bombing of Southeast Asia, thus a part of it.

Again, if muslim posters were on here singing the heroic praises of Bin Laden, the 9/11 hijackers or car bombers against American troops, or Serbians bigging up their war heroes in the Yugoslavian break up, you guys would go apeshit with outrage. Rightly so.

It´s the American exceptionalism I refuse to buy into. If you and others find no problem with heroising the willing, unrepentant participants of genocide and slaughter in the most vile form of massive massive bombing raids (read up on it) on a peasant nation, then that´s your choice. One thing is respecting his bravery and resolution, another is to call him an American hero
 
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It would be a great thing for the world if the Americans and their military were forced into humility, but obviously that ain´t going to happen. Soft as the liberal opposition is on here, they all seem to be heroing up old John, which goes to show, there´s not much opposition to deeming John as a hero. You´re also mistaking opposition to the war and deeming John McCain a hero. Yes there was and is massive opposition to the war, but there doesn´t seem to be much opposition to John´s hero status at all.

I just can´t bring myself to consider anyone a hero who was a willing and gun ho participant in the most vile act of war and savagery and genocide since world war 2. You could argue Pol Pot was worse, but you could also argue he was undeniably the product of America´s outrageous bombing of Southeast Asia, thus a part of it.

Again, if muslim posters were on here singing the heroic praises of Bin Laden, the 9/11 hijackers or car bombers against American troops, or Serbians bigging up their war heroes in the Yugoslavian break up, you guys would go apeshit with outrage. Rightly so.

It´s the American exceptionalism I refuse to buy into. If you and others find no problem with heroising the willing, unrepentant participants of genocide and slaughter in the most vile form of massive massive bombing raids (read up on it) on a peasant nation, then that´s your choice. One thing is respecting his bravery and resolution, another is to call him an American hero

I don't see anyone celebrating McCain's war record here, so I'm not really sure what the purpose of this crusade to redefine heroism here is all about.
 
It would be a great thing for the world if the Americans and their military were forced into humility, but obviously that ain´t going to happen. Soft as the liberal opposition is on here, they all seem to be heroing up old John, which goes to show, there´s not much opposition to deeming John as a hero. You´re also mistaking opposition to the war and deeming John McCain a hero. Yes there was and is massive opposition to the war, but there doesn´t seem to be much opposition to John´s hero status at all.

I just can´t bring myself to consider anyone a hero who was a willing and gun ho participant in the most vile act of war and savagery and genocide since world war 2. You could argue Pol Pot was worse, but you could also argue he was undeniably the product of America´s outrageous bombing of Southeast Asia, thus a part of it.

Again, if muslim posters were on here singing the heroic praises of Bin Laden, the 9/11 hijackers or car bombers against American troops, or Serbians bigging up their war heroes in the Yugoslavian break up, you guys would go apeshit with outrage. Rightly so.

It´s the American exceptionalism I refuse to buy into. If you and others find no problem with heroising the willing, unrepentant participants of genocide and slaughter in the most vile form of massive massive bombing raids (read up on it) on a peasant nation, then that´s your choice. One thing is respecting his bravery and resolution, another is to call him an American hero


I think the American foreign policy stinks and they should never have gone into Vietnam or Iraq but I do think McCain acted with honour over there, refusing to go home until all his friends were released etc.

I used to like him as a Politician until he picked Palin, then he completely lost the plot IMO, but trying to find a GOP senator who hasnt lost the plot these days is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
 
Crusade? Jesus. Maybe it is time to redefine what a "hero" is. Why not. Seems to be a massive issue in American politics at the moment.

Or is it a crusade to save John McCain´s "hero" status and American exceptionalism?

We were chugging along quite nicely discussing mainly politics in this thread, until you raised the issue, which is obviously a massive thread derailer. In all actuality, the issue isn't McCain and his heroism but rather Trump's grandstanding.
 
We were chugging along quite nicely discussing mainly politics in this thread, until you raised the issue, which is obviously a massive thread derailer. In all actuality, the issue isn't McCain and his heroism but rather Trump's grandstanding.

Oh come on, Trump was obviously questioning McCain´s heroism. And much of the press brought up the GOP´s swift boating of Kerry and how the Republicans were fine with questioning his "heroism." This is all part of the discussion, and something that is a strong current in the presidential elections right now. It´s all over the news.
 
Oh come on, Trump was obviously questioning McCain´s heroism. And much of the press brought up the GOP´s swift boating of Kerry and how the Republicans were fine with questioning his "heroism." This is all part of the discussion, and something that is a strong current in the presidential elections right now. It´s all over the news.

Trump has also called Lindsey Graham an idiot and published his cell phone number to his supporters, and called into question Rick Perry's intelligence. It's all about Trump not McCain, who isn't running, much less his war record half a century ago.
 
Trump has also called Lindsey Graham an idiot and published his cell phone number to his supporters, and called into question Rick Perry's intelligence. It's all about Trump not McCain, who isn't running, much less his war record half a century ago.
Too obvious a point but won't derail nobby from his all too obvious agenda.
 
Trump has also called Lindsey Graham an idiot and published his cell phone number to his supporters, and called into question Rick Perry's intelligence. It's all about Trump not McCain, who isn't running, much less his war record half a century ago.


No one calls into question Rick Perry's intelligence more than Rick Perry, he couldn't even name the 3 branches in government he wants to shut down.
 
No one calls into question Rick Perry's intelligence more than Rick Perry, he couldn't even name the 3 branches in government he wants to shut down.

Yes that was funny. He's definitely revamped his image this time around though.
 
Trump has also called Lindsey Graham an idiot and published his cell phone number to his supporters, and called into question Rick Perry's intelligence. It's all about Trump not McCain, who isn't running, much less his war record half a century ago.

Yes, but you´re obviously missing the bigger point. Trump is calling into question and dividing the Republican party on the supremacy of the Military and the traditional complete GOP submission to the military and vets etc. This is huge I think. You can already see how he is dividing the Republican party, and this will very important to the future. I´m surprised you have missed the ramifications of this. Trump is a clown, but so he is a majority of the Republican party, so it´s not surprising at all this is happening.

It´s also fueling the hard hard right who deem McCain and Lindsey not conservative enough. I can´t believe you would think this is just about Trump.
 
Yes, but you´re obviously missing the bigger point. Trump is calling into question and dividing the Republican party on the supremacy of the Military and the traditional complete GOP submission to the military and vets etc. This is huge I think. You can already see how he is dividing the Republican party, and this will very important to the future. I´m surprised you have missed the ramifications of this. Trump is a clown, but so he is a majority of the Republican party, so it´s not surprising at all this is happening.

It´s also fueling the hard hard right who deem McCain not conservative enough. I can´t believe you would think this is just about Trump.

That's a very odd reading of what Trump is doing. If anything, he is simply clutching at anything or anyone who can help draw attention to his self-aggrandizing goals.
 
That's a very odd reading of what Trump is doing. If anything, he is simply clutching at anything or anyone who can help draw attention to his self-aggrandizing goals.

He is a Republican taking a swipe at another Republican war "hero" for his service, and he is getting support from Fox News and others. This is unheard of. Show me any conservative who has done this. He is being very divisive at the moment, and there are powerful elements taking sides and taking advantage. To say this is just about Trump is way too simplistic. He may crash and burn, but he will leave a glaring scar.
 
He is a Republican taking a swipe at another Republican war "hero" for his service, and he is getting support from Fox News and others. This is unheard of. Show me any conservative who has done this. He is being very divisive at the moment, and there are powerful elements taking sides and taking advantage. To say this is just about Trump is way too simplistic. He may crash and burn, but he will leave a glaring scar.

Trump isn't a conservative by any Republican measure. If anything, he's a self-promoting capitalist who is using his money and Presidential platform to draw attention to himself out of his own half baked, somewhat delusional narcissism. No one in the Republican side is dumb enough to gin up or agree to a platform that attacks military veterans, much less 5 year POWs. There is no debate within the GOP about heroism, the military, or any of that. I'm guessing you've created a massive fantasy in your mind of what you would like to see, and are now claiming its happening.
 
Trump isn't a conservative by any Republican measure. If anything, he's a self-promoting capitalist who is using his money and Presidential platform to draw attention to himself out of his own half baked, somewhat delusional narcissism. No one in the Republican side is dumb enough to gin up or agree to a platform that attacks military veterans, much less 5 year POWs. There is no debate within the GOP about heroism, the military, or any of that. I'm guessing you've created a massive fantasy in your mind of what you would like to see, and are now claiming its happening.

I think someone else is living a fantasy . . .

http://www.ontheissues.org/Donald_Trump.htm

And Trump seems to be getting a lot of support on his John McCain attack.
 
Trump Policies: According to your link....

  • Boots on the ground to fight ISIS. (Jun 2015)
  • I said "don't hit Iraq," because it destabilized Middle East. (Jun 2015)
  • Hit ISIS hard and fast. (Feb 2015)
  • Take $1.5T in oil from Iraq to pay for US victims. (Mar 2013)
  • Iraq should pick up the tab for their own liberation. (Dec 2011)
  • Stop Iran's nuclear programs by any & all means necessary. (Dec 2011)
  • John McCain's actions in Vietnam were not "heroic". (Sep 2000)
  • Use force to stop North Korean nuke development. (Jul 2000)
  • Support Israel, our unsinkable Mideast aircraft carrier. (Jul 2000)
  • No humanitarian intervention; only to direct threats. (Jul 2000)

Seems you're really clutching at straws here. Even the not heroic one liner was a spontaneous comment he made and is in no way a referendum on redefining heroism or even discussing it. Trump has since doubled down on the comment after getting pressure from the general public.
 
In your words - "Trump isn't a conservative by any Republican measure."

That is just such bollocks, I can´t believe anyone would say this. I did´t even mention immigration, racism, and loads of other issues that he is fully in the conservative realm. Maybe he has some non traditional conservative stances, but to say he isn't conservative by any Republican measure is completely clueless. I´m sorry.

- Is there anyone more pro business than Trump???
- "I am now Pro-life"
- Same sex marriage is a state issue
- 0% corporate tax
- Pro capital punishment
- Cut the Department of Education way down
- "Bring on the competition; tear down the union walls"
- "School choice will improve public schools."
-Climate change is a hoax.
-No Cap-and-Tax: oil is this country's lifeblood. (Dec 2011)
- Jobs will slump until our lifeblood--oil--is cheap again. (Dec 2011)
- Enough natural gas in Marcellus Shale for 110 year supply. (Dec 2011)
- It's incredible how slowly we're drilling for oil
- Good development enhances the environment
- Stress importance of a strong family, & a culture of Life
- More sanctions on Iran; more support of Israel.
- ObamaCare is a catastrophe that must be repealed & replaced
- Our nuclear arsenal doesn't work; it's 30 years old. (Jun 2015)
- Increased Veterans Day parade audience from 100 to 1 million. (Jun 2015)
- Defeat ISIS and stop Islamic terrorists. (Jan 2015)
- American interests come first; no apologies. (Dec 2011)
- All freedoms flow from national security. (Dec 2011)
- 3% of GNP for military is too low. (Jul 2000)
- Missile defense is inappropriate; focus on terrorism. (Jul 2000)
- Prepare for bio-terrorism attack. (Jul 2000)

Jesus, I could go on and on.
 
In your words - "Trump isn't a conservative by any Republican measure."

That is just such bollocks, I can´t believe anyone would say this. I did´t even mention immigration, racism, and loads of other issues that he is fully in the conservative realm. Maybe he has some non traditional conservative stances, but to say he isn't conservative by any Republican measure is completely clueless. I´m sorry.

- Is there anyone more pro business than Trump???
- "I am now Pro-life"
- Same sex marriage is a state issue
- 0% corporate tax
- Pro capital punishment
- Cut the Department of Education way down
- "Bring on the competition; tear down the union walls"
- "School choice will improve public schools."
-Climate change is a hoax.
-No Cap-and-Tax: oil is this country's lifeblood. (Dec 2011)
- Jobs will slump until our lifeblood--oil--is cheap again. (Dec 2011)
- Enough natural gas in Marcellus Shale for 110 year supply. (Dec 2011)
- It's incredible how slowly we're drilling for oil
- Good development enhances the environment
- Stress importance of a strong family, & a culture of Life
- More sanctions on Iran; more support of Israel.
- ObamaCare is a catastrophe that must be repealed & replaced
- Our nuclear arsenal doesn't work; it's 30 years old. (Jun 2015)
- Increased Veterans Day parade audience from 100 to 1 million. (Jun 2015)
- Defeat ISIS and stop Islamic terrorists. (Jan 2015)
- American interests come first; no apologies. (Dec 2011)
- All freedoms flow from national security. (Dec 2011)
- 3% of GNP for military is too low. (Jul 2000)
- Missile defense is inappropriate; focus on terrorism. (Jul 2000)
- Prepare for bio-terrorism attack. (Jul 2000)

Jesus, I could go on and on.

Trouble is you're misinterpreting random comments he's made off the top of his mind during pressers as his actual policy positions. He changes his mind routinely and doesn't read off any planned talking points, which suggests he's making it all up as he goes, and you in turn, are falling for it as if he's completely serious. If you're looking for conservatives, see Cruz, Carson, Huckabee and that lot. Trump is not one of them.
 
No, the trouble is, is that you say he isn´t conservative by any Republican measure, and I´ve just proved to you he is very in line with the Republican party with loads of examples. You are absolutely wrong. Admit it. And maybe yes, Cruz, Carson and Huckabee may be more conservative, but big deal, Trump id a hardcore Republican nevertheless.

How did I misinterpret Climate change is a hoax or is pro death penalty stance? There are hundreds of other examples of his conservative Republicanism. What more do you want?
 
Raoul, you're just going by the now-skewed definition of conservative. Trump is definitely conservative, but more of a Cameron-type tory than a Cruz nazi-nutter.
 
Raoul, you're just going by the now-skewed definition of conservative. Trump is definitely conservative, but more of a Cameron-type tory than a Cruz nazi-nutter.

We're not talking about Conservative by British standards. Cameron is closer to Obama in terms of policy than he is most Republicans.

Trump is not a conservative by conservative Republican standards, which is what counts here.
 
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